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So no other BEV gets less than it's estimated EPA range outside of the run dry video? What assertion of mine does this video support? The video shows the Tesla performing to 78% of estimated range. Better than Mercedes, better than Jaguar. If you're looking for pushback debating whether the Tesla exceeds its estimated EPA range, you're not getting one from me so move on to something that actually matters like efficiency, miles per hour, charging speed, charging convenience, locations, amenities, etc. I have no reason to question the results. Data is data. Physics isn't a suggestion, it just is.
I hope the Mach e does better than it's EPA estimates cause right now based on what Ford has published, the efficiency is terrible.
 

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Discussion Starter #102 (Edited)
Wow, this thread is taking up an awful lot of bandwidth! The back and forth bickering is coming to look like it's;
"...full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing."

I don't know who is right or who is wrong in this never ending debate. So, I'll offer up a quick comment on what I'm looking for in our next EV (and not in any particular order):
  • Range (around 300 miles as a minimum, as I'd want to have the potential to charge up to 80%/250 miles in a decent amount of time)
  • Reasonable charging speeds (I dunno, 200 miles in around a 1/2 hour, is that reasonable/doable these days?)
  • Comfort (hey, it's for a distance traveling auto)
  • Reliability
  • Decent build quality
  • Ergonomic controls
I concur with Eric, that until a vehicle is in the hands of users, all we really have to go on is manufacturers representations and some speculation. I suspect just about all manufacturers "fluff" their numbers to the extent they think they can get away with it. Kinda comes with the territory.

I'm buying the model Y because it's here, now. I'm looking at the new Nissan, the Ford, the VW EV, and I'm seeing some really nice cars coming our way. Soon. Real soon. Not sure when, but really soon...

But I need a car now, so it's going to be the Tesla. I have no doubt I'm gonna like this auto. Great tech, nice charging infrastructure, well thought out user interface, decent range, the whole ball of wax.

Yeah, Tesla had better get its quality control issues in hand darn soon, or the other OEMs are gonna eat its lunch, just as Tesla is beating up on them now for being so ahead of the pack. Tesla risks having defeat snatched from the jaws of victory!

Situations change. Rapidly and sometimes in surprising ways. I think the Electrify America series of fast chargers are going to potentially eat into Tesla's advantage. Can't say exactly when, but if they continue with this build out, serious competition is on the way.

I'm not rooting for any particular "team." I'd like them all to win. I will no longer look at any non-EVs to buy. The new technologies are simply too compelling. And, increasingly, becoming quite practical for general transportation use.

Peace all,

Rich
 

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Wow, this thread is taking up an awful lot of bandwidth! The back and forth bickering is coming to look like it's;
"...full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing."

I don't know who is right or who is wrong in this never ending debate. So, I'll offer up a quick comment on what I'm looking for in our next EV (and not in any particular order):
  • Range (around 300 miles as a minimum, as I'd want to have the potential to charge up to 80%/250 miles in a decent amount of time)
  • Reasonable charging speeds (I dunno, 200 miles in around a 1/2 hour, is that reasonable/doable these days?)
  • Comfort (hey, it's for a distance traveling auto)
  • Reliability
  • Decent build quality
  • Ergonomic controls
I concur with Eric, that until a vehicle is in the hands of users, all we really have to go on is manufacturers representations and some speculation. I suspect just about all manufacturers "fluff" their numbers to the extent they think they can get away with it. Kinda comes with the territory.

I'm buying the model Y because it's here, now. I'm looking at the new Nissan, the Ford, the VW EV, and I'm seeing some really nice cars coming our way. Soon. Real soon. Not sure when, but really soon...

But I need a car now, so it's going to be the Tesla. I have no doubt I'm gonna like this auto. Great tech, nice charging infrastructure, well thought out user interface, decent range, the whole ball of wax.

Yeah, Tesla had better get its quality control issues in hand darn soon, or the other OEMs are gonna eat its lunch, just as Tesla is beating up on them now for being so ahead of the pack. Tesla risks having defeat snatched from the jaws of victory!

Situations change. Rapidly and sometimes in surprising ways. I think the Electrify America series of fast chargers are going to potentially eat into Tesla's advantage. Can't say exactly when, but if they continue with this build out, serious competition is on the way.

I'm not rooting for any particular "team." I'd like them all to win. I will no longer look at any non-EVs to buy. The new technologies are simply too compelling. And, increasingly, becoming quite practical for general transportation use.

