[Packard V8]

FWIW, given the looong distances and cooold winters here on the northern frontier, we're not ready to rely on any EV for our road trips. We're considering a PHEV and would probably go with a late Volt, but it's not AWD.

The specifications of the Toyota RAV4 Prime look great on paper, but those car guys I respect who have driven one say it's a dog with fleas. Even Edmunds, who's usually pretty accurate says:
Cons

• Very low handling capabilities
• Longer-than-average braking distances
• Disconnected steering feel
• Uncomfortable front passenger seat

None of the Toyota dealers here have a demo for test drives, so I can't try one myself. Their attitude, "There's a waiting list for the Prime, give us a deposit and we'll call you when it comes. And yes, there's market price adjustment."

Those of you who have hands-on driving experience, are there any AWD hybrids which are more fun-to drive than the RAV4 Prime?

jack vines

 

[Martin D]

Hybrids seem to all have pathetic acceleration as an extension of the design. The only 2 plug-ins I can think of as “fun” to drive would be a Volt or i3 rex. Neither is all wheel drive, and I am only guessing about the i3 since I have neither driven one or read that they handled well (only acceleration).

I hate that you probably have to make it an ICE if you don’t want boring, but I think a fast hybrid is a unicorn 🤔

 

[seattlite]

Maybe its a tire thing. One of my buddies turned me on to some A/T tires for crossovers/AWDs.

Wildpeak A/T Trail

shop.falkentire.com

 

[dah]

FWIW Consumer reports gives the rav4 a score of 88, 3 of 5 for braking and emergency handling. And the Subaru crosstrek (rated ice version but has a PHEV version) a score of 86, 5 of 5 for braking and 4 of 5 for emergency handling (but they say "Plug-in hybrid only provides brief electric propulsion and battery robs cargo space ").

 

[DWalk]

Unless you have steep icy terrain to manage often fwd and good snow tires should be just fine. I live in Minnesota and ditched my f-150 with rear locker and snow rated A/T tires for a Bolt and snow tires and feel just as confident in snow. Just lacking huge ground clearance that I had before. If $$ isn't a huge issue Volvo makes some good awd plug ins.

 

[Packard V8]

From second-hand-but-reliable sources, what drags down the RAV4 Prime are the compromises necessary for it to be built as a FWD ICE, AWD ICE, FWD hybrid, AWD hybrid and Prime versions. The engineers I've spoken with say if Toyota had designed the Prime from a clean sheet, it would be lighter, roomier and drive/handle better. Of course, with the lower volume production, it probably would also cost more.

Unless you have steep icy terrain to manage often fwd and good snow tires should be just fine.

We've lived in the frozen-ass-end-of-nowhere for almost fifty years and have snow tires on our Bolt. And yes, FWD with snow tires is OK until it isn't. Last night and today we've gotten almost a foot of snow. It's doubtful the Bolt will be able to negotiate the unplowed side streets. When the winter trip is going to be through the mountains and hundreds of miles from the nearest tow truck, AWD and higher ground clearance is a must if one is to have any chance of making it.

FWIW, a family member has a Tesla M3 AWD. With snow tires, it's OK on plowed roads, but the low-slung sedan will high center when drifts are more than 6".

jack vines

 

[BobBolt]

FWIW, given the looong distances and cooold winters here on the northern frontier, we're not ready to rely on any EV for our road trips. We're considering a PHEV and would probably go with a late Volt, but it's not AWD.

The specifications of the Toyota RAV4 Prime look great on paper, but those car guys I respect who have driven one say it's a dog with fleas. Even Edmunds, who's usually pretty accurate says:
Cons

• Very low handling capabilities
• Longer-than-average braking distances
• Disconnected steering feel
• Uncomfortable front passenger seat

None of the Toyota dealers here have a demo for test drives, so I can't try one myself. Their attitude, "There's a waiting list for the Prime, give us a deposit and we'll call you when it comes. And yes, there's market price adjustment."

Those of you who have hands-on driving experience, are there any AWD hybrids which are more fun-to drive than the RAV4 Prime?

jack vines

Similar situation here and we settled on a Pacifica. Having run it through various trips through Michigan and Northern Ontario in all types of conditions I would have to say there wasn't any one time that I wished I had AWD. I am guessing the combination of winter tires and the batteries being right behind the front seats puts a lot of extra weight on the front end and traction is no issue. It is a bigger vehicle than we needed but it is also useful when I do need something bigger....it still handles 4x8 sheets when needed and 10' lengths of lumber are no issue with all doors closed.
I'm one of the few guys that move my kids back and forth to college without the need for tarps or cargo trailers (compared to the pick up truck guys).
Now is it fun to drive? Not sure I would use fun but it is the most comfortable and quiet vehicle that I've driven in a long time and that sure is enjoyable.
For us the 50KM all electric range makes it a BEV for 90% of our use and I like that idea better than the previous Toyota Camry hybrid non plug in that we had.

 

[mlbslc]

I cannot speak from experience as to how good any of these are. But if I was in the market for an AWD plug-in hybrid, besides looking at the Toyota Rav4, I would look at the Mitsubishi Outlander and the new Subaru Crosstrek (though its plug-in range is only 17 miles).

