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Dunno, Bolt with snow tires is a tank. For example last winter, driving to the gym pre Dawn, I'm on the local freeway doing the speed limit (75) and noticing that I'm passing everybody by 10 mph. Huh, maybe there's ice on the road but the Bolt feels rock stable. I slow it down a bit anyway just in case.
Bolt is FWD with weight distribution frontwards. Always been considered a good configuration for slick roads. What's in the ditch after the first winter storm of the season? The AWD vehicles.
 

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The Bolt does have some extreme torque steer if you floor it from a rolling start. And a bucking bronco ride during hard accel if the pavement was washboard. But once you settle in on the highway, expansion joints are not too bad. And honestly, the seat and seat heating is fairly comfortable for me. (5'9, 155lbs, 32" waist, fit mountain biker). The Kona EV I drove had a fatal flaw- the goofy center console rail digs into my knee when relaxing with the cruise control on.
 

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I watch the EVolution with great interest, so yes, I knew about ID4. I believe that most, if not all "clean sheet", purpose-designed EV's come with RWD or AWD. In fact, as soon as there is real competition among EV's, I anticipate all models will be offered with AWD at least as an option.

I did know that the ID4 was RWD however I kind of liked that because of the very tiny turning circle they could achieve as a result.

However, I did watch a video that noted the issue with regen on a RWD vehicle being less effective because of the very issue of skidding on slippery surfaces.

I spent some time in a very snowy part of Wyoming years ago and I swore that if I had to live through another winter it would be with AWD and studded snow tires. Second choice would be FWD with studded snow tires. My RWD car would just go sideways with any application of throttle on an icy street. FWD just pulls the car straight. Sure there is still limited traction but the weight on the front helps a lot. The same was true for my Beetle in the 70's. It just was able to get traction because the weight was on the driving wheels but it still was not as stable as any of my FWD cars.

The adulation of RWD by enthusiast publications stems from the fun of a light car kicking out its tail in a turn when throttle is applied. That is a limited use case and is applicable to few drivers and almost never in slippery conditions.

Real world results can be seen with any number of videos no circulating of young men/idiots spinning out on straight, dry roads in their Mustangs and Challengers.

I do wish that Chevy had offered AWD in the Bolt brothers as it would make it perfect for me.
In the past 10 years only RWD inconvenienced me on 2 occasions, which were #1 Getting stuck on a loose gravel pad, and #3 Fishtailing on a snow-covered road. Nothing like this happened while driving non-RWD vehicles, even though in this period of time I have driven ca. 20% RWD, 70% FWD and 10% AWD. The FWD's did get stuck on a few occasions, but it was kind of predictable.

For me, this concludes the argument as to which is the best layout. I can see how RWD in modern EV's may be less worse than in ICE cars, though.
 

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The squireliest car I ever drove was the Porsche 914-6 I owned. To start with, I had the largest tires that would fit inside the stock fender wells, which precluded the use of chains. But I lived in Santa Cruz, far from snow most of the time… until the very rare occurrence of snow in the Santa Cruz mountains.

The 914’s perfect 50/50 weight distribution went from “riding on rails” when dry to Rocket J Squirrel on snow or ice. I looped or slid into every other snow bank like a pin ball caroming off the power bumpers, including the banks on the wrong side. No matter how careful I was to ease the beast. The 600 lbs per tire just wasn’t enough downforce to overcome the slightest of grade up or down to not start slipping. So about half way up San Jose Soquel Rd, I turned around to go back home to call the boss to inform him that I wasn’t going to make it in even though I tried.


On a positive note, no damage from sliding into stuff. Another advantage of a light car: less momentum to dissipate 🤓
 

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... FWD EV was in a distant fourth place and is so inferior, I would never recommend one for snow country. ..
Can any of this be tested?
I would never recommend RWD in snow country.
Weight distribution is a minor factor in snow/ice traction, imho.

When a RWD is losing traction, or has none, on a hill or ice you have 2 directions to turn the drive wheels, forward or reverse.
FWD is superior to RWD because you have so many directions to 'vector the thrust'.
Maybe my 'snow country' is different. Ice is sometimes in the mix, below or on top of the snow....

And after one winter with WINTER tires on the Bolt, I feel invincible!

