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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So here's my hypothesis: The Bolt is the new 1st Gen Nissan Leaf, with hints of Kia Soul EV.

Because GM didn't have the means to get really far forward (a combination of a ceiling on their talent; the narrative of "let's wait and see what everyone else is doing"; short term profit taking with a quarterly focus at the expense of the long term strength of the company; and a dealer+service network that is not at all incentivized to electrify), the Bolt's resale value will resemble that of the 1st Gen Nissan Leaf and the Kia Soul EV.

The biggest reason has to do with fast charging. The Bolt could hop from DCFC to DCFC, but even die hard Bolt owners know the struggle ahead of them. 50kw charging is painfully slow. In my Soul EV, it took 45 minutes to add to 80ish miles. The problems: 1. even I have a limit as to how much Panda Express I can consume in a day, so one meal at the first stop would allow for 45 minutes. But by the 2nd and subsequent stops, all I'll want to do is lunges, pushups, a bathroom break, and a 20 minute nap / meditation. So with a 30 min max pit stop, the Bolt is realistically a great commuter, and a terrible American road trip car.

In terms of the Bolt's value prop as a commuter, it clearly does well there. But, if simple commuter duties are the real purpose, then look at the Volt, too. The Volt has the means to handle my roundtrip of 90 miles a day, as I have access to free charging at work. If the Bolt is best applied as a commuter, does it make sense to spend a few $K more on a Bolt when my commute allows all EV performance out of a Volt, for less cost?

Now, that points to only Tesla as offering range similar range to the Bolt, and a charge network that fits my 30 minute limit.

Notably, I can buy both a Bolt and a Volt for the price of a Tesla. Two cars for the price of one certainly adds a ton of flexibility. But that also means 2 insurance payments, plus an ICE motor that still needs oil changes, and slow charging all around. Also, the slow charging of the Bolt means that someone in the year 2026 might ask: How long does that take to charge? And be disappointed by that 50kw limit, the same way that we EV enthusiasts of today look at the 1st Gen Leaf's range and wonder how in the world was that ok? (Do a quick CL search for used Nissan Leaf, and see what the used market pricing communicates as to the forward value of that car).

2. I live in the country, and have ample space to park my fleet of cars. But for someone that perhaps has parking constraints, the idea of having a 2nd car to save time spent at chargers (which is the only resource I can't make more of) seems like a real value negative for cars that aren't Tesla. Maybe at some point in 10 years or so, Chargepoint, EVGo, and Electrify America (combined) may have deployed enough DCFC to offer near parity to Tesla's Supercharger network. Those networks will do a lot to help other (meaning, other than Tesla) EV manufaturers to not have as steep of a dive in the resale markets.

BTW, this is a hypothesis. I had a Soul EV and man that car lost value! I got lucky that I recognized it very quickly, and only lost 1k, but the battery degradation was absurd. I also have a Rav4 EV. The best part of that car are the parts not made by Toyota, lol. What I'm trying to flesh out here is will I be better off with a Bolt + a Volt, or stop with the middling steps and just get a Tesla already?
 

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It depends on your needs. If you're going to take several road trips per year, get the Tesla. Otherwise, get a Volt + Bolt. One other consideration....if you have two cars and one is down for some type of maintenance, then you have a "spare". Let's say you wake up one morning and your Bolt has a dead 12V battery...take the Volt. Or it has a flat tire, or....
 

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I bought two brand-new EVs over the past four years for less than one Model 3, and now I own two EVs, each of which suits my lifestyle better than a sedan. If you are a big road-tripper who doesn't own an ICE vehicle or love Tesla's brand I guess Tesla might be worth the premium.
 

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Bolt has 238 mile range, let's call it 200 mile highway. One DCFC charge session and a Panda Express to get another 80% of that, let's say 160 miles. That's 360 miles. Pick up another Panda for dinner, check in to a hotel and get free overnight L2 charging. :)

Day 2, repeat.
 

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People who have actually driven EVs to certain extent realizes that the charging speed is just as important as (and sometimes more than) the drivable range. But then they also know that battery degradation is something they would like to avoid, too. Bolt's 55kW max charging speed is what GM thought was a good balance between those criteria back in 2016. Personally, that itself is tolerable. The real biting part is the heavy throttling that happens under hot or cold weather. That's why I'm a bit relieved that this was addressed in the 2020 Bolts. But here I'm stuck with the 2018 model year, so I have to be more careful.
 

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The biggest reason has to do with fast charging. The Bolt could hop from DCFC to DCFC, but even die hard Bolt owners know the struggle ahead of them. 50kw charging is painfully slow. In my Soul EV, it took 45 minutes to add to 80ish miles. The problems: 1. even I have a limit as to how much Panda Express I can consume in a day, so one meal at the first stop would allow for 45 minutes. But by the 2nd and subsequent stops, all I'll want to do is lunges, pushups, a bathroom break, and a 20 minute nap / meditation. So with a 30 min max pit stop, the Bolt is realistically a great commuter, and a terrible American road trip car.
I guess it depends a lot on what one means by 'road trip.' If you're doing 400+ miles per day on a regular basis, then yes, the slow DCFC speeds will get old fast. But for trips in the 300 or less miles/day range, it should not be that big of a deal. I've accumulated 15,000 miles in the past 9 months, almost none of it commuting, and I can count on one hand the number of trips where I spent more than an hour charging.
 

