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Fired up Torquepro today and my BatCap reading was 56.4 kWh. Nov '16 build with ~44k miles.
Hi - what region/climate are you in?
 

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further info/background as to my climate/degradation question(s):

This is a page I put together somewhat recently, but the data available only goes through about 2015.
http://jlaz.com/Files/2015_battery_pia/2015_PIA_battery_chart.html

If I recall, it came up at least in part because I was discussing the air-cooled Leaf e+ with some folks and I wanted to go back and see what was learned from the early liquid-cooled vehicles. One of the issues was, if I recall, that some claimed that degradation in early Teslas was said to be not that bad even in harsh climates as compared to moderate climates, and I wanted to understand if this was true.

Also, if we look at the bottom graph at the link, this shows the degradation as of end 2012 for some early Leafs, and gives an idea of how they did not hold up well (at all) in harsh climates. This chart, and the broader issues behind it, and my own experience (I was subsequently one of the additional hot-climate drivers who saw this first-hand), is probably the top reason that I have not strongly considered another Leaf and am trying to educate myself about used Bolts and Teslas. It is also a reason that, as an interim solution that I could afford, I got a used (liquid cooled) Volt.

I'm not entirely surprised that the Volt I am driving is showing some signs of significant wear-and-tear on the battery. GM made a very good effort in my view on their Gen1 Volt, within the constraints of technology available at the time, ... as I understand it, they tested the heck out of it, and included liquid cooling and perhaps other measures to try to ensure that the battery range would hold up. Also, I do not live in the harshest climate (where I live is considerably cooler than Phoenix). So, one might hope that degradation would not be too bad, but it is still important to see the empirical data as it comes in.

Offhand, I don't know if Plug In America or other sources (perhaps some folks here?) have put together useful data on Bolt battery/range degradation, taking into account mileage, climate and perhaps some aspects of driver behavior (such as frequency of DCFC, etc.). Individual experience accounts are also useful, and until good organized aggregated information emerges, they take on a bit of added importance.
 

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I live at the edge of the Mojave desert, but up at 3000 feet altitude. So I'm about 10 degrees cooler than the hottest parts of Los Angeles. My 2013 Volt still gets 10.4 kWh out of the battery. My Bolt has almost 58k miles. I actually plan to try to get it down to zero, limp home on reduced power mode and blast the heater until the car is dead some time this week. Right now my battery indicator drops to 50% at about 28kWh used, which if accurate would put it at 56kWh. But I never took a baseline on my car.

To a certain extent, degradation does not matter. If 238 miles is good for you, then just doing the speed limit will beat the EPA rating by about 10-15 per cent. So even if you experience 15 percent degradation a worst case scenario will put you back around the EPA combined estimate.
 

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I live at the edge of the Mojave desert, but up at 3000 feet altitude. So I'm about 10 degrees cooler than the hottest parts of Los Angeles. My 2013 Volt still gets 10.4 kWh out of the battery. My Bolt has almost 58k miles. I actually plan to try to get it down to zero, limp home on reduced power mode and blast the heater until the car is dead some time this week. Right now my battery indicator drops to 50% at about 28kWh used, which if accurate would put it at 56kWh. But I never took a baseline on my car.

To a certain extent, degradation does not matter. If 238 miles is good for you, then just doing the speed limit will beat the EPA rating by about 10-15 per cent. So even if you experience 15 percent degradation a worst case scenario will put you back around the EPA combined estimate.
Hi - your numbers, including elevation, and miles and kWh on your 2013 Volt, are similar to mine as of about 6 months ago. Then I started getting Propulsion Power Reduced error messages, I got a recall notice from GM (I'm not sure it was called that, but more or less that's apparently what it was), I took it in for some software work, and voila, I now have about 9.6 kWh usable and some communication with other drivers who have experienced similar. A few nights ago I saw another error message even after I had that service done on the car. I guess we'll see what happens. I did see 110 degrees on the dash the other day.

Thanks for the information about the Bolt. I've heard that fully draining a lithium ion battery is not good for it, but maybe the Bolt has some protection at the low end, I dunno.

I do get that a few miles of degradation here or there on a 200+ EPA mile BEV is not going to matter "that" much, but I'm going to remain focused on the issue as I consider my next move, particularly considering how higher levels of degradation may impact the value of something that costs about a third of what some houses cost around here.
 

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fwiw, this is a table of the data that PIA accumulated on battery degradation of 615 Nissan Leafs.
https://survey.pluginamerica.org/leaf/vehicles.php?order=bars

One can click on the individual vehicles to get a sense of how over various reports the battery degraded, whether a lot or a little. To give an idea, one example in California that lost 2 bars over 50k miles:
https://survey.pluginamerica.org/leaf/vehicle.php?vid=4

I suspect that the Bolt is doing relatively well on degradation, including in hot climates, but it just seems like a good idea to keep an eye out for further information if I can get it, both for my vehicle-buying purposes and general industry-following.
 