Do you know the difference between 'old school snow tires' and modern 'winter tires'?
I have new winter tires waiting for the Spark EV, just watching the forecast...
For some 'unexplainable' reason this has been a crazy warm autumn and winter so far... :rolleyes:
 

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. My RWD car would just go sideways with any application of throttle on an icy street. ..
That brought back a memory from ages ago.

Kansas Turnpike. Ice Storm, as they are called. What looks like glass covered highways.
Slightest uphill, slight crown to the road, as is typical. Traffic tiptoeing....
My friend's father pointed out that the pickup in front of us had 'limited slip differential' because anytime the truck tried to start moving the rear would just drift to the downhill side of the road.
If he had a normal diff it would only spin one of the rear wheels and keep it in its lane.
We had to go around him. Sorry buddy. LSD is not an advantage today....
 
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Somehow, I totally missed this important piece of information.

FWIW, I went to the VW website and scanning pages of fluff, never saw RWD mentioned. I went back and read most of the ID.4 posts on here and didn't notice anyone who drove it mentioning the ID.4 is RWD.

That explains the low regen levels and the lack of true One-Pedal. In slick road conditions, too much RWD regen would result in an immediate skid.

Moot for us, as we would only consider the AWD version, which won't be available until late next year.

jack vines
I didn"t know either
 

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Can any of this be tested?
I would never recommend RWD in snow country.
Weight distribution is a minor factor in snow/ice traction, imho.

When a RWD is losing traction, or has none, on a hill or ice you have 2 directions to turn the drive wheels, forward or reverse.
FWD is superior to RWD because you have so many directions to 'vector the thrust'.
Maybe my 'snow country' is different. Ice is sometimes in the mix, below or on top of the snow....

And after one winter with WINTER tires on the Bolt, I feel invincible!

Do you know the difference between 'old school snow tires' and modern 'winter tires'?
I have new winter tires waiting for the Spark EV, just watching the forecast...
For some 'unexplainable' reason this has been a crazy warm autumn and winter so far... :rolleyes:
My winter experiences are quite extensive and severe in upstate NY. Grew up not far from Tug Hill, look it up.
But my distaste for the driving characteristics for a FWD EV stem from the instant torque that results in severe lack of 'hook up' at slower starting speeds. My Leaf had snow tires just as competent as my RWD BMW's and my Model 3 but it could very well be that the Leaf has little to no traction control comparable to some of the newer FWD EV's. Notice that I grade a FWD ICEV higher than the FWD EV due the weight distribution advantage for FWD that the Leaf or any skateboard design lacks. If the FWD EV had a significant front weight bias, then I would rate it higher but unless the instant torque is better controlled, I doubt I would prefer it over a FWD ICEV, they just spool up more gradually. Of course feathering the throttle in the EV helps but as I originally stated, all things being equal.

@cwerdna has significant seat time in both the Bolt and the Leaf and may be able to chime in on how inferior the Leaf may be but I think he's in sunny California so not really a good test.
My experiences in a Bolt were under good conditions so I can't really compare.
Every car I've had for the last 30 years has had dedicated "snow tires" and "summer tires", each on their own wheels to facilitate swapping them seasonally on my own so I'm well aware of how dedicated winter tires are superior to all seasons which I haven't used since the 90's. If I lived nearer the Mason-Dixon line, then I would, but I only have one car (Model 3) that has to perform in the winter just as much as the summer, therefore I have it set up for severe winter use and like you, with good snow tires, I feel invincible.

And I should add that I could adjust my driving style quite easily to avoid the severe spinning and slipping and pulling through a turn in the Leaf if I kept it in ECO mode. But my other cars didn't require any special settings or input to still feel in control.
I do think however that the Tesla has a very sensitive and proactive traction control that make spinning out and swapping the front with the rear nearly impossible.

Here's what Tesla was capable of with RWD in 2014 in Sweden.

Tesla Model S Ice Drive - Swedish Test Track - Bing video
If drifting is punching out of your weight class then don't try this at home.
Driving Tesla Model 3 In DEEP Snow! - YouTube
Tesla sends out invites for special Model 3 and S Winter Experience in Finland (teslarati.com)
'Tesla Model 3 In Snow' Doesn't Get Much Better Than This (insideevs.com)

Can you post some similar video's of the Bolt outrunning a snowmobile for example?
Tesla Model S P90D Ludicrous vs Snowmobile - YouTube
Tesla Model S P85D vs Snowmobile Drag Race on Ice - The Green Optimistic
 

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The term "all season" has been blown completely out of proportion- they are summer tires that are good in rain.
I take all season as won't turn into hockey pucks and crack in cold temperatures, not as a statement about traction under adverse road conditions.
The other designation that's overblown is "M+S". Defined by how open the tread is, not about actual performance in mud and snow.
 

