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Thanks! 7000 miles would be huge, I'll have to re-run the numbers afterwards and see how much it changes.

I'm also looking forward to running calcs between summer / winter to see temperature range differences.
Yeah, I know there will be some definite differences. Half my commutes for the last two weeks have been heading into 10-15 mph headwinds. The other half have been stuck in traffic. :laugh:
 

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Yeah, I know there will be some definite differences. Half my commutes for the last two weeks have been heading into 10-15 mph headwinds. The other half have been stuck in traffic. :laugh:

All of the EVs I've driven over the years *love* traffic. Headwinds...not so much. Time to find a nice semi to tuck behind...
 

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Discussion Starter #25
Indeed traffic is something EVs excel at, but driving in traffic isn't so useful for logging/measuring energy consumption though.
That's true, though ideal traffic driving is to drive the average speed of the traffic jam, evening out the "inchworm" effect. And that gets a ton of useful low-speed data points, so it's not all bad!
 

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Didn't work for me. Tried planning from my house to my nephew's college - all in the mid-Atlantic region of the USA. I could see the straight line between my start and end points. Soon as I clicked <Plan Route> I was taken to somewhere in the Baltic south of Sweden - obviously with no route on the map.

Thought maybe I was being too specific so I tried more generic location info - city to city - and got a "No route found" message.
 

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What settings were you using to generate the trip?
If you're talking about Level 2 "basic charging stations", then those are shown, you just have to zoom into a city-level view. Otherwise the map gets very cluttered when zoomed all the way out.
Regarding chargers on the map: I'm fine with only showing L3 chargers - makes sense to me. That said, even though I have the Bolt selected in settings, the map defaults to Tesla SC's. Beyond the basic issue of having the Bolt selected and being unable to use the chargers displayed, that seems backwards as I thought Tesla's had decent route planning and charging network info (w/availability) built right into the car.
 

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Discussion Starter #28
Didn't work for me. Tried planning from my house to my nephew's college - all in the mid-Atlantic region of the USA. I could see the straight line between my start and end points. Soon as I clicked <Plan Route> I was taken to somewhere in the Baltic south of Sweden - obviously with no route on the map.

Thought maybe I was being too specific so I tried more generic location info - city to city - and got a "No route found" message.
That is most likely a result of a bug as a result of a routing fix we're trying to implement, would you mind PMing me the details so we can try to fix it? Before, the routing didn't take into account road curvature, so it would plan for very high high speeds on curvy roads inappropriately. Bo has tried to fix this recently, but it's caused a few bugs in the routing, and we'd love test cases that this broke to figure out what's happening.

Regarding chargers on the map: I'm fine with only showing L3 chargers - makes sense to me. That said, even though I have the Bolt selected in settings, the map defaults to Tesla SC's. Beyond the basic issue of having the Bolt selected and being unable to use the chargers displayed, that seems backwards as I thought Tesla's had decent route planning and charging network info (w/availability) built right into the car.
That's very strange that it's only showing Tesla Chargers with the Bolt, what browser are you using? Does it happen in other browsers? It sounds like a bug I need to fix. Perhaps try selecting a Tesla, letting the chargers load, then switching back to the Bolt?

On the L2 note, I had considered adding a "zoom level" slider to the "Slow Chargers" picker, to show slow chargers when more zoomed out, would make it easier finding them in sparse locations (like West Texas).
 

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I checked my "self planned" route made using plugshare against a better route planner, and discovered a (in my opinion) serious problem. It lists a Nissan Dealership in Jackson TN as a CCS station and says I can charge there for 30 min and drive on... this didn't seem very likely to me so I checked that location on plug share, and it has a CHAdeMO station and two J-1772 stations... no CCS. So if I didn't know better and trusted ABRP, I would arrive expecting to charge for 30 min, and actually end up having to charge for 3 hours.

Is there a "report a mistake" link on the ABRP site that I missed?

Later,

Keith
 

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I checked my "self planned" route made using plugshare against a better route planner, and discovered a (in my opinion) serious problem. It lists a Nissan Dealership in Jackson TN as a CCS station and says I can charge there for 30 min and drive on... this didn't seem very likely to me so I checked that location on plug share, and it has a CHAdeMO station and two J-1772 stations... no CCS. So if I didn't know better and trusted ABRP, I would arrive expecting to charge for 30 min, and actually end up having to charge for 3 hours.

