Chevy Bolt EV Forum banner
21 - 40 of 40 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
Discussion Starter · #22 ·
Most charging stations I see at Walmarts are Electrify America DCFC stations. I don't think I've ever seen a Level 2 (240 V) charging station at a Walmart.
You may
Most charging stations I see at Walmart are Electrify America DCFC stations. I don't think I've ever seen a Level 2 (240 V) charging station at a Walmart.
You are probably right, but are they at all Walmart? I do notice that at many of the mall in this area are type 2 -

Electrify America charge .43/kw.unless you become a member. I think they are trying to make their money back quicker than some others.

I was talking to a friend just yesterday about EV charging and she said it gave her a headache trying to figure out all the different things you need to know about charging a car... We were trying to figure out what plugs went where, how to compare kws to miles, etc. She said that it was just too much BS to deal with - when she could go to any gas station and just pump gas.

I think she represents many of the potential buyers in the same way.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
350 Posts
And to clarify my earlier point, I DO believe that there are some dealers that would benefit from something like this right now. Areas that are growing rapidly, where the infrastructure is starting to take root, but not all the way there. Even some remote dealers where there are big stretches without chargers cold benefit. I just don't think that this should be a one size fits all mandate for dealers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,127 Posts
I was talking to a friend just yesterday about EV charging and she said it gave her a headache trying to figure out all the different things you need to know about charging a car... We were trying to figure out what plugs went where, how to compare kws to miles, etc. She said that it was just too much BS to deal with - when she could go to any gas station and just pump gas.

I think she represents many of the potential buyers in the same way.
We Buddhist are taught, "There are reasons and there are excuses."
For 99% of US daily use, home charging is sufficient and is infinitely less BS than any gas station. For the 1% outliers, they find their own way.
I can not tell you how many times that I have used their Charger at all hours of the day and night. And while charging it, had free coffee and snacks and talked to curious people about the advantage of having such a fast charger there.
For some of us, having to charge our EV in that manner describes one circle of Hades; definite deal breaker.

jack vines
 

·
Registered
2017 Bolt LT
Joined
·
28 Posts
A dealer that's in a market where EVs are likely to sell will install a low-end DCFC (my local Chevy dealer has one that's good for 15-20kw) for use by the sales and service departments. After all, some minimal level of charge needs to be kept on the cars for sale, and service sometimes needs more boost more quickly than the Level 2 out back can provide. As noted above, they're not in the business of "sell fuel" though. There were a couple of times shortly after I got the Bolt when I pulled in and got 15-20 minutes of electrons, but their station is slow compared to most of the commercial DCFC (even the slow ones like old EVGo), and the charger spots were and are usually ICEd or being used by dealer cars. EVGo installed a station at a supermarket near me (and recently added some spots near the Tesla supercharger site at an outlet mall), do there's little reason to go out of my way to the dealer and negotiate with a salescritter for a slow charge.

Edit: and I installed a L2 at home, so when the 120V isn't enough I can use that.

For further perspective: when I was in for my 2nd battery recall visit, I cruised around their lot a bit. Was pretty empty, partly because they had just resurfaced/resealed it so the inventory had not yet been completely moved back from offsite storage. But they had moved some stuff back. They had 5 2022 Bolts (no EUVs yet) in stock, parked in the far reaches of the lot: 1 LT1, 4 LT2 (alias LT and Premier). They also had 10 Corvettes, and dozens of trucks/SUVs/a few CUVs. And one Malibu. Note: twice as many 'Vettes as Bolts, all parked at or near the main building, and the 'Vettes turn over quickly. 'nuff said about the Real World Of Auto Sales? In N. California.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
341 Posts
The most important thing is to get those level 2 chargers into homes and garages. That's why GM is paying about 70% of the installation cost for the EUVs. The rest of it is covered by Federal and local rebates.
Many people in suburbia use these cars as second cars, for shopping, etc. They like the feature of being able to "fill up" easily at home.

