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Discussion Starter #1
Wife and I are looking for a long distance (back and forth to/from AZ~Cape Cod, or 2,900 miles one way) EV. Any posters out there who are knowledgeable on the different battery types going into these vehicles and if there is a reason (beside issues of quality control and ergonomics) that one of those EVs would be a better choice than the other?

I "believe" the Tesla Model Y charges at something around 250kW while the Mach-E is around 150kW. Not sure what the real world difference in charging speeds would actually be.

Thanks!

Rich
 

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Wife and I are looking for a long distance (back and forth to/from AZ~Cape Cod, or 2,900 miles one way) EV. Any posters out there who are knowledgeable on the different battery types going into these vehicles and if there is a reason (beside issues of quality control and ergonomics) that one of those EVs would be a better choice than the other?

I "believe" the Tesla Model Y charges at something around 250kW while the Mach-E is around 150kW. Not sure what the real world difference in charging speeds would actually be.

Thanks!

Rich
If we're talking strictly battery specs, we don't have a huge amount of information. The Model Y appears to be more or less identical to the Model 3 in terms of battery, which means when the fastest V3 Superchargers are available, it will charge at about 250 kW from 5% to 20%. From there, its charging speed will taper down fairly rapidly, but you'll get from 5% to 80% in about 30 minutes.

Ford, on the other hand, appears to be using 150 kW charging in the Mustang Mach-E, and their documents state that it will charge from 5% to 80% in about 45 minutes. While that might seem significantly slower than the Model Y, one thing to keep in mind is that the Mach-E's battery holds about 15 kWh more usable capacity. So overall, the average charging speed to 80% looks to be very similar between the Mach-E and Model Y.

Now, a couple of X factors. While Tesla is rapidly upgrading their Superchargers to either 150 kW share or 250 kW unshared stalls, the current CCS infrastructure along the route you're discussing is both consistently faster and more robust. Coverage along that route is adequate at this point for either vehicle, however, and that coverage will only improve from here.

The other big question is efficiency. So far, the Model Y has severely under performed relative to its published efficiency numbers. Granted, the Ys that have sold so far are AWD Performance versions, but their efficiency looks to be no better than what is expected for the GT version of the Mustang Mach-E. So if this trend continues, and equivalent versions of the Mach-E and Model Y have similar efficiency, the Model Y will charge faster in terms of mi/hr but will have significantly less range between stops. That means that over the course of a trip from Cape Cod to Arizona, you're likely to spend a similar amount of time charging, but you're likely to make several more stops in the Model Y.

Of course, that is assuming the best for the Model Y and the worst for the Mach-E. By all appearances, the Mach-E is going to be significantly more efficient than the Model Y, equivalent trim versus equivalent trim. If so (and we'll know if the Mach-E Extended Range gets an EPA estimated range of 330 to 350 miles), the Mach-E will both charge faster in mi/hr and travel farther between stops than the Model Y. Essentially, we're still waiting to see some detailed information and testing that would let us know how the two vehicles compare.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Eric, thanks for your reply and comments. I was hoping you'd respond to my query. As you probably already have figured out I'm not a "Tesla Bro" or whatever a fan of Tesla is referred to these days. At the moment we own three different brands of cars, so we're not married to any particular model or brand of EV.

I'm trying to keep this decision down to basing our final choice of EV to the one most suitable for our need, regardless of maker. It's hard to keep emotion out of the mix. I'm on the Tesla forum (probably one of several) and the horror stories of poor build quality being posted there have caused me to reconsider this company as the place to purchase our "distance" EV.

All I have are photos of the new Mach-E to go on. Having said that, the vehicle is very good looking, with a nicely appointed interior and a well thought out layout. None the less, if the new Tesla Model Y (MY) was being turned out with acceptable build quality, I'd probably not be writing this post and would be perfectly happy to go with the new Tesla.