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My Bolt has 57,000 miles, more or less. I just rant it down to basically no power, then blasted the heater and air conditioner until both stopped working, which I assumed was the practical end of the battery. I got 56.1 kWh out of it. So if you assume 2kWh is held in reserve that's not too bad. If you assume you start a new Bolt with 60 kWh then it's a little disappointing. But I'll have to wait and see if there's more degradation between now and 100k, or if most of the degradation occurs in the first 50k miles. As a practical matter, just doing the speed limit puts you easily past 238 miles. But if I was "counting" based on kWh hours used, I would hesitate to go past 53 kWh used in my car if I was on a road trip.
 

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My Bolt has 57,000 miles, more or less. I just rant it down to basically no power, then blasted the heater and air conditioner until both stopped working, which I assumed was the practical end of the battery. I got 56.1 kWh out of it. So if you assume 2kWh is held in reserve that's not too bad. If you assume you start a new Bolt with 60 kWh then it's a little disappointing. ........ As a practical matter, just doing the speed limit puts you easily past 238 miles. But if I was "counting" based on kWh hours used, I would hesitate to go past 53 kWh used in my car if I was on a road trip.
"As a practical matter", one seldom does much more than 100 miles between charging, except for the first 200 miles out the door in a morning, so its true that its unlikely one would end up at the 53kWh used point very often. I have seen it only a couple of times in long distance driving, and then when I was on the way home, so I pushed it a bit more. I find these worries and tests about battery capacity to be unnecessary and a bit paranoid given the long range of the Bolt EV that is highlighted by cyaopec here. Also, I worry that draining a battery to zero is doing more harm than good.
 

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"As a practical matter", one seldom does much more than 100 miles between charging, except for the first 200 miles out the door in a morning, so its true that its unlikely one would end up at the 53kWh used point very often. I have seen it only a couple of times in long distance driving, and then when I was on the way home, so I pushed it a bit more. I find these worries and tests about battery capacity to be unnecessary and a bit paranoid given the long range of the Bolt EV that is highlighted by cyaopec here. Also, I worry that draining a battery to zero is doing more harm than good.
You're in Connecticut. The Southwest is entirely different. Electrify America has stations 40 miles south of Lone Pine. Assuming you kill 90 minutes to get a 100% charge, you'd get to Lone Pine (assuming 200 miles of highway range) with 160. Subtract 40 miles back to the EA stations and you're only working with 120 for a long weekend, which in the Sierra Nevada range you can go through pretty quickly.
 

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You're in Connecticut. The Southwest is entirely different. Electrify America has stations 40 miles south of Lone Pine. Assuming you kill 90 minutes to get a 100% charge, you'd get to Lone Pine (assuming 200 miles of highway range) with 160. Subtract 40 miles back to the EA stations and you're only working with 120 for a long weekend, which in the Sierra Nevada range you can go through pretty quickly.
Yes, there are not enough chargers around whether you are in the Southwest, or Connecticut. The problem is no different. I would never waste 90 minutes charging to 100% at a dc fast charger as it only gains you <20% more miles for double the time. That is a well-known known of long-distance driving in an EV. The best solution is to stop-overnight at a 240 volt L2 at a campground, RV park, hotel, etc. to avoid big hops that are impossible or difficult one way or another. Also, there are just some journeys that are not possible until more chargers are installed throughout the country. Its not just the Southwest has particular problems.
 

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Yes, there are not enough chargers around whether you are in the Southwest, or Connecticut. The problem is no different. I would never waste 90 minutes charging to 100% at a dc fast charger as it only gains you <20% more miles for double the time. That is a well-known known of long-distance driving in an EV. The best solution is to stop-overnight at a 240 volt L2 at a campground, RV park, hotel, etc. to avoid big hops that are impossible or difficult one way or another. Also, there are just some journeys that are not possible until more chargers are installed throughout the country. Its not just the Southwest has particular problems.
You're correct. But I probably didn't explain my position well. In the Southwest roundtrips of about 200 miles just for a day are normal. Perhaps less so in the Northeast. So knowing how many kWh you can pull from your battery can be more useful than relying on the GOM.
 

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You're correct. But I probably didn't explain my position well. In the Southwest roundtrips of about 200 miles just for a day are normal. Perhaps less so in the Northeast. So knowing how many kWh you can pull from your battery can be more useful than relying on the GOM.
We need more chargers, and that's all there is to it. We also need bigger batteries that give a longer range. It does not matter where you live. In Connecticut, in winter, the range of the Bolt drops to 150 miles, and long distance driving is not really practical.
 

