[obsoperator]

I only drove the FWD version, but I had two Priuses. And they now have a (smaller production volume, I think) AWD version. I found it had much better pickup than ICE sedans up to Camry size. I really liked my Priuses, and frequently got 50 MPG. (Not commuting to NYC, however.)

But you've made it clear that testosterone is an important component of your vehicle selection. Clearly you need a Tesla or a Mercedes EV. All I wanted was pickup to enter a 1950's parkway with a 10' entrance ramp-the Prius has that-but also a CVT transmission "roar". But you wrote out load that you need to show off to others, not just achieve your reasonable driving needs. I've lived in western Massachusetts, and a couple of old railroad rails in the back of my C10 Chevy 2WD pickup were enough for me in the winter. Why do you need AWD? I think Subaru now has hybrids, but there is no bulging muscle to be seen on a Subaru. I trust you already know that AWD and a large male member do not help in stopping on ice and snow! In northern NJ, we have SUVs all over the ditches after big storm. Doesn't look like the ads on TV.

 

[PrimerGrey]

“Testosterone”? “Show off to others”? I think I missed that in Packard’s posts. All I saw was that he wants a vehicle that he feels meets his standards for “fun to drive”. His standards clearly are different than yours. Not better or worse, just different.

 

[OkieBolt]

Why do you need AWD

If you have to ask that question then I don't think you understand how beneficial AWD is in every situation.

You have been on this forum about as long as me but seem to have never read any of Packard's comments in the past. Really don't think he is or necessarily was ever a Testosterone show off to others kind of person. He likes a fun to drive car with good acceleration. That is exactly what the Bolt is. A TM3 is a fun to drive car with insane acceleration.

And yes, AWD will not help you stop in ice and snow, Snow tires will help you stop in ice and snow.

 

[RacerX00]

AWD is not beneficial in every situation, they make a ton more sense in BEVs than they do in ICE vehicles but in general you're paying thousands more up front and thousands more in repairs for a system you're never using. Essentially no drivers, not even drivers who think they're good (when they're probably not) apply gas in a situation to avoid an accident where traction is going to make the difference.

Any notion that AWD isn't a waste of money for almost everyone went out the door for me when I started to drive fleet vehicles off-road working at a 20,000 acre wilderness in upstate NY. They were all the oldest FWD vans and only a few were needed to get to the "yeah we haven't tended to this road in 20 years" places and those weren't the newest most capable vehicles ever. That stuff costs money.

How I see it, if you're truly driving in a place that AWD is "beneficial" it becomes prohibitively expensive to buy and maintain cost-effectively.

If your house ends in a sand road or you drive unplowed winter roads frequently, AWD will matter to you. Everyone else is wasting their money unless it's for performance reasons.

Go to the Outer Banks and check out the driveways of locals who live in the 4x4 areas, you're not going to see 2022 Raptors, you're going to see 1995 Jeep Cherokees because you're acutely aware of how disposable AWD systems are where you truly need them.

Those OBX people thank you though, they need a constant stream of rust-free 4x4s to survive on the used market! 😁

 

[Packard V8]

AWD is not beneficial in every situation, they make a ton more sense in BEVs than they do in ICE vehicles but in general you're paying thousands more up front and thousands more in repairs for a system you're never using. Essentially no drivers, not even drivers who think they're good (when they're probably not) apply gas in a situation to avoid an accident where traction is going to make the difference.

Any notion that AWD isn't a waste of money for almost everyone went out the door for me when I started to drive fleet vehicles off-road working at a 20,000 acre wilderness in upstate NY. They were all the oldest FWD vans and only a few were needed to get to the "yeah we haven't tended to this road in 20 years" places and those weren't the newest most capable vehicles ever. That stuff costs money.

How I see it, if you're truly driving in a place that AWD is "beneficial" it becomes prohibitively expensive to buy and maintain cost-effectively.