 

[DWalk]

Pacifica, crosstrek plug in or a volvo seem to bee some of the best bets. For your situation. Keep us posted on what you decide!

 

[Kbecker]

Where do you live that any of these vehicles can be seen in real life? This is like the frustration list. Only the Pacifica is available around here.

Which to buy? If you find any of them, get it. Bird in hand, etc…

 

[OkieBolt]

If only there was a company that had extensive experience in making PHEV's and full EV's and had existing platforms that could easily accommodate the creation of an AWD PHEV..... If only.

 

[cwerdna]

Hybrids seem to all have pathetic acceleration as an extension of the design. The only 2 plug-ins I can think of as “fun” to drive would be a Volt or i3 rex.

You talking about plug-in hybrids or non-plugin hybrids? There are a lot more non-plugin hybrid and plug-in hybrid models than you might know about...

FWIW, to "bench race", from Consumer Reports' own tests, 2022 Camry Hybrid has a 0 to 60 mph time of 7.8 sec and 1/4 mile of 16.1 sec @ 92 mph. '19 Volt is at 8.0 sec and 16.4 @ 84 mph.

 

[seattlite]

Tucson PHEV? Santa Fe PHEV? Escape PHEV?

 

[Martin D]

You talking about plug-in hybrids or non-plugin hybrids? There are a lot more non-plugin hybrid and plug-in hybrid models than you might know about...

FWIW, to "bench race", from Consumer Reports' own tests, 2022 Camry Hybrid has a 0 to 60 mph time of 7.8 sec and 1/4 mile of 16.1 sec @ 92 mph. '19 Volt is at 8.0 sec and 16.4 @ 84 mph.

I meant both as all- or 4-wheel drive only, but you are correct that I am not shopping hybrids since 15 years ago. I have seen many vehicles with hybrid or plug-in badges that I have no idea what they will do like Jeep, but my general statement is from noticing how slow almost every single hybrid/plug-in badged vehicles tend to be in how they are driven. I also take note of cars displaying speed or effortless out-acceleration.

From my general view of the masses, hybrids are definitely not going to surprise me with being hard to pass when I run out of patience behind them, even when they decide to gas it because they are being passed. Other than the 92 cut-off, V8’s have a hard time staying with me if I want to get there first.

 

[cwerdna]

Fuel Economy comes up with 340 hybrids, but many are dupes.

Fuel Economy comes up with 126 PHEVs, but there are also many dupes.

 

[Martin D]

A Lexus RX 450h Performance has average performance at 0-62 @ 7.7 seconds, and a top speed of 124 mph, but not bad for a hybrid.

Meh.

 

[UnAlpine]

We had two Crosstrek ICE versions. We traded one for the Bolt EV. As it turns out, the Bolt with a good snow tire is about as good as the Crosstrek with all seasons. The only problem is that CHP does not agree with that when it posts chain requirements for non AWD vehicles. The fine grain control offered by the Bolt means that an experienced snow driver will likely be fine in non-California states.

 

[PineNut]

I've been looking at the Rav4 Prime and like what I've seen and read about it. I too haven't yet found one to test drive. The main problem with it for me are the big dealer markups, which you mentioned. However, if you are willing to put a lot of time into finding one, you can get them at MSRP (usually on the east coast in states like Maryland, NJ, NY).

It's fast, even faster than the Bolt (5.8-6.3 sec 0-60 MPH). I read the ride is comfy and it's better and quieter than the Rav4 Hybrid. The 40+ miles it gets on battery only is the best I've seen for an AWD PHEV.

Consumer Reports rates the handling as better than average, though they rate emergency handling as average. They list the stopping distance at 142 ft while the competition is in the 134-138 ft range. I have also read about lack of feel in the steering, and it's been described as a refrigerator on wheels.

You might try test driving a Rav4 Hybrid as a comparison. I think that should give you a good idea about the comfort of the front seats and the feel of the steering. But the larger electric motor in the Rav4 Prime helps the acceleration, noise (especially from the CVT), and ride.

There are higher end (more expensive) AWD PHEV vehicles from BMW and Audi. They will have nicer interiors (not that the Rav4 Prime is terrible) but they don't have as good an electric only range and they probably won't be as reliable.

The Hyundai Tucson and Santa Fe AWD PHEVs are new and probably nice. They cost less than the Rav4 Prime but I'm a bit concerned that they only have a 1.6L turbo engine. It does look like the Tucson accelerates 0-60 MPH in about 7.4 sec which isn't bad. But the bigger Santa Fe is more like 8.4 sec. Hopefully the turbo engine is reliable.

You might check out this Rav4 Prime forum. The people there seem to like the car a lot, though you still see a few issues some have.

Rav4 Prime Forum

 

[Lin19687]

What about the Hyundai Ioniq hybrid, l think it comes AWD but I maybe thinking of the Ioniq5. I'm in my phone so don't want to search.
The hybrid one does like 56-60 mph, non plug in. But most are the 1.6 L engines= slow start of the line.
I'm looking into these now since I no longer have the Bolt and the truck gas is killer 😢

 

[Packard V8]

Back in my ICE days, I never drove boring and/or slow cars. That's why the test drive sold me on the Bolt; it's just a hoot to drive. Seems it's too much to ask for an affordable hybrid to be as quick as the Bolt whether on battery or on ICE.

jack vines