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....As a practical matter, just doing the speed limit puts you easily past 238 miles...."
Hi - what is the speed limit where you are? 65 miles per hour?
 

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We need more chargers, and that's all there is to it. We also need bigger batteries that give a longer range. It does not matter where you live. In Connecticut, in winter, the range of the Bolt drops to 150 miles, and long distance driving is not really practical.
While I think you guys have found quite a bit of common ground in your views, I want to point out that in some areas of the US, 200 miles is not "long distance" driving. It is a daily commute plus a few errands. I won't say it's "Southwest" versus "Northeast" but for some people (how many is hard to say) that is the reality of it. Heck, around here I know people who have a regular commute of 120-150 miles, and for years the only other BEV I used to see (when I was driving a Leaf) was a Tesla that drove here on such a commute that would plug in at a local business to charge. The owner told me he was saving a ton of money on gas.

If I recall, the point made earlier in the thread that led to some of this discussion was to question if it's a big deal if you lose some of the kWh and range from a car that is around 60 kWh and 200+ EPA miles. For some of us, 60 kWh and ~200+ EPA miles is the bare minimum we can contemplate before we can consider working without a net and going without a backup gasoline vehicle. I think the answer is that while for many purposes it's not that big a deal, it is still worth understanding that for some people in some contexts, it is a significant issue, and this means that it is also an issue that will show up (to an extent) in used vehicle market value.

Yes, more plentiful local DCFC would clearly ease the matter of minimum range for different drivers, and it might be argued that it does away with the issue in some cases. We're still somewhat far away from such plentiful DCFC in many areas though. To illustrate: from where I'm sitting, there is a limited amount of DCFC to the North about 60 miles. To the east, west or south, I think there is none for dozens if not hundreds of miles. To the east or west, I would need to considerably re-route my trip, though it can be done, and to be fair even in a gasoline car, that's kind of how the roads go. Anyway, the point is I know if I get in my gasoline car, there will be zero issue of finding a place to fuel up in a time-efficient way. Aside from spending the night somewhere (and planning my trip around that destination) we are some years away from being able to say the same for a BEV. The first few DCFC won't fully fix that.
 
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Hi - what is the speed limit where you are? 65 miles per hour?
Yes, only in areas of the high desert does the California speed limit go to 70. It's mainly 65. But I also mean if a wide boulevard is marked for 45 and everyone does 55, just do the speed limit. It really adds up.


I once asked the CHP why most speed limits are 65. It's because the assumption is that you will be able to "stomp" on the brakes before impact and impact at 45-50 MPH, which is much more survivable than dropping from 85 and impacting at 65, which is much less survivable. So as a practical matter I like going 65 (if that's the limit) and hanging in the right lane for no other reason than safety.
 

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While I think you guys have found quite a bit of common ground in your views, I want to point out that in some areas of the US, 200 miles is not "long distance" driving. It is a daily commute plus a few errands. I won't say it's "Southwest" versus "Northeast" but for some people (how many is hard to say) that is the reality of it. Heck, around here I know people who have a regular commute of 120-150 miles, and for years the only other BEV I used to see (when I was driving a Leaf) was a Tesla that drove here on such a commute that would plug in at a local business to charge. The owner told me he was saving a ton of money on gas.

If I recall, the point made earlier in the thread that led to some of this discussion was to question if it's a big deal if you lose some of the kWh and range from a car that is around 60 kWh and 200+ EPA miles. For some of us, 60 kWh and ~200+ EPA miles is the bare minimum we can contemplate before we can consider working without a net and going without a backup gasoline vehicle. I think the answer is that while for many purposes it's not that big a deal, it is still worth understanding that for some people in some contexts, it is a significant issue, and this means that it is also an issue that will show up (to an extent) in used vehicle market value.

Yes, more plentiful local DCFC would clearly ease the matter of minimum range for different drivers, and it might be argued that it does away with the issue in some cases. We're still somewhat far away from such plentiful DCFC in many areas though. To illustrate: from where I'm sitting, there is a limited amount of DCFC to the North about 60 miles. To the east, west or south, I think there is none for dozens if not hundreds of miles. To the east or west, I would need to considerably re-route my trip, though it can be done, and to be fair even in a gasoline car, that's kind of how the roads go. Anyway, the point is I know if I get in my gasoline car, there will be zero issue of finding a place to fuel up in a time-efficient way. Aside from spending the night somewhere (and planning my trip around that destination) we are some years away from being able to say the same for a BEV. The first few DCFC won't fully fix that.
Good post. The Bolt has the bare minimum of range I need. I knew it when I bought it. So I'm not complaining. I like to keep track of the degradation so I know how the vehicle is responding to real world use and so I can properly educate potential buyers. A lot of people at work think 90-100k is a HUGE number of miles on a car. For those people, 10% degradation at 100k miles is really no big deal. But for super commuters and people who "stretch" the ranger of the vehicle and keep their vehicles to 200k plus miles it's somewhat of an issue. If the next round of BEVs start off with 265+ miles range then it may be less of an issue, as even with degradation you still may end up with a vehicle that can do 200 miles even with high miles on the odometer.
 