What we will do is; wait until a few months go by. Examine both the MY and the Mach-E. If the QC of the MY comes up to a reasonable standard, that car will still be under consideration. In that case my wife and I will sit in both cars, hopefully test drive both, and then come to a decision. If it's the Mach-E that gets the nod then I'd put off the purchase for no less than six months after the vehicle was introduced (for at least some of the "new model" bugs to get worked out). So, we're talking sometime in late winter or early Spring before making the purchase.

I appreciate your evaluation of the charging time differences. This certainly indicates to me that between the two models under consideration I ought not over-evaluate one brand's EV over the other.

Rich
 

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Eric, thanks for your reply and comments. I was hoping you'd respond to my query. As you probably already have figured out I'm not a "Tesla Bro" or whatever a fan of Tesla is referred to these days. At the moment we own three different brands of cars, so we're not married to any particular model or brand of EV.

I'm trying to keep this decision down to basing our final choice of EV to the one most suitable for our need, regardless of maker. It's hard to keep emotion out of the mix. I'm on the Tesla forum (probably one of several) and the horror stories of poor build quality being posted there have caused me to reconsider this company as the place to purchase our "distance" EV.

All I have are photos of the new Mach-E to go on. Having said that, the vehicle is very good looking, with a nicely appointed interior and a well thought out layout. None the less, if the new Tesla Model Y (MY) was being turned out with acceptable build quality, I'd probably not be writing this post and would be perfectly happy to go with the new Tesla.

What we will do is; wait until a few months go by. Examine both the MY and the Mach-E. If the QC of the MY comes up to a reasonable standard, that car will still be under consideration. In that case my wife and I will sit in both cars, hopefully test drive both, and then come to a decision. If it's the Mach-E that gets the nod then I'd put off the purchase for no less than six months after the vehicle was introduced (for at least some of the "new model" bugs to get worked out). So, we're talking sometime in late winter or early Spring before making the purchase.

I appreciate your evaluation of the charging time differences. This certainly indicates to me that between the two models under consideration I ought not over-evaluate one brand's EV over the other.

Rich
You're welcome! One other thing to consider, though, is availability. Right now, you can order a Model Y and get it, well, faster than you can get a Model 3. The Mustang Mach-E, however, is, as I understand it, sold out for the first year. To give you an inkling of how much it and Ford are impressing me up to this point, I'm actually regretting not putting a reservation deposit down. Just the other day, someone on the Mach-E forums was lamenting the fact that he was reservation holder #58,000, meaning he's probably still a year away from getting his car.

I'm not regretting it too much, though, because like you, I'm willing to wait for some of the initial bugs to be worked out. Plus, I'm already driving on 100% electricity... well, unless I need to take the F-150 somewhere. I'm perfectly fine with my Bolt EV at present and deferring to brand new EV owners. I want to see as many EV virgin butts in Mach-E seats as possible.

One more thing to consider, though, is that Ford still qualifies for the full $7,500 Federal EV Tax Credit, which means it will have a final cost much lower than the equivalent Model Y for those who can take full advantage of the credit. Unfortunately, though, Ford will be burning through those credits pretty quickly, so if someone can't get in on the early runs of the Mach-E, they might only be getting a partial credit at best. Of course, Congress might pass that EV friendly bill in hopes of distracting from how poor of a job they're doing everywhere else.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
"The Mustang Mach-E, however, is, as I understand it, sold out for the first year. "

Eric, if we eventually opt for the Mustang we'd probably buy it when back on Cape Cod sometime around Spring/Summer of 2021, then drive it back to AZ in the Mach-E that Fall. Kind of early to finalize plans at this point!

Rich
 

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"The Mustang Mach-E, however, is, as I understand it, sold out for the first year. "

Eric, if we eventually opt for the Mustang we'd probably buy it when back on Cape Cod sometime around Spring/Summer of 2021, then drive it back to AZ in the Mach-E that Fall. Kind of early to finalize plans at this point!