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1. My winter experiences are quite extensive and severe in upstate NY. Grew up not far from Tug Hill, look it up.
2. But my distaste for the driving characteristics for a FWD EV stem from the instant torque ...
3.Can you post some similar video's of the Bolt outrunning a snowmobile for example....
1. You win! ;)
2. Can't the driver control this 'insta torque'? Seems fine to me.
3. No. I can not.

I'm just patiently waiting for snow and ICE to arrive in the midwest,, with my two EV's on Winter Tires and an AWD gasser on AS tires.
Let's change the subject...:confused:. "Southern vacation destinations accessible with a CCS EV" !:p
 

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And I should add that I could adjust my driving style quite easily to avoid the severe spinning and slipping and pulling through a turn in the Leaf if I kept it in ECO mode. But my other cars didn't require any special settings or input to still feel in control.
I always considered eco mode in my Leaf as the standard and not eco as boost. Which I never once felt the need for in two years of driving and 25,000 miles. It was perfect on snow and ice. *Syracuse, NY)
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
I always considered eco mode in my Leaf as the standard and not eco as boost. Which I never once felt the need for in two years of driving and 25,000 miles. It was perfect on snow and ice. *Syracuse, NY)
You would know snow. IIRC, from my winter visits there, Syracuse gets an average of 115" of snow; more than any other lower-48 US major city.

jack vines
 

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I always considered eco mode in my Leaf as the standard and not eco as boost. Which I never once felt the need for in two years of driving and 25,000 miles. It was perfect on snow and ice. *Syracuse, NY)
I grew up just north of Syracuse and still visit almost monthly so I know it well. The storm of '66 is still vivid. Our road was unplowed and we were 'trapped' for a week. Built a snowfort in the middle of the road. Rode our saucers off the garage roof with no gap between eave and snow. Our car was a slight bump at about 6'. Those were the days. Was in Pulaski about 12 years ago when we had 5+' in 2 days I think.
I don't think I ever got stuck with the Leaf, it just unleashed all 107 HP all at once.;)
I rarely used ECO as I was addicted to the snappiness. I think I see my problem.
 

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Why is that?
Are you saying RWD EV's don't get stuck in ice or snow conditions?
I've been stuck for the last time in a RWD. When it happens your choices are forward or backward.
I'll still get stuck behind them... :cautious:
With a FWD car you can usually claw your way out of being stuck.

And if you really want to up your winter driving game get Winter Tires.
Not old school snow tires but new gen Winter Tires that test great on ice and snow.
That is because in a FWD ICE car most of the weight is over the front wheels due to the engine and transmission being in the front of the car, aiding in traction on low grip surfaces. In an EV you have much closer to 50/50 weight distribution because the majority of the drivetrain weight is the battery located between the front and rear wheels, with much less weight being in the form of the electric motor. The weight bias ends up being slightly toward which ever end has the electric motor adding weight... no advantage to FWD OR RWD on ice / snow in and EV.

Keith
 

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True. High CG, high cross wind area, and false AWD security chooses not to use snow tires. The term "all season" has been blown completely out of proportion- they are summer tires that are good in rain.

Identical cars other than one being AWD with all season tires and the other being FWD with dedicated snow tires.

TL DR for those who don't want to watch the video. The AWD with all seasons accelerates better. The FWD with snow tires brakes better. Virtually identical lap times on a snow course.

Keith
 

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Let's change the subject...:confused:. "Southern vacation destinations accessible with a CCS EV" !:p
Everywhere :)

Before getting the Tesla Model Y our Bolt was our road trip car. People still seem to have no clue how extensive the CCS network is now compared to just a few years ago (Tesla fanatics say you are lying if you don't agree that only Tesla can road trip). My first road trip to Florida back in 2019 involved a couple instances of using L2 chargers to bridge gaps in CCS coverage. Now with Electrify America on the scene I haven't used L2 to bridge a gap in a LONG time.

Keith
 
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