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The #1 reason I went with a company car instead of purchasing the Bolt as a combo personal/business vehicle is due to lack of charging infrastructure at the time, followed by slow charging speed. I get paid to travel, and it wouldn't be ethical for me to bill time to wait for charging, and I don't want to fudge my time entries.

I probably wouldn't even be comfortable with Model 3 charging speeds for the 1000 miles I may travel. I'm required to take a 30min break every 5 hours, and everything else I'm supposed to log as travel time. I could take longer unpaid breaks, but the point is to get to the destination quickly and not needlessly waste time. A 1000 mile trip probably isn't doable in a single day in an EV.

I've pretty well given up flying for anything less than 1000 miles. The 2nd to last trip from BOI to PDX (400 miles) took 14hrs . Last week it took 24hrs to travel 1000 miles. Air travel is too unreliable for these shorter distances.
 

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We have a Bolt and a Tesla (Bolt was purchased new; Tesla used). My wife can get most anywhere in Southern California and back home without charging. That puts it a couple notches above "just a commuter car". In winter it means keeping the heater off and wearing another layer of clothes, but it works. When we travel together, it's in the Tesla. As retirees we don't have redpoint's time constraints, and we enjoy stretching our legs at regular intervals.

Used Bolts and Teslas can be found at incredibly good prices. I attribute this to the auto industry still not being able to get its collective brain around the residual value of a car that requires almost no maintenance and for which 50,000 miles is no big deal for an electric drive train with a couple dozen moving parts. The thing that separates them from the Leaf/Soul EV comparison is that a healthy range is maintained several years later with Bolts/Teslas; not so much with the other two.
 

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Used Bolts and Teslas can be found at incredibly good prices. I attribute this to the auto industry still not being able to get its collective brain around the residual value of a car that requires almost no maintenance and for which 50,000 miles is no big deal for an electric drive train with a couple dozen moving parts.
I'm not seeing these great deals (yet?). 2017 Bolts seem to start around $17k on autotrader here in California. These are mostly high mileage vehicles. Given that new 2019 Bolt LTs was $22-23k here after incentives only 9 months ago, that doesn't seem very attractive. Secondhand Tesla Model 3 prices are even worse - under $39k, the only thing I could find are cars that have been wrecked. These are for vehicles that were mostly around $42-43k after incentives.
 

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The Bolt is a very good vehicle for what it is. But if something else fits your needs, go ahead and get it. Your car ownership history suggests that you have good judgement for car buying. Or wait a while and some other models will come out that fits your needs better. Things are in a tremendous flux currently...
 

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Or wait a while and some other models will come out that fits your needs better. Things are in a tremendous flux currently...
This!

Many mainstream auto makers are getting themselves lined out on actually producing EV's that are not compliance cars.

From driving the bolt on many cross country road trips, the next EV I purchase has to have at least 150 miles on the highway on an 80% charge with 150+ KW charging with a reasonable taper and not cost as much as my house. Currently if purchasing new that means I can have a Tesla 3 SR+, a Tesla Y SR+, or a Tesla RWD Cybertruck (gahhhh)... but in the near future I will be able to chose from several manufacturers. I may still end up with a Tesla (not a fanboy, not a hatter) but competition will bring out the best in what ever I end up getting.

Keith
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Bolt has 238 mile range, let's call it 200 mile highway. One DCFC charge session and a Panda Express to get another 80% of that, let's say 160 miles. That's 360 miles. Pick up another Panda for dinner, check in to a hotel and get free overnight L2 charging. :)

Day 2, repeat.
Search results indicate that a Bolt takes 1 hour 20 min to DCFC. I understand that charge rate is not linear across time, so I wonder what a Bolt can actually achieve in 30 minutes time.

The real biting part is the heavy throttling that happens under hot or cold weather.
And of course, a few replies later, another important nuance. What a Bolt could absorb in 30 min is one thing; ambient temps will influence it, as well.

What has been people's experience with the magic 30 minute limit at the DCFC?
 

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We have a Bolt and a Volt and feel much better about that than if we had a single (Tesla) vehicle. If there's a problem with one vehicle (which hasn't been the case yet -- MY17 Bolt and MY14 Volt), we'd still have one car to get around in. With a Tesla, who knows if or when I'd get a loaner and how long a repair might take. For all of the complaints about GM's service network for EV's, there are a lot more options (i.e. Chevy dealerships) than there are for Tesla's. Hands down decision for us.
 

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Search results indicate that a Bolt takes 1 hour 20 min to DCFC. I understand that charge rate is not linear across time, so I wonder what a Bolt can actually achieve in 30 minutes time.



And of course, a few replies later, another important nuance. What a Bolt could absorb in 30 min is one thing; ambient temps will influence it, as well.