Peace all,

Rich
Agreed and congrats on your purchase. I expect you will be quite thrilled.
For the record, I'm not picking sides either, I'm trying in my tortured analytical obsessed way to correct truth statements I believe are false, the only way I know how which is verified data.
 

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So no other BEV gets less than it's estimated EPA range outside of the run dry video? What assertion of mine does this video support? The video shows the Tesla performing to 78% of estimated range. Better than Mercedes, better than Jaguar. If you're looking for pushback debating whether the Tesla exceeds its estimated EPA range, you're not getting one from me so move on to something that actually matters like efficiency, miles per hour, charging speed, charging convenience, locations, amenities, etc. I have no reason to question the results. Data is data. Physics isn't a suggestion, it just is.
I hope the Mach e does better than it's EPA estimates cause right now based on what Ford has published, the efficiency is terrible.
It's not about exceeding EPA estimates. It's about not being able to even come close.

As for Ford, you are confusing their target range of 300 miles (i.e., goal) with what will be their calculated EPA efficiency/range. Companies like to set conservative goals, and it looks like Ford is no different. GM did the same thing with the Bolt EV. They set a target of 200 miles. Of course, this same thing happened four years ago, and naysayers (primarily those who owned a particular brand of EV :unsure: ) automatically assumed that the Bolt EV would only achieve about 80% of GM's range goal (160 miles... so ridiculous in retrospect :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: ).

Is it possible that Ford overshot their goal by a similar 20% to what GM did with the Bolt EV? That would result in the Mach-E extended range RWD having an EPA range of about 360 miles. Given Ford's recent adjustments to their efficiency estimates, that seems likely. Whether that means they also used that as an opportunity to restrict the usable battery capacity even more is another question (resulting in a lower range -- maybe about 330 miles), but at 88 kWh, 360 miles would be a combined EPA fuel economy of about 4 mi/kWh.

And I think it's pretty reasonable to expect any modern EV to return about 4 mi/kWh of efficiency in mixed driving, and I'm sure the Model Y RWD will have no problem with that, either. The 4.3 mi/kWh EPA efficiency that Tesla claimed for the Model Y AWD Performance is, however, patently ridiculous. The truth is, though, Tesla isn't likely to get called out on it because it just doesn't matter that much. Most people won't come close to covering 200 miles in local, mixed driving, and most EV owners wake up each morning with a full battery (if they want).

The real issue is with driving long distances, and it's the freeway efficiency numbers that really matter. The EPA tests clearly don't measure that well for EVs, and it appears far too easy for some EV makers to game the results in their favor. Perhaps automakers like Chevy and Hyundai are simply overly conservative on their EPA Highway numbers on purpose and Tesla is just reporting with the minimum due diligence asked of them. I don't know. What I do know from actual driving and testing is that the Chevy Bolt EV achieves its combined EPA efficiency at about 65 mph steady driving, and the Hyundai Kona Electric does so at nearly 75 mph. What I also know from actual head-to-head driving is that the Chevy Bolt EV is within 10% to 15% of even the most efficient Tesla Model 3's real-world efficiency, even at freeway speeds. That should never be the case if Tesla's EPA reporting was remotely accurate. And now we're to believe that the Model Y is just as efficient as the Model 3 is claimed to be? :rolleyes:

Now, for Ford, again... they don't have any of the motives that Tesla has to ensure that their EV looks more capable than it actually is. Ford doesn't need to make their EVs look better. If you don't like the range and recharging times of the Mustang Mach-E, they'll gladly sell you a gas Mustang instead.

Likewise, I'm not schilling for Ford or any other specific EV automaker. To me, this isn't a team sport. My interests are in seeing more EVs sold and seeing the "right" EV go into the hands of prospective owners. That means doing a fair and honest assessment of each EV on the market, doing SWOT analyses, and not pulling punches because one automaker happens to be fully committed to EVs while others are still transitioning.
 

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This is how you have to sell EVs to Americans.

Okay they have GOT to get rid of that high pitched whine somehow. Man that hurts the ears.
 

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Okay they have GOT to get rid of that high pitched whine somehow. Man that hurts the ears.
I actually don't mind the whine. It's unique to some EVs, and if you poll 1,000 performance ICE drivers and ask them their biggest reservation about an EV performance car, "lack of noise" is likely to be near the top of the list.
 
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