For those people on the road all the time, salespeople, etc, road charging is important. That's where GM needs fast level 3 charging. Where, I understand, improvements are warranted. The '22 Bolts are inadequate for fast level 3 right now. Perhaps they'll be a recall to improve the level 3 charging speed to gas fill-up times.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
205 Posts
Tesla didn't become so popular because of their cars, but because people saw the availability of where their cars could go.
Cars without fuel/juice aren't too much in demand. It's that easy.
Agree, and your point is what exactly? That the public DCFC infrastructure should follow Tesla's lead and build 50 stall stations every 35 miles?

Tesla opens world's largest Supercharger station - Electrek
Tesla To Build The World's Largest Supercharger: Over 100 Stalls (insideevs.com)

The ROI for something like that would take 20 years at the pace sales are going.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
Discussion Starter · #28 ·
And to clarify my earlier point, I DO believe that there are some dealers that would benefit from something like this right now. Areas that are growing rapidly, where the infrastructure is starting to take root, but not all the way there. Even some remote dealers where there are big stretches without chargers cold benefit. I just don't think that this should be a one size fits all mandate for dealers.
Good point EV Fan.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
2,278 Posts
You may

You are probably right, but are they at all Walmart? I do notice that at many of the mall in this area are type 2 -

Electrify America charge .43/kw.unless you become a member. I think they are trying to make their money back quicker than some others.

I was talking to a friend just yesterday about EV charging and she said it gave her a headache trying to figure out all the different things you need to know about charging a car... We were trying to figure out what plugs went where, how to compare kws to miles, etc. She said that it was just too much BS to deal with - when she could go to any gas station and just pump gas.

I think she represents many of the potential buyers in the same way.
And this is why many of us think either a single plug type, or a mix of plugs at all DCFC sites would be key to attracting more buyers.

Even if T sticks to their proprietary plug, a dual plug unit with T and CCS plugs at all network sites would reduce the complexity considerably for the masses. We don't seem to have issues with gas stations having gas + diesel nozzles.

And for the T fans among us, we get why Tesla does what they do. But, this is a much broader that competitive turf wars, or comforting loyal customers. This is a broader concern about helping change public perceptions that cause some of the trepidation that keeps people on ICE.
 

·
Registered
2020 Chevy Bolt and all Tesla models owned by me and my family
Joined
·
641 Posts
And this is why many of us think either a single plug type, or a mix of plugs at all DCFC sites would be key to attracting more buyers.

Even if T sticks to their proprietary plug, a dual plug unit with T and CCS plugs at all network sites would reduce the complexity considerably for the masses. We don't seem to have issues with gas stations having gas + diesel nozzles.

And for the T fans among us, we get why Tesla does what they do. But, this is a much broader that competitive turf wars, or comforting loyal customers. This is a broader concern about helping change public perceptions that cause some of the trepidation that keeps people on ICE.
Most businesses are driven by government grants and if they see a advantage they will jump in.....many dealers have some money if not all for installing charging stations...... ICE focused dealer is always going to be against EV ...because there is many disadvantages for type of business they learn to do.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22 Posts
GM recently had a very public fight with their Cadillac dealer network over required investments for EV infrastructure and equipment. GM told the Caddy dealerships to commit to $200k in spending, or GM would cut them loose and pay them $300k+ to shut their dealerships. 150 Cadillac dealers walked away, rather than commit to investing in EVs.


That should tell you something about the attitude of the GM dealers. They basically said that they know their customers better than GM, and don't believe that they will want or accept EVs. They want to keep selling large ICE SUVs to their aging clientele.

Furthermore, many of these GM dealers are 3rd generation family owned small businesses. They're not sitting on a huge pile of cash like the Honda, Nissan, and Lexus dealers. They often can't justify spending $50k on a Level 3 CCS charger that might only pay them $50 a day. And, the dealer chargers are usually only intended for customers of that dealership, or drivers of that make of vehicle. The fast charger at the Audi dealer down the street is typically blocked by an Audi, and is only really meant for Audis.
 