What has been people's experience with the magic 30 minute limit at the DCFC?
You've got it mostly answered already. The Bolt can see up to about 54 kW under the right conditions. 30 minutes is half an hour, so 54 kW * 0.5 hrs = 27 kWh. If you're getting 4 miles per kWh (a little optimistic for a road trip from what I've read), that's 108 miles of range in 30 minutes. So about 100 miles of range added in half an hour under ideal conditions.
 

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Search results indicate that a Bolt takes 1 hour 20 min to DCFC. I understand that charge rate is not linear across time, so I wonder what a Bolt can actually achieve in 30 minutes time.

And of course, a few replies later, another important nuance. What a Bolt could absorb in 30 min is one thing; ambient temps will influence it, as well.

What has been people's experience with the magic 30 minute limit at the DCFC?
Literature says up to 80% charge in 45 min on DCFC.

This guy got 64 min to go from what looks like 15% to 80%.

27927
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
We have a Bolt and a Volt and feel much better about that than if we had a single (Tesla) vehicle. If there's a problem with one vehicle (which hasn't been the case yet -- MY17 Bolt and MY14 Volt), we'd still have one car to get around in. With a Tesla, who knows if or when I'd get a loaner and how long a repair might take. For all of the complaints about GM's service network for EV's, there are a lot more options (i.e. Chevy dealerships) than there are for Tesla's. Hands down decision for us.
I've been considering this as well.

Re: Tesla - I have been thinking about opening an independent Tesla repair shop for the same reason that independent luxury brand shops exist - they offer the same service, at 20% off. People understand 20% off, it's not a hard sell. I too have read the stories of people experiencing long wait times for repairs due to supply system constraints. But in the context of now and going forward, are those experiences still the rule? I have one anecdotal friend who had a 2 week turnaround for an M3 accident repair (happened in May '19). Between the 5 friends at work (4 x M3, 1 x MS), there have been 0 warranty claims.

Re: Chevy - I remember the Volt community being actively shuffled over to employee pricing Silverados when they came in specifically for the Volt. For all the enthusiasm, goodwill, and general willingess to overlook their dealership and service experience, Chevy killed the Volt, won't bring the Menlo to the USDM, and handicapped the Bolt with a 50kw DCFC that apparently tapers the charge rate. So that's why I'm in this forum - what is it really like to own a Bolt? How has Chevy treated Bolt customers? Can the Bolt be repaired in a timely manner?

Those answers give me a clue about future Bolt life: specifically, would you bet on it being repaired in a timely manner in the future when GM has pivoted to one of it's supposed 30+ all-new EV models by 2022? And Chevy discontinues the Bolt at that point?
 

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Search results indicate that a Bolt takes 1 hour 20 min to DCFC. I understand that charge rate is not linear across time, so I wonder what a Bolt can actually achieve in 30 minutes time.

And of course, a few replies later, another important nuance. What a Bolt could absorb in 30 min is one thing; ambient temps will influence it, as well.

What has been people's experience with the magic 30 minute limit at the DCFC?
I've actually plotted this out in another thread a few month ago:

Under these ideal conditions, 0 to 100% DCFC charging should take 2 hours, while you can get more than 40% charged in 30 minutes if the starting SoC is around 10% as the charging speed would hover above 50kW.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Literature says up to 80% charge in 45 min on DCFC.

This guy got 64 min to go from what looks like 15% to 80%.

View attachment 27927
Holy moley, good find!

For comparison:
That guy's #s for his Bolt at that charge station:
$20.21 bucks for 38kw:
38kw*4miles/kw = 152 miles
$20.21 / 152 miles = 13.2c / mile
-time required: 64 minutes

My numbers with the rental Corolla from Toyota Sunnyvale:

2018 Corolla rental, @ 28.2 mpg (87 octane)
1 gallon / 28.2 miles * $3.11 / gallon = 11.02c/mile
-time required: 5 minutes
-note: winter gas prices, so cost / mile increases in the summer

2018 Corolla rental, @ 31.6 mpg (91 octane)
1 gallon / 31.6 miles * $3.46 / gallon = 10.9c/mile
-time required: 5 minutes
-note: winter gas prices, so cost / mile increases in the summer

What did I learn here? That in the winter, gassing up a Corolla is about the same expense as DCFC for a Bolt (on a cost / mile basis) but the difference in time is incredible: 64 minutes vs 5 minues.

Hypothetical Tesla Supercharging pricing.
For comparison: Bolt achieves 4 mi/kw; M3 = 4 mi/kw; MS = 3 mi/kw; Tesla Supercharge V2, since that is widely more available

Turns out there are 3 pricing tiers:
1. $0.28/kw.
-M3 requires the same 38kw as the Bolt = $10.64. (save $9.xx vs That Guy's Bolt on That DCFC)
- from 13-60% SOC on a Supercharger V2, 75kw/hr rate; time required = 30.4 minutes (save 33 minutes)

(I'll continue the comparison on the next post)
 

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Sorry for the pedantry, but I would like to remind at this point that 'kW" is the "speed" at which the car gets charged and 'kWh" is the "amount" of energy being filled into the car. The equivalent of "gallon" or "liter" is therefore kWh, not kW.
 
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