If your house ends in a sand road or you drive unplowed winter roads frequently, AWD will matter to you. Everyone else is wasting their money unless it's for performance reasons.

Go to the Outer Banks and check out the driveways of locals who live in the 4x4 areas, you're not going to see 2022 Raptors, you're going to see 1995 Jeep Cherokees because you're acutely aware of how disposable AWD systems are where you truly need them.

Those OBX people thank you though, they need a constant stream of rust-free 4x4s to survive on the used market! 😁

We'll agree to absolutely, positively, politely disagree on the benefits of AWD. We've lived and driven in northern tier winters for almost fifty years. A well-engineered AWD with snow tires is a game changer. Those which benefit the most are trucks and large SUVs. Without AWD, they're literally helpless on flat ground when it's packed ice. I know, as I've been stuck enough times.

Currently, neither the Bolt nor my work Ford F250 are AWD. From November to March, driving one of these takes much more skill and caution just to get to the destination. None of my friends can understand how I manage with the old RWD Ford and sometimes it's very difficult. When I go up in the north woods to my partner's machine shop, there is only packed ice. About once a month, I can't even get turned around in front of his shop to go out if I don't have a couple of core engines in the bed on their way to the rebuilder. A RWD truck has to waste considerable energy hauling around at least 500# just for traction.

You drive what works for you, but arguing against AWD puts you in the tiny minority up here. Dealers don't even stock any RWD trucks. The reason I'm still driving my RWD F250 is because I bought it used for less than half what the same truck with AWD would have cost; not a bargain I'd make again.

jack vines

 

[RacerX00]

We'll agree to absolutely, positively, politely disagree on the benefits of AWD. We've lived and driven in northern tier winters for almost fifty years. A well-engineered AWD with snow tires is a game changer. Those which benefit the most are trucks and large SUVs. Without AWD, they're literally helpless on flat ground when it's packed ice. I know, as I've been stuck enough times.

Currently, neither the Bolt nor my work Ford F250 are AWD. From November to March, driving one of these takes much more skill and caution just to get to the destination. None of my friends can understand how I manage with the old RWD Ford and sometimes it's very difficult. When I go up in the north woods to my partner's machine shop, there is only packed ice. About once a month, I can't even get turned around in front of his shop to go out if I don't have a couple of core engines in the bed on their way to the rebuilder. A RWD truck has to waste considerable energy hauling around at least 500# just for traction.

You drive what works for you, but arguing against AWD puts you in the tiny minority up here. Dealers don't even stock any RWD trucks. The reason I'm still driving my RWD F250 is because I bought it used for less than half what the same truck with AWD would have cost; not a bargain I'd make again.

jack vines

So you find yourself going into a turn and saying, "ya know, if I just stepped on it I could power my way out of this" or you get stuck at red lights? You don't seem like the kind of guy who would lie so if you can sit here and tell me with a straight face you've used your AWD systems all the time and it's avoided accidents and getting stuck, then fine, welcome to the extreme extreme minority.

Going from RWD to AWD is also completely different story than going from FWD to AWD, I will 100% cede you that, I'm only talking about your average FWD vs. AWD passenger car.

Also, winter tires is the key word here. All of my safety pet peeves end the second there are winter tires on the vehicle. It's the moron in a Rebel going 60mph on a main road during a blizzard in all seasons that really drive me insane. "Finally, why I bought the truck!" in the heads of thousands of people at once who don't understand how dangerous they're driving. If you're putting winter tires on the car I already respect your approach to winter driving and I have way less issues with you being like, "I spent $4,000 so I don't get stuck, don't care if it's wasted money I care about the right tool for the job no matter what."

 

[Packard V8]

So you find yourself going into a turn and saying, "ya know, if I just stepped on it I could power my way out of this" or you get stuck at red lights? You don't seem like the kind of guy who would lie so if you can sit here and tell me with a straight face you've used your AWD systems all the time and it's avoided accidents and getting stuck, then fine, welcome to the extreme extreme minority.

