Chevy Bolt EV Forum banner
81 - 100 of 108 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,276 Posts
I ordered 24294004 a few days ago. I'm supposed to eventually get it: when it's off national backorder. Who knows when that will be but the part is hard to get right now. That might be because of COVID or because GM is stockpiling them for cases where they break and have to replace them to get a customer back on the road. I'll keep my receipt in case GM is forced to do a recall in the future: if they do a recall they may reimburse customers who bought the part. Not holding my breath on that one though. Right now I'll be happy to get the part at all.

Mike
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
41 Posts
Just a quick follow-up on the “unable to charge” error after MSD replacement. I left the charger plugged-in and checked on it after a couple of hours and it was indeed charging.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,467 Posts
I ordered 24294004 a few days ago. I'm supposed to eventually get it: when it's off national backorder.
If it's just a matter of no local stock then you can always go to your dealer and get them to expedite shipment from the national warehouse. I did that when my rear driver side window was smashed in a breakin - they'll charge you the cost of overnight delivery and get it fixed for you the next day.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
228 Posts
Group,

A bit of data on the reported number of MSD failures and the dilemma of trying to fix something at very low incidence.

Reviewing the NHTSA complaint log (it's public data, you can read every complaint) for BOLT EV that mention MSD or are probable MSD failures, that is, the driver reported symptoms similar to those @Vinsuz reported. You can derive approximate numbers of complaints by model year.

To provide a reference vehicle, I chose the Ford F-series, the most popular vehicle by annual sales. The Ford F-250 series has a peculiar steering complaint that causes the vehicle to oscillate when driven on expansion joints over 45mph with a certain load. NHTSA complainants call it the 'roll of death'. Ford has not recalled these vehicles, yet has published a technical bulletin offering an 'improved' steering damper. The Ford bulletin took 3 years to publish.

The numbers. Explanation follows.
MSD failures reported in NHTSA database and Chevy BOLT forum
Chevrolet BOLTFord F-series 150, 250
Model Year
2017​
2018​
2019​
2020​
2018​
Sold (number)
23576​
18020​
16419​
5874​
907000​
Total NHTSA Complaints
53​
8​
18​
1​
632​
Steering
194​
MSD complaints
2​
0​
3​
0​
MSD probable complaints
7​
0​
3​
0​
Forum probable MSD (not NHTSA)
2​
3​
2​
0​
Total MSD (BOLT) or Steering (F-series)
11​
3​
8​
0​
194​
Probability of complaint
0.22%​
0.04%​
0.11%​
0.02%​
0.07%​
Standard Error of all complaints
0.65%​
0.74%​
0.78%​
1.30%​
0.10%​
Probability (MSD) (F-series is steering)
0.05%
0.02%
0.05%
0.02%​
SE of estimate
0.09%​
0.26%​
0.18%​
0.06%​

  • Not all complaints get to the NHTSA. NHTSA complaints are most likely underestimations. However, it does not change the statistics very much if you estimate at 10x the reported rate. Even at 10 times the vehicles reporting an MSD, the sample is still small and creates a large standard error of the estimate. That means you are not sure if you are seeing a small-sample error or a random defect.
  • The MSD appears to be a random error with the relatively small numbers of BOLTs sold. the 2020 MY looks good, as does the 2018 MY. the 2017 MY has the most complaints, yet 2019 comes up a close second. Curiously, the 2017 MY complaints do not grow with time. It seems the early failures were fixed and are not reappearing.
In these low-incidence areas, the manufacturer is in a dilemma on how much effort to put into the fix.
  • There is no clear guidance on what is a dangerous defect. Current ISO 26262 defines four safety levels ASIL A through D, with D being the most stringent.
29802
Click for more information.

  • What gives a defect an ASIL D grade is typically 'controllability' by the driver. If the driver can recover from the defect that's not a D; manufacturers can argue this point to get away from the rating. ICE cars loose power all the time from a myriad of reasons--some braking and steering remain and the drivers, in theory, can recover. Unwanted acceleration is more of a surprise. So, unwanted acceleration gets a D rating, engine power loss, a C or B.
  • Even if the manufacturer knows there is a problem, they need a way out to show they have solved it. It's difficult to come up with a definitive solution if you have low incidence and high standard errors and unknown fuse supplier capabilities.

    My personal observation is the MSD fuse was chosen out of a catalog in 2015 when the design was being finalized. Bussman, or Eton, or OMRON, envisioned high current fuses to live in a nice cabinet under constant load, no vibration, and minimal temperature variation. I am sure their designers were aware of fatigue cycling but did not feel the need to change the design due to the then current rate of complaints.

    Basically, is the engineer making it better by changing the design, or just introducing a new problem?
The better news

  • Fuse manufacturers got the memo. Bussman (GM supplier) and Mersen (EU supplier) introduced new EV pack fuses that comply with JASO D622, a Japanese standard covering fuse operation during cycling and shock.
  • Bussman now is producing EV fuses under IATF 16949, an automotive traceability standard. This is new, as are their fuse line introduced in 2018 and available in 2019. The new fuses are clearly marked 'Electric Vehicle'.
    More info here: EV fuse | electric vehicle fuse | hybrid vehicle fuse
  • Hopefully, these are getting into the supply chain with updated part numbers. If you purchased a new MSD, it would be interesting to post some pictures of the fuse.
29803


My guess is the BOLT engineers took the safest, simplest, approach when designing the BOLT and chose a catalog fuse. As problems appeared, they were in the dilemma of having poor statistics and no clear fix from their suppliers. (It's great to point to fatigue failures, but testing for fatigue is difficult and destructive. You just can't put the fuse in a testing jig, simulate a few cycles, and say the fatigue is fixed. You are not going to convince your management to spend money under those conditions...)