Is there a "report a mistake" link on the ABRP site that I missed?

Later,

Keith
Yes, mine also lists standalone CHAdeMO sites as charging points for the Bolt EV. I talked to them about this, and apparently, it's the result of using Open Charge Map (OCM) as opposed to some other data source. Many of the charger locations on OCM have the wrong heads, number of chargers per site, and charging speed.

You can join OCM yourself and edit the charger information, but I've had difficulty using their interface. The search by location feature doesn't really work, and the searches are limited by 100 (no additional pages, just the first 100 chargers that meet the criteria).
 

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Discussion Starter #31
Yes, mine also lists standalone CHAdeMO sites as charging points for the Bolt EV. I talked to them about this, and apparently, it's the result of using Open Charge Map (OCM) as opposed to some other data source. Many of the charger locations on OCM have the wrong heads, number of chargers per site, and charging speed.

You can join OCM yourself and edit the charger information, but I've had difficulty using their interface. The search by location feature doesn't really work, and the searches are limited by 100 (no additional pages, just the first 100 chargers that meet the criteria).
That's somewhere we could use some help, OCM would be great if its interface were better. If you know anyone who's got spare time to donate to a good project, OCM could sure use it. Or if anyone knows anyone at any of the larger, more curated charger databases that could put us in contact with something better than OCM, we'd appreciate that as well!

We don't really want to be yet another charger database, our hands are full enough with route planning and vehicle modelling.
 

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That's somewhere we could use some help, OCM would be great if its interface were better. If you know anyone who's got spare time to donate to a good project, OCM could sure use it. Or if anyone knows anyone at any of the larger, more curated charger databases that could put us in contact with something better than OCM, we'd appreciate that as well!

We don't really want to be yet another charger database, our hands are full enough with route planning and vehicle modelling.
Programming and coding isn't one of my strengths, and the people I know who are good at it do it for a living (so I'm not I could convince them to donate their time).

Given the information you're looking for, I wonder whether a community driven Google Sheet wouldn't be a better option. I could create a form with the criteria, and simply let users submit their information about specific charger locations.
 

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Discussion Starter #33
Programming and coding isn't one of my strengths, and the people I know who are good at it do it for a living (so I'm not I could convince them to donate their time).

Given the information you're looking for, I wonder whether a community driven Google Sheet wouldn't be a better option. I could create a form with the criteria, and simply let users submit their information about specific charger locations.
Yeah, that's the problem, there's few enough of us interested and crazy enough to do programming at the office and also at home. Well, I'll give a shot to reaching out to some of the larger databases again, see if they're more interested since we're getting a larger userbase with all these extra cars coming online in the planner. I'll give a shot to Plugshare, Chargehub, anything else folks use around here that we might have better luck with?

Plugshare in the past especially has been pretty exclusionary, wouldn't even consider us for a very long time, and quoted some pretty high prices last time we asked. I guess that's what you can do when you're the biggest game in town.
 

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Plugshare in the past especially has been pretty exclusionary, wouldn't even consider us for a very long time, and quoted some pretty high prices last time we asked. I guess that's what you can do when you're the biggest game in town.
I think the issue is that you're seen as competition. The same thing is happening with ChargePoint and PlugShare: ChargePoint is no longer updating their stations or installations on PlugShare.

Everyone seems to be jockeying to be the premier route planner and charging navigation. Personally, I think it's a bit silly. The first to integrate with Google Maps wins. So far, none have done that.
 

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Discussion Starter #35
I think the issue is that you're seen as competition. The same thing is happening with ChargePoint and PlugShare: ChargePoint is no longer updating their stations or installations on PlugShare.

Everyone seems to be jockeying to be the premier route planner and charging navigation. Personally, I think it's a bit silly. The first to integrate with Google Maps wins. So far, none have done that.
Absolutely, agreed. Google, I think, is taking the long game. They have the charging stations on the map, but I doubt they'll do any kind of smart routing. Eventually a route planner like ours won't be required at all, you'll just drive whatever route you want, and stop when you're low. Just like in an ICE today.