Rich
Based on reservations, the number of cars scheduled to go to Europe, and 50000 units being the scheduled annual build, even very late 2021 looks rather optimistic for someone not already on the list.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Based on reservations, the number of cars scheduled to go to Europe, and 50000 units being the scheduled annual build, even very late 2021 looks rather optimistic for someone not already on the list.
Toyotiac, here's what we need;
  • An SUV size vehicle,
  • Decent fast charge speed (150kW anyway),
  • A credible self-driving or semi-autonomous driving ability on limited access highways
There are several EVs coming out in 2021 which I'll be evaluating. There may be a number of others which meet the criteria I spelled out. Should be an interesting next year or so!

Rich
 

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I think a lot of us are in the what next boat. I was able to test drive a model Y and liked the way it drove and that you can use Chadmo stations with an adapter giving you lots of options. I really don't like the center screen and personally I find the rear visibility not borderline unacceptable (I'm not sure I can rely on the car for checking my blind spots). In theory at least, a rear wheel drive version of the Y is coming and this with the smaller wheels should do better as far as range. It also matters a lot to me that the Ford is still eligible for the federal rebate, and I think Ford is going to offer a 360 camera and bit nicer interior. I've personally had some bad experiences with electrify america stations but their newer stations seem to be doing better. My only real concern is not being able to see real life specs yet on the Ford, and whether dealers will ask for above MSRP (my dealer says they will charge MSRP). Let us know what you decide.
 

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All - Correct me if I am wrong: I thought that the philosophy on a (very) long trip was to charge more often, getting SoC (non-nervously) down close to 5%, and stopping at 50-65% SoC. It is far faster to charge from 5 to 50 twice, than 5 to 95 once. I think the Tesla SC charging speed and distance between stations enables this methodology better than the currently-deployed EA route. I am seriously contemplating getting on the Volvo XC40 Recharge list for the 150 kW charging, adaptive CC, good LKA, OTA updates, and advanced safety features. But until we get even our first DC Level 2 EVSE in the state, that will not help me on my home to Baltimore, MD and home to Ann Arbor, MI trips.
 

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All - Correct me if I am wrong: I thought that the philosophy on a (very) long trip was to charge more often, getting SoC (non-nervously) down close to 5%, and stopping at 50-65% SoC. It is far faster to charge from 5 to 50 twice, than 5 to 95 once. I think the Tesla SC charging speed and distance between stations enables this methodology better than the currently-deployed EA route. I am seriously contemplating getting on the Volvo XC40 Recharge list for the 150 kW charging, adaptive CC, good LKA, OTA updates, and advanced safety features. But until we get even our first DC Level 2 EVSE in the state, that will not help me on my home to Baltimore, MD and home to Ann Arbor, MI trips.
Unfortunately, for now, the best strategies are vehicle dependent. For the Bolt EV, it's best to charge to about 65% o 70% between stops, trying to arrive at close to 10%. For Teslas, it's technically fastest to drive as quickly as possible and only charge up enough to make it to the next Supercharger. However, even that could be up for debate because it ultimately comes down to how long it takes to access a charger and get back on the road.

For the Ford Mustang Mach-E, the best trip speed strategy is still up in the air. We know it will have 150 kW charging, but what we don't know is whether that is a flat charging profile, a taper, a step down, or a hybrid step down and taper. Because of the Mach-E's faster charging speeds and the dearth of faster chargers outside of Electrify America, a Mach-E owner's strategy for traveling quickly might be similar to a Tesla owner's. The biggest questions will be the spacing between the chargers and the driver's expectations for the trip.

If, for example, the next Electrify America charger is only 100 miles away, it wouldn't necessarily make sense to charge to 35% just to hit that charger. However, if the next charger after that is 200 miles away and the charger after that is 300 miles away, it would make more sense to charge to 70% or 75% rather than >90% just to skip over the second charger.