FWIW, you're talking to someone who has been doing this for fifty years up in the frozen-ass-end-of-nowhere.

Definitely. In snow country, a major safety advantage of AWD is being able to reliably turn off a glare ice side street intersection onto a major arterial. With a FWD with snow tires, but on ice, the ability to get moving while turning ninety degrees is a very uncertain exercise and limits the opportunities to safely merge. With AWD and snow tires, any decent gap in traffic and it's done quickly and safely.

Definitely, going uphill is the same degree of difficulty. FWD loses the front bias weight advantage and the steeper the hill, the worse it gets. Our driveway is much steeper than a sane person would attempt when snow and ice covered. For fifty years, with FWD or RWD, it's always an adventure. With AWD, no problem.

jack vines

 

[RacerX00]

FWIW, you're talking to someone who has been doing this for fifty years up in the frozen-ass-end-of-nowhere.

Definitely. In snow country, a major safety advantage of AWD is being able to reliably turn off a glare ice side street intersection onto a major arterial. With a FWD with snow tires, but on ice, the ability to get moving while turning ninety degrees is a very uncertain exercise and limits the opportunities to safely merge. With AWD and snow tires, any decent gap in traffic and it's done quickly and safely.

Definitely, going uphill is the same degree of difficulty. FWD loses the front bias weight advantage and the steeper the hill, the worse it gets. Our driveway is much steeper than a sane person would attempt when snow and ice covered. For fifty years, with FWD or RWD, it's always an adventure. With AWD, no problem.

jack vines

As I said, I would never call you a liar so I'm not surprised when you say "I use it" and mean it. There are many definitions of winter driving and yours is not the average persons. In suburban NY in winter tires I can get myself to the Walgreens with FWD winter tires in any reasonably snowy condition and if I'm getting consistently stuck the car probably didn't have the clearence to be doing this to begin with. My experience here are the soccer moms who would have saved money on the Honda Odyssey w/ winter tires and been better off practically but drives a Rubicon because of the AWD and it snows and maintains the all-season tires through 4-seasons.

Cruise through the mall parking lot here right now and you'll see more SUVs and cars with AWD than anywhere else probably in the country (people got lots of money here) yet I'm willing to bet less than 5% of them can't be bothered to switch out tires. You're not that person, nor was I ever really ranting and having you in mind to begin with 😁

 

[OkieBolt]

AWD is very beneficial in more than just snow and I will also agree that a 2WD car with dedicated snow tires will do better in snow than an AWD car with All Season or summer tires. That said making 90 degree turns onto inner streets into traffic going 40-50 mph having AWD is a huge advantage. My neighborhood exit goes from concrete in the neighborhood to asphalt and usually has loos material of some sort on the road surface. In my Subaru or my Wife's Traverse with AWD I can stand on the throttle and merge no problem into traffic and be floored from stand still to 45 mph. In the Bolt or my Miata I have to be gradual on the throttle and be almost straight or I will spin. Oh, and if it is wet there better be no cars visible to safely pull out. So, I completely disagree about AWD being useless and not having it in the Bolt is my only real disappointment with the car.

In racing, it very much depends upon the track. Back when the Integra Type R and the WRX were having at it it really depended on the course as to which was faster. Slow in, fast out was the WRX all day long, but long slaloms and the ITR put the WRX to shame. No, if it was we, the ITR had no chance, being able to add throttle in the wet early in the corner was a huge advantage.

Oh, and as for RWD trucks. I had the great misfortune of owing a late 90's Dodge RAM 1500 extended cab long bed with RWD and an open diff. No joke that truck would get stuck on flat ground in wet grass. I know because I did it.

 

[RacerX00]

That said making 90 degree turns onto inner streets into traffic going 40-50 mph having AWD is a huge advantage.

 

[OkieBolt]

Traffic is going 40-50 mph, not me. I am stopped trying to turn into traffic that is going 40-50 mph.