·
Registered
2020 Chevy Bolt and all Tesla models owned by me and my family
Joined
·
641 Posts
And on the end of the day with all goods and bad.....
Tesla is hard to beat...they have nailed battery and propulsion unit efficiency with very efficient inverter controller and only thing they are fighting is chassis fit and finish....if you happen to own Tesla and any other EV you will realize quickly that what Tesla is giving and always some new features in the updates...is like new car all over again even after couple of years owning. I have grow not to notice chassis in perfection..even my prior car's use to be mostly German made and this was not easy to overcome. Only thing what makes Tesla out of the reach for many people is pretty high price.
Even my girlfriend after driving my Tesla for couple months (she was 2020 Bolt owner) realize that having 100 bucks more or less to finance Tesla is well worth the cost.
And I'm not Tesla Fanatic (Tesla EV or nothing) still have Ford F-350 diesel for pulling my camper when on vacation or needed for my business.
I personally see all EV as equal...but it is up to person who drives it to decide what makes him/her happy.
There are different types of people
Some are after look from outside and care less for anything else.
Then there are people who are well educated and try to find best EV that is not just about the look...but integration of all key elements that make modern EV quite good and reliable as #1 priority.
Good luck.
 

·
Registered
2020 Bolt EV Premier
Joined
·
75 Posts
Great idea, but let's face it---car dealerships will have to evolve over time. The real money in a dealership today (ICE car focused) is from Parts and Service. I worked for a major OEM for my entire career and often attended Spare Parts and Service conferences which included all of the Automotive OEMs (less the exotics such as Porsche, etc). The business model for the car dealer is to be over 100% absorbed on all the fixed expenses of the dealership through parts and service so that when business downturns came, they could still keep the doors open due to not selling new cars. The cost price ratio on parts for the OEM in the supply chain was in the 20 to 40% ratio, and then it was sold to the dealer, and then they sold it to you when you bought the parts over the counter or had the dealership fix your car. Think of ICE car maintenance items (Oil and Filter, Brakes, Transmission Fluid, Radiator Fluid, Mechanical Adjustments, etc). Contrast that to what all of us on the EV forum have had to incur --- surely there are some horror stories but for the most of us, we've made the move to EV for many reasons, and one of them is significantly decreased maintenance. (BTW---I have posted the cost comparison on TOU EV charging in California vs Gasoline which is my big driver on my 2 Bolts of a lease and a purchase. ) I am not saying that dealerships won't have EV service work in the future, but given the recurring maintenance that ICE cars have (whether the service delivery is done through the OEM dealership or an independent shop), that revenue stream is going to be significantly changed, arguably decreased. How many moving parts are there on a Bolt vs an ICE Car will help you understand why mechanical items wear out. (Another good analogy is why the number of tires sold through car dealers is a very small percentage compared to the other distribution channels that took that revenue stream away from auto dealers years ago). On the service front, Telsa is on to something---the more they can disrupt the dealer model, the more they keep the revenue stream within Telsa corporate. Sure there are Tesla mobile service vans and even Telsa service centers (I know, one opened up less than 4 miles from where I live). All I am saying is that the OEM dealer business model is going to go through a reckoning if the EV future comes to pass. Thus, why would they want to try to install DC Fast charging, where the margins will be who knows what ( because after initial investment, their revenue is to buy electricity and sell electricity) where there is lots of competition? We've got Charge Point, EVgo, EA, and others. Economic theory tells us that if everything else is equal such as relative distance to a charger and access to a charger and speed of charging, etc, etc, people will always find a way to buy the commodity good which is lower priced (in this case, electricity). What we are talking about is the selling of electricity. The amount of value add (like a dealer does with trained service people in fixing a complex mechanical vehicle) is going to be nil if dealers were to start popping up DCFC and attempting to charge for it. I unfortunately don't see how OEM car dealers can be successful at this. The train left the station---other firms are more nimble in this business opportunity than ICE dealers.

Have said all the above, I would not argue that the greatest impediment to greater EV adoption is not battery life or range (we'll keep burning batteries to another discussion). No, the issue is how will individuals that live in rental housing (high rise and low rise apartment buildings, condos, trailer parks, etc) actually charge. Is it that the grid will have to shift to overnight charging? Are landlords going to rewire their parking for their tenants? Are tenants' rents going to go up? Who pays for the power that the tenant consumes in these scenarios? Anyway, I don't profess to have a solution for that yet----I would welcome any landlords on the forum who own large complexes or renters who have seen a landlord transform (no pun intended) the charging for your complex to comment on good solutions for the rental housing tenant who happens to own an EV.
Thanks for allowing me to express my opinions on this.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
929 Posts
PS: Nissan already have fast chargers at their dealeships - and are open 24/7
It has been a while since I looked at a Nissan dealer but when I did (2 years ago) they were only L2. Also, they are in the dealers parking lot which is locked after 9pm and on Sunday. In OK all car dealers are closed on Sundays as it is illegal to sell cars on Sunday just like it is illegal to sell Alcohol at a liquor store on Sundays. Apparently getting drunk and buying cars used to be a big problem. Or maybe there was some other reason. I will never know ;)