Ultimately, though, the Mach-E is getting us to a point where we can drive for 4 hours (maybe more?), stop one time for 45 minutes, and drive another 3 hours. All told, covering over 500 miles with a single meal break. Sure, a car like the Model Y should be able to do that with two 15 to 20 minute charging stops, but each stop will typically add at least 10 minutes of trip time, offsetting any real advantage from charging faster for a shorter period of time.

Essentially, we're finally getting to the point where the driver dictates the requirements of the trip rather than the car.
 

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I'm not a Tesla fan, but if I was going to be spending a lot of time on the road with long distance travel, I'd get the Model Y. The integration of the Tesla maps with Supercharger stations and how well it leads one through the journey from station to station is far better than with any other EV. And, the Supercharger network has a very high level of reliability and ease of use. I think that functionality outweighs all other considerations for those who use it mostly as a long-distance travel vehicle. If your use was primarily local, I'd say get a Bolt.
 

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I'm not a Tesla fan, but if I was going to be spending a lot of time on the road with long distance travel, I'd get the Model Y. The integration of the Tesla maps with Supercharger stations and how well it leads one through the journey from station to station is far better than with any other EV. And, the Supercharger network has a very high level of reliability and ease of use. I think that functionality outweighs all other considerations for those who use it mostly as a long-distance travel vehicle. If your use was primarily local, I'd say get a Bolt.
Same here. I love my Bolt but the Supercharger network is tough to compete against, though at some point I think the saturation of Tesla vehicles will really hurt the availability of Superchargers. But Tesla’s added option of charging at EVGo and others helps offset that.
 

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I'm not a Tesla fan, but if I was going to be spending a lot of time on the road with long distance travel, I'd get the Model Y. The integration of the Tesla maps with Supercharger stations and how well it leads one through the journey from station to station is far better than with any other EV. And, the Supercharger network has a very high level of reliability and ease of use. I think that functionality outweighs all other considerations for those who use it mostly as a long-distance travel vehicle. If your use was primarily local, I'd say get a Bolt.
I would argue the exact opposite. For those of us who do travel a lot, there's no appreciable difference. Tesla's scaffolding primarily helps those EV owners who only occasionally travel long distances and are not interested in learning the ins and outs of public charging infrastructure. However, I can guarantee that if you handed me the keys to a Porsche Taycan 4S at Portofino Hotel & Marina, I could make it to New York faster than a majority of Tesla owners. No pre route planning required.

However, that being said, we actually don't know that much about Ford's integrated navigation system. For all we know, it has all the same route planning functionality as Tesla has built in. Remember, Ford worked out deals with most of the major public charging providers to create a pseudo network based off of all of those charging sites. By the time the Mach-E is released, a majority of those sites might have already activated plug-and-charge functionality, and the activation and billing process would be seamless for the average Mach-E owner.

There are some issues with reliability at some of the public charging sites, it's true, but there are also still some questions about how much of that is user error or issues with vehicle compatibility rather than the chargers and sites themselves. Regardless, a majority of those, too, are likely to be corrected by the time the Mach-E is released.
 

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You really should do some research on your own as I'm sure you do. You will get a lot of opinions here that are subjective that only you can decide are important to you.
I assume you're already familiar with the public charging infrastructure so you have some good data to support your thoughts there. It may be wise considering such a huge financial decision to rent a Tesla Y if possible or a 3 for an extended weekend and do a 1,500 mile trip.
There's also a plethora of videos of real world range/quality/performance on the Model Y on You Tube. Unfortunately, you don't have a lot of similar takes on the Mustang.
Here's a few I was able to quickly pull up that may address your concerns on range. One thing that may or may not be taken into consideration on these as I've not watched them in their entirety is the wheel options. For example, one of the wheels for the performance version weighs 65 pounds each. Not a smart choice if range is important to you. But when ever has a performance version of any car been known for efficiency.