It's a shame that everyone views us as competition, we're very intentionally not trying to be a charger database, there are already good databases out there.
 

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Eventually a route planner like ours won't be required at all, you'll just drive whatever route you want, and stop when you're low. Just like in an ICE today.
I see EVs getting to a range soon where 95% of charging is done at home, 4% of charging is done at destinations, and 1% of charging is done at "travel" chargers. So yes, route planning will really be a thing of the past at that point.

It's a shame that everyone views us as competition, we're very intentionally not trying to be a charger database, there are already good databases out there.
I think it's the route planner aspect that they see as competition. PlugShare has their own trip planner that they are trying to promote, and it seems like ChargePoint might be working on their own as well (if they don't already have one). The MyChevrolet App already provides one, but I don't know whether it is based on something ChargePoint (or others) have created. It sounds like Jaguar might be trying to integrate PlugShare as their route planner of choice, but I can't confirm that right now.
 

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Discussion Starter #37
I see EVs getting to a range soon where 95% of charging is done at home, 4% of charging is done at destinations, and 1% of charging is done at "travel" chargers. So yes, route planning will really be a thing of the past at that point.



I think it's the route planner aspect that they see as competition. PlugShare has their own trip planner that they are trying to promote, and it seems like ChargePoint might be working on their own as well (if they don't already have one). The MyChevrolet App already provides one, but I don't know whether it is based on something ChargePoint (or others) have created. It sounds like Jaguar might be trying to integrate PlugShare as their route planner of choice, but I can't confirm that right now.
Well, we definitely wouldn't be opposed to working with them to use our planner, would have to figure out what a fair trade would be.

So far, I haven't seen anyone besides EVTripPlanner and vABetterRoutePlanner that actually do consumption-based route planning. EVeryone else does it based on a user-provided range, which doesn't account for a lot of things, like drive speed, elevation, conditions, etc. And you definitely can't calculate reasonable charge times from range alone, you need more information about the car.

On a related note, if y'all know anyone with EVs that we don't yet support, and want them supported, send them my way, I'm happy to add more in!
 

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This is a bit tangential to the main ABRP discussion, but over on the blog there are some claims about how long it would take to charge the Bolt on a 1000 km road trip.

The article claims that you'd spend four hours charging the Bolt on the trip. That seemed high to me, and given that I like building my own models and had just made a model for how long it takes to charge (at a 150 kW charger) from x% to y% that can replicate the numbers people have seen at actual 150 kW chargers, I figured I'd apply it and see what results I got.

In the scenario considered, the car stops every 200 km (124.27 miles) and drive at 75 mph. In a Bolt, we can expect to getting 3.2 miles/kWh at 75 mph. I'll also assume we're willing only run the battery down to 10% to allow some buffer for the unexpected (the closer to zero you go, the less time you spend charging). So, here's how the charging would work out:


  • We arrive at the first stop with 35.3% battery remaining. We charge up to 74.7%, taking 37 minutes to gain 39.4%.
  • We arrive at the each of the remaining three stops with 10% battery remaining. We charge up to 74.7%, taking 56 minutes to gain 64.7%.

37 + 3 × 56 = 205 minutes = 3 hours, 25 minutes​

In a later blog post for the Ioniq, because it didn't have the battery capacity to drive 200 km legs, they reduced the legs to 125 km (77.67 miles). In this modified arrangement, the Ioniq spends only 2 hours, 20 minutes charging, which makes the Bolt look pretty bad. However, for fairness we should allow the Bolt to stop as often and see how it does.

In this case, there will be seven charging stops. Here's the what to do.


  • Drive past the first charging stop without stopping.
  • We arrive at the second stop with 19% battery remaining. We charge up to 50%, taking 23 minutes to gain 31%.
  • We arrive at the each of the remaining five stops with 10% battery remaining. We charge up to 50%, taking 30 minutes to gain 40%.

0 + 23 + 5 × 30 = 173 minutes = 2 hours, 53 minutes​

Much better. Still not as fast as the Ioniq (which isn't surprising given it's faster charging rate), but at least its a fairer comparison.

FWIW, this spacing is very similar to Electrify America's network, which seems to be trying to average about 75 miles between chargers for their cross-country routes. But unless we were trying to maximize speed, probably stopping so frequently to charge would be annoying.