Dealers here are also required to have a physical barrier around the entire lot. You actually see a decent amount of people here shopping for cars on Sunday parked at the closed gates so then can look at the different cars without a salesperson bothering them.
 

·
Super Moderator
2020 Chevrolet Bolt
Joined
·
1,203 Posts
...They often can't justify spending $50k on a Level 3 CCS charger that might only pay them $50 a day...
I agree with your overall point, but maybe not your numbers. In your example, the dealer would get a return on investment in less than 3 years, which isn't bad for a capital expenditure.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,039 Posts
No, the issue is how will individuals that live in rental housing (high rise and low rise apartment buildings, condos, trailer parks, etc) actually charge.
How many in that group is going to be overpaying by tens of thousands of dollars for a Hummer? GM won't care about that demographic until they start offering more cars that they want.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
350 Posts
How many in that group is going to be overpaying by tens of thousands of dollars for a Hummer? GM won't care about that demographic until they start offering more cars that they want.
I suspect that AEALESSANDRA was thinking more long term. After all, GM has stated their intention to go pure EV.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
2,278 Posts
Have said all the above, I would not argue that the greatest impediment to greater EV adoption is not battery life or range (we'll keep burning batteries to another discussion). No, the issue is how will individuals that live in rental housing (high rise and low rise apartment buildings, condos, trailer parks, etc) actually charge. Is it that the grid will have to shift to overnight charging? Are landlords going to rewire their parking for their tenants? Are tenants' rents going to go up? Who pays for the power that the tenant consumes in these scenarios? Anyway, I don't profess to have a solution for that yet----I would welcome any landlords on the forum who own large complexes or renters who have seen a landlord transform (no pun intended) the charging for your complex to comment on good solutions for the rental housing tenant who happens to own an EV.
Biggest, maybe, maybe not. You pack a lot into your comments, but the grid is likely ok, and can add capacity if demand requires it. But this is somewhat dependent on EV owners avoiding peak demand period charging, chosing to charge when it is far less costly for grid operators to meet demand.

Apartment dwellers with access to L2 at work probably don't need L2 at home in most cases, or could use L1 with an extension cord in a pinch supplement work charging. Sure, multi-family dwellers have a steeper barrier to EV ownership, not always but as a general rule, true.

Perhaps right up there is public charging availability. And, I mean this in a broad sense. It is one thing to have more DCFC sites built, but meaningless if the plugs (or network) are incompatible. This is true even for Tesla owners, and while the SC network is "superior" to CCS networks in some cases, that is not aways the case. If all EV owners had access to full charging speeds at any site, by this I mean CCS + Tesla plugs everywhere (and a few CHAdeMO), and networks didn't maintain exclusivity, many of the availability problems, and more importantly confusion would be eliminated. That also implies no adapters, which in most cases don't allow full charging speeds.

Think back before you owned an EV. If someone told you there are 4 incompatible kinds of plugs for charging, and that you cannot find all of these at any one location, or couldn't use some sites because they don't allow other brands to use their facilities, wouldn't you be confused? Add the topic of kW capacities of EVs and EVSEs, and its no wonder people are confused and put off by the idea of owning an EV. How many ICE drivers really understand what a kW even is? Then, you add limited range (in most cases) and slow refueling times and 95% of car buyers have very legitimate reasons to walk past the EVs on the lot. All of this adds up to a significant barrier that applies to every prospective buyer, not just MF unit dwellers. I believe the US stats are 60% or more of us live in single family dwellings with (potential) access to L1 or L2 charging, and do 95% of our driving commuting to and from work.