By and large, buyers of the Model Y don't seem to feel that an out of spec panel gap, paint chip or other cosmetic flaw that will be addressed by Tesla anyway, detracts from the overall satisfaction of the car. These are trade-offs that only you can accept or not.

They also recently dropped the price of the Model Y $3k which should also be reflected on the base RWD LR version when it comes out. It's quite possible that by then, there may be even more cost savings to be passed along to the customer.

One thing related to the RWD LR version that I think might be of interest to you is that based on your situation of Cape Cod in the summer and Arizona in the winter, you don't need AWD. Save your money. I think the base Model Y will probably approach $35k as they continue to increase their production efficiencies. According to Sandy Munro, the Model Y is already less expensive than the Model 3 which makes a profit at that price point. So the longer you can hold off, the better. You may get a Model Y for less than you can today and you can test drive the Mustang.

Edit: Don't get the base model if you're doing a lot of road trips, get the LR.


Both the Mustang and the Model Y will be available in RWD only versions which IMO for an EV, is essential. I had a FWD EV and anything other than dry roads, it was a pig on handling when driven aggressively. You may not drive that way so it's a personal preference.


If the Mustang was able to use the supercharger network, I'd seriously consider it if the price was right. IMO, it's the best competition yet for Tesla.
 

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Same here. I love my Bolt but the Supercharger network is tough to compete against, though at some point I think the saturation of Tesla vehicles will really hurt the availability of Superchargers. But Tesla’s added option of charging at EVGo and others helps offset that.
I think I'm with these two. Driving long distance the seamless hook up to the supercharger is important to avoid playing with apps, credit cards or perhaps even moving to a different charger because of "issues". It would be really interesting to do a direct comparison between the two cars cross country.

I am really curious if anyone has any better information on the Mach E's range. Looking at the website, their 300mile range version is rear wheel drive with acceleration times comparable to the Bolt (slower than the Y or other versions of the Mach E. My assumption is the real life range of the Mach E, will be a bit lower than the current estimate, but who knows until we have a car.
 

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I think I'm with these two. Driving long distance the seamless hook up to the supercharger is important to avoid playing with apps, credit cards or perhaps even moving to a different charger because of "issues". It would be really interesting to do a direct comparison between the two cars cross country.

I am really curious if anyone has any better information on the Mach E's range. Looking at the website, their 300mile range version is rear wheel drive with acceleration times comparable to the Bolt (slower than the Y or other versions of the Mach E. My assumption is the real life range of the Mach E, will be a bit lower than the current estimate, but who knows until we have a car.
Here's an infographic ripped from the MMe forum.
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29854
 

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I think I'm with these two. Driving long distance the seamless hook up to the supercharger is important to avoid playing with apps, credit cards or perhaps even moving to a different charger because of "issues". It would be really interesting to do a direct comparison between the two cars cross country.
Both Electrify America and EVgo are working toward plug-and-charge functionality, and it should be ready and available by the time the Mach-E starts shipping.

We don't know how well it will work, but Ford is doing something similar to Mercedes, where it appears that the Mach-E driver will be paying through some sort of SSO that is managed for all public charging providers. So in that regard, the billing will be similar for Mach-E owners as it is for Tesla owners.

As for the moving to different chargers, that can happen with Tesla Superchargers, too. Sometimes, it's the "open urinal" effect, where even at empty Superchargers, someone plugs in on the same shared stall. Sometimes the charger itself is down, and either no one laid the cable over the top of the charger or you didn't notice when you pulled in. Sometimes it's a long wait in line at a busy Supercharger on a busy day.

Yes, there can be reliability issues with the public charging infrastructure, but let's not pretend that the Superchargers are issue-free. The biggest difference I see is that, while the public chargers are going to continue to improve their reliability (as we saw with EVgo in 2016), the Tesla Superchargers are going to continue to be more crowded (as many new Superchargers as Tesla is building, they are falling behind the number of EVs they are selling).