So actually, perhaps a more realistic journey would be:


  • Drive past the first charging station (on average about 75/2 = 37.5 miles away) without stopping.
  • We arrive at our first charging stop, 112.5 miles into the trip, with 19.3% battery remaining. We charge up to 88.1%, taking 56 minutes to gain 68.8%.
  • Drive past the next charging station (allowing us to make decent progress of 150 miles between charging stops).
  • Our second stop requires us to charge from 10% to 88.1%, taking 78 minutes to gain 78.1%.
  • Drive past the next charging station.
  • Our third stop requires us to charge from 10% to 88.1%, taking 78 minutes to gain 78.1%.
  • Drive past the next charging station.
  • Our final stop requires us to charge from 10% to 40.9% to cover the final 59 miles, taking 23 minutes to gain 30.9%.

59 + 2 × 78 + 23 = 238 minutes = 3 hours, 58 minutes​


This actually shows that 75 miles between chargers isn't great for Bolt owners. For speed you should stop at each one, and at 75 mph, you need a bit too much energy to go between two for speedy charging.

It would be better to have 55 miles between chargers, then this journey would be:


  • Drive past the first two charging stations without stopping.
  • We arrive at our first charging stop, 137 miles into the trip, with 28.6% battery remaining. We charge up to 67.3%, taking 32 minutes to gain 38.7%.
  • Drive past the next charging station (allowing us to make decent progress of 110 miles between charging stops).
  • Our second stop requires us to charge from 10% to 88.1%, 67.3%, taking 45 minutes to gain 57.3%.
  • Drive past the next charging station.
  • Our third and fourth stops are just like the second.
  • Drive past the next charging station.
  • Our final stop requires us to charge from 10% to 33.1% to cover the final 44 miles, taking 17 minutes to gain 23.1%.

32 + 3 × 45 + 17 = 184 minutes = 3 hours, 4 minutes​

All this said, I still think that 623 miles in a day is an unrealistically huge amount of driving for most people.

(These times don't factor in time to get off the road and fiddle with the charger, but from what I could tell, neither did the calculations in the blog post.)
 

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In the scenario considered, the car stops every 200 km (124.27 miles) and drive at 75 mph. In a Bolt, we can expect to getting 3.2 miles/kWh at 70 mph.
I assume you mean 75 mph there.

In simplified terms, in the Bolt EV, if you want to maintain 10% battery, 75 mph speeds, and only charge to 55%, you essentially have 85 mile legs with 30 minute stops (assuming >150 A charging).

In practice, you probably would rather make 110 mile legs as the slower charging rate from 55% to 68% would save slop time on very long trips (and make your stops more useful). Basically, 10 to 12 minutes of extra charging time allows you to skip a fourth charging stop completely.
 

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In simplified terms, in the Bolt EV, if you want to maintain 10% battery, 75 mph speeds, and only charge to 55%, you essentially have 85 mile legs with 30 minute stops (assuming >150 A charging).

In practice, you probably would rather make 110 mile legs as the slower charging rate from 55% to 68% would save slop time on very long trips (and make your stops more useful). Basically, 10 to 12 minutes of extra charging time allows you to skip a fourth charging stop completely.
I agree with both, although my model says 10% to 55% takes 32.5 minutes. My final example basically was 110 mile legs (done with 55-mile-spaced chargers).

Question for you, @NewsCoulomb, when you plan a trip, how much do you aim to arrive at the charging station with, and how much does it very either side of the planned amount? I observe that there is noticeable time saved from minimizing the reserve, but also increased risk — for example, the difference between 7.5% and 15% is 30 minutes.

In more detail, for the 1000 km trip, stopping every 200 km, here are the total charging times for different reserve levels:


  • 2.5%, 180 mins
  • 5.0%, 185 mins
  • 7.5%, 195 mins
  • 10.0%, 205 mins
  • 12.5%, 215 mins
  • 15.0%, 225 mins
  • 17.5%, 235 mins
  • 20.0%, 245 mins
  • 22.5%, 259 mins
  • 25.0%, 277 mins
  • 27.5%, 295 mins
  • 30.0%, 316 mins
  • 32.5%, 334 mins
  • 35.0%, 376 mins
(Also, I fixed the typo.)
 
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