The good is that fuse manufacturers are aware of the problem and see additional business by upping the specs.

Again, If any member has a new MSD as backup, it would be good to have some pictures of the fuse.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,276 Posts
My MSD comes tomorrow so I'll probably put it in over the weekend. I'll try to do a video. I'm not suggesting people do the same but I'd rather be safe than sorry. Fortunately even though the MSD's are on national backorder, if you can get the place you are ordering from to actually place the order, it only takes a couple weeks to come in.

Mike
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
31 Posts
Discussion Starter · #87 · (Edited)
Looks like GM caught up with the issue:

View attachment 29906
I just saw this come through and was going to post this, looks like you beat me to it.
This may also explain the “national shortage”. They were probably preparing for the recall which makes sense.

edit: one thing I just noticed on the recall is it mentioned 2019 cars build from Jan 2019 through June 30th.
I really
Hope they are not missing any potential cars with the issue. My 2019 was built in Dec 2018.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
680 Posts
MikeyBolt has the right idea. Even though my Bolt is out of the recall range when the dust settles I'm gonna get me a new fuse with a EV rating. Life is to precious to be taking chances when a clear and reasonable answer is $111 and a pair of lineman gloves. Money well spent.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,155 Posts
Life is to precious to be taking chances when a clear and reasonable answer is $111 and a pair of lineman gloves.
Just ordered the fuse only for $17 on ebay. I'll throw it in the glove compartment with the gloves. Hey, can actually use the glove compartment for gloves. How quaint. Well, maybe I'll throw it in the voids of the foam insert in the rear hatch.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
541 Posts
Took mine into the dealer today to get the MSD fuse replaced per the recall. No charge but they had to order the part which will be in later in the week.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
180 Posts
Just ordered the fuse only for $17 on ebay. I'll throw it in the glove compartment with the gloves. Hey, can actually use the glove compartment for gloves. How quaint. Well, maybe I'll throw it in the voids of the foam insert in the rear hatch.
Be aware that there are a ton of counterfeit fuses on eBay of all kinds and types. Professor Kelly has an almost 35 minute video on counterfeit fuses at the Weber State Youtube site.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
31 Posts
Discussion Starter · #92 ·
Be aware that there are a ton of counterfeit fuses on eBay of all kinds and types. Professor Kelly has an almost 35 minute video on counterfeit fuses at the Weber State Youtube site.
I couldn’t find the video, could you link it?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,155 Posts
Be aware that there are a ton of counterfeit fuses on eBay of all kinds and types. Professor Kelly has an almost 35 minute video on counterfeit fuses at the Weber State Youtube site.

Thanks for the heads up. I'll give it a good look over when received. Hopefully an EATON 400A 30mm diameter EV fuse is not on the counterfeiter's radar.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,276 Posts
Be aware that there are a ton of counterfeit fuses on eBay of all kinds and types. Professor Kelly has an almost 35 minute video on counterfeit fuses at the Weber State Youtube site.
That was my fear. I was considering just replacing the fuse but if you go to legit resellers and try to buy the fuse only, it costs more than the whole 24294004 part. I saw them on eBay and thought... I don't want to risk it.

Mike
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,276 Posts
According to the Weber Auto video, if you let the bad one blow while you are driving, it makes the computer think the car was in an accident and it won't drive even after you put in a new fuse until a dealer scan tool is used to clear the codes. So don't depend on having a spare and being able to pop it in on the road. It's not clear if a hand-held code reader/resetter would work as Weber implies the codes are "critical" and can only be reset by a dealer.

Mike
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,155 Posts
So don't depend on having a spare and being able to pop it in on the road.
Here's my projected scenario for the next 5 years. Use my warranty's free tow to the nearest Chevrolet dealer and when they tell me they need to order the part and it will take a couple days, I whip out my spare fuse and make them install it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
172 Posts
IF you accept the idea that there is a possibility that the MSD in your BOLT might fail at some point in the future, then I see three ways to address that scenario.

You can do nothing and hope for the best.

You can buy a $17 fuse off ebay, keep it in the car, and hope that when/if your MSD ever fails it does not happen at a inconvenient time or place (like Sunday night in a blizzard). Then get the car towed by some outfit that hopefully can do so without damaging your car. Then sit around a virus-laden dealer waiting room while you wait for a hopefully competent tech to change the fuse without damaging something else in the process.

OR, you can buy a $100 genuine GM MSD from a online parts depot, wait 2-3 weeks to get it, install yourself it in your BOLT at your convenience, and (yes...hopefully) not need to ever worry about that particular problem again.

Being a pessimist by nature, I just ordered a MSD from the nearest GM parts house. GMWarehouseDirect.com Came to $108 with tax and free shipping. They said 2-3 weeks to ship, which is fine with me - not driving much right now anyway.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
180 Posts
My thoughts were as others have said, even if the fuses on eBay are legit and not counterfeit, they could be from the bad batch. Safest thing is to buy a known good one from GM.

Since my build date is right towards the end of the recall, and I don't have a recall notice, hopefully I'm okay. I only use my car for around town, so if it blows it would be a big inconvenience, but I'm not going to get stuck on a trip. I'll just have to keep monitoring the situation.

Is the only way to pin down your build date is to contact GM? If so, who do I talk to? Can the service center tell me?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,143 Posts
I don't trust car companies for much. But I am pretty sure they know if your Bolt has one of the suspect fuses, and will notify you, one way or another, if you are on the list.
 
81 - 100 of 108 Posts
Top