I am really curious if anyone has any better information on the Mach E's range. Looking at the website, their 300mile range version is rear wheel drive with acceleration times comparable to the Bolt (slower than the Y or other versions of the Mach E. My assumption is the real life range of the Mach E, will be a bit lower than the current estimate, but who knows until we have a car.
The 300 miles was a target, and Ford has since adjusted their efficiency estimates up, not down. The information that the usable battery capacity will only be ~88 kWh came after the efficiency adjustments, so it's possible that Ford started dialing back the usable capacity when they realized that the Mach-E was going to be more efficient than they first anticipated. Essentially, they might be reducing available capacity in order to hit that 300-mile mark (making for a better charging experience, giving them space for improvement, etc.).

As for the acceleration, it's really important to compare trim for trim. The Mustang Mach-E extended range has an estimated 0-60 mph acceleration time within .5 seconds of the Model Y LR RWD. It remains to be seen whether either car under or over performs relative to those estimates.
 

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Unfortunately, for now, the best strategies are vehicle dependent. However, even that could be up for debate because it ultimately comes down to how long it takes to access a charger and get back on the road.
You have hit a very important nail on the head. It will soon boil down not to charging speed, but whether the EVSE is broken or they are all occupied! Maybe online "check ahead for availability" will become the norm. I doubt we will ever get to "reservations", though.
 

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Same here. I love my Bolt but the Supercharger network is tough to compete against, though at some point I think the saturation of Tesla vehicles will really hurt the availability of Superchargers. But Tesla’s added option of charging at EVGo and others helps offset that.
By "others" were you referring to Chademo? That maxes out at 50kW I think so good for emergencies only. I agree though that Tesla needs to ramp up the build out of the network on pace with Model Y deliveries.
Has anyone seen the EVGO Tesla proprietary chargers yet?

At 90 miles in 30 minutes, I'm not very excited but like the chademo mentioned above. If you really need it, I'm not going to complain.

I also saw that Florida is installing some Tesla superchargers on the turnpike using the EA money.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Lots of thoughtful posts here. I’ve taken just a few thoughts from various posters:

I find the rear visibility not borderline unacceptable...
Yes, I can’t imagine why such a design went through that way. Sure, you can use the back-up camera in lieu of the rear view mirror, but, common!!

...you can use Chadmo stations with an adapter...
Two issues I see with that; you’ll be limited to 50kW charging, and, reliability of the Chadmo stations has not been stellar.

Charging stations, in general:

Things are changing very quickly in this area. Yeah, Electrify America (EA) has had some bumps in the road, but if you follow the most recent videos of some really long road trips taken by various people, the reliability of the system has improved remarkably of late.

Six months or so ago I’d have said the Tesla charging structure would be the deciding factor. Not so much now. Remember, the Tesla system has lots of legacy 72kW (please correct me if I’m wrong on this) chargers. EA has up to 350kW units!

Furthermore, I’ve been doing a lot of research on routes for our Cape Cod~AZ trip this Fall. EA chargers are all along our route! Indeed, I’ve worked out three different routes to where we’re going, fine tuning the trip. There are now lots of options for chagrining out there, and it’s getting better all the time!

When I first considered this trip I said to myself “no way this is gonna work!” Well, I was wrong. Eric commented on the trip, I went back into PlugShare and actually looked. What it showed me was, heck yeah it was a practical trip!

But until we get even our first DC Level 2 EVSE in the state, that will not help me on my home to Baltimore, MD and home to Ann Arbor, MI trips.
With all due respect, not so! See the PlugShare menu below of a Baltimore to Ann Arbor trip. I culled out all chargers but from EA for the route. It’s a very doable ride! The single longest distance between two chargers is just 95 miles, which is very Bolt friendly!

The trick to using PlugShare is to first get an overview of the entire route, using only EA chargers and CSS connectors. Fine tune the trip from there.

Anyway, this post is too long already. Drive safe all!

Rich

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Baltimore to Ann Arbor 7-12-20 2.JPG
 
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