Those who are interested in promoting EVs have an obligation to look past the status quo, to look at the situation as an outsider, if we want to have influence on promoting change to make EVs more appealing to the masses. But dealer charging is not really a critical need for the masses, home charging is most critical, followed by workplace, and finally travel corridors. To the extent other locations can help those without home charging options get by, great. But let's address the incompatibilities as well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,504 Posts
PS: Nissan already have fast chargers at their dealeships - and are open 24/7.
As a former Leaf driver who 2 Leafs in total over a span of almost 8 years, no. Many have their charging equipment in blocked off areas when the dealer closes. And, if they have a DC FC, that doesn't mean it's working, isn't blocked or reasonably priced/cheaper than a unit on a major network.

Some of them don't have DC FCs at all.

We've been down the road of Nissan dealers maybe having charging equipment outside their service bays already. Has been going on since Dec 2010. Hasn't gone very well for Leaf drivers. It's not to say that it can't be improved but my level of optimism for this strategy isn't very high.

And, frankly, Nissan's deployment strategy, listings (where? Tesla has maps + great UI in their car for this + https://www.tesla.com/findus/list/superchargers/United States) and how to suggest where to place DC FCs (where?) frankly sucks.
Electrify America charge .43/kw.unless you become a member. I think they are trying to make their money back quicker than some others.
Energy is measured in kWh, not "kw". I doubt Electrify America is even breaking even despite their high prices in per kWh areas.

The demand charges esp. on lightly used sites is likely killing them. I missed the webinar at Electrify America Outreach Webinar and I guess they never made a recording available. Per NewsColoumb "One of the biggest threats to that long-term profitability and sustainability is demand fees. In one real-world example of a charging site in Utah, they are paying $8.55 per kWh dispensed after demand fees, and they are installing grid-tied batteries in order to offset those costs (they stated 80% or 90% of a charging station's costs are due to demand fees)."

You probably don't realize how crazy demand charges can be and how expensive DC FC hardware and installation is.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
209 Posts
Biggest, maybe, maybe not. You pack a lot into your comments, but the grid is likely ok, and can add capacity if demand requires it. But this is somewhat dependent on EV owners avoiding peak demand period charging, chosing to charge when it is far less costly for grid operators to meet demand.

Apartment dwellers with access to L2 at work probably don't need L2 at home in most cases, or could use L1 with an extension cord in a pinch supplement work charging. Sure, multi-family dwellers have a steeper barrier to EV ownership, not always but as a general rule, true.

Perhaps right up there is public charging availability. And, I mean this in a broad sense. It is one thing to have more DCFC sites built, but meaningless if the plugs (or network) are incompatible. This is true even for Tesla owners, and while the SC network is "superior" to CCS networks in some cases, that is not aways the case. If all EV owners had access to full charging speeds at any site, by this I mean CCS + Tesla plugs everywhere (and a few CHAdeMO), and networks didn't maintain exclusivity, many of the availability problems, and more importantly confusion would be eliminated. That also implies no adapters, which in most cases don't allow full charging speeds.

Think back before you owned an EV. If someone told you there are 4 incompatible kinds of plugs for charging, and that you cannot find all of these at any one location, or couldn't use some sites because they don't allow other brands to use their facilities, wouldn't you be confused? Add the topic of kW capacities of EVs and EVSEs, and its no wonder people are confused and put off by the idea of owning an EV. How many ICE drivers really understand what a kW even is? Then, you add limited range (in most cases) and slow refueling times and 95% of car buyers have very legitimate reasons to walk past the EVs on the lot. All of this adds up to a significant barrier that applies to every prospective buyer, not just MF unit dwellers. I believe the US stats are 60% or more of us live in single family dwellings with (potential) access to L1 or L2 charging, and do 95% of our driving commuting to and from work.

Those who are interested in promoting EVs have an obligation to look past the status quo, to look at the situation as an outsider, if we want to have influence on promoting change to make EVs more appealing to the masses. But dealer charging is not really a critical need for the masses, home charging is most critical, followed by workplace, and finally travel corridors. To the extent other locations can help those without home charging options get by, great. But let's address the incompatibilities as well.
Well Said..... I Ditto this
 
21 - 40 of 40 Posts
Top