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Good post. The Bolt has the bare minimum of range I need. I knew it when I bought it. So I'm not complaining. I like to keep track of the degradation so I know how the vehicle is responding to real world use and so I can properly educate potential buyers. A lot of people at work think 90-100k is a HUGE number of miles on a car. For those people, 10% degradation at 100k miles is really no big deal. But for super commuters and people who "stretch" the ranger of the vehicle and keep their vehicles to 200k plus miles it's somewhat of an issue. If the next round of BEVs start off with 265+ miles range then it may be less of an issue, as even with degradation you still may end up with a vehicle that can do 200 miles even with high miles on the odometer.
One additional point that would impact my own next used BEV purchase is if the BEV manufacturer is up-front and possibly innovative in their offering of replacement batteries. If I know that I can get past the warranty miles, and at about 150k-200k miles that I want to replace the pack, and that the manufacturer has said that I will be able to do this at that time with a new (NOT refurbished) pack of equal or greater kWh, and do this for $100-$150/kWh, or maybe even less, then I could take this into consideration as I buy the car. Or, if they offer a battery lease (as we used to hear more about), maybe I could consider that..... it's hard to say. When I went to research buying a used Volt, it was not at all easy to get straight answers on what the battery replacement cost would be assuming that, at some point, I might need to replace it out of warranty, out of my own pocket. At this point it is moot (I will likely trade it in for a BEV) but it reinforced in my mind that some straight and helpful and transparent answers on traction battery replacement could help me decide when going to get a vehicle.
 

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One additional point that would impact my own next used BEV purchase is if the BEV manufacturer is up-front and possibly innovative in their offering of replacement batteries. If I know that I can get past the warranty miles, and at about 150k-200k miles that I want to replace the pack, and that the manufacturer has said that I will be able to do this at that time with a new (NOT refurbished) pack of equal or greater kWh, and do this for $100-$150/kWh, or maybe even less, then I could take this into consideration as I buy the car. Or, if they offer a battery lease (as we used to hear more about), maybe I could consider that..... it's hard to say. When I went to research buying a used Volt, it was not at all easy to get straight answers on what the battery replacement cost would be assuming that, at some point, I might need to replace it out of warranty, out of my own pocket. At this point it is moot (I will likely trade it in for a BEV) but it reinforced in my mind that some straight and helpful and transparent answers on traction battery replacement could help me decide when going to get a vehicle.
Well You can Google for Bolt Batteries. Slow at work so I just google What it is for the New part at this date. The lowest I have ever seen is 12 K$ USD. as of 7/2019 the price shows up as $12.4 K plus only $200 shipping (shipping of only $200 seems very cheap for such a heavy part).
https://www.google.com/shopping/pro...&ved=0ahUKEwiAioLswKXjAhVDAp0JHZPFDXYQ8wII5wI

I am hopeful that 6-8 years from now if I need a new pack I could pick one up with more KWH for a lower price. A lot can happen with battery tech and pricing in almost 10 years.
 

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FWIW, this was actually a (minor) consideration in choosing the Bolt over the Model 3. Considering how well the Volt batteries hold up and that the packs/cooling in the Bolt batteries are similar, I figured Chevy actually has a little more experience in making long lasting batteries. And having owned a Volt for 2 years and seeing ZERO capacity degradation, I felt safe buying a Bolt.

Mike
 

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FWIW, this was actually a (minor) consideration in choosing the Bolt over the Model 3. Considering how well the Volt batteries hold up and that the packs/cooling in the Bolt batteries are similar, I figured Chevy actually has a little more experience in making long lasting batteries. And having owned a Volt for 2 years and seeing ZERO capacity degradation, I felt safe buying a Bolt.

Mike
fwiw, GM put some work into protecting their packs and this for me was a buying consideration, especially since I went through significant degradation on a leased Leaf in a hot climate.

However, as a counterpoint, while I bought a used 2013 Volt in late 2017 with GM's admirable efforts in mind, I also knew they would not be a cure-all, and they haven't been. I have seen a degradation in useable kWh of what looks like about 10% (a bit hard for me to tell exactly, but roughly high 10s to about 9.6 kWh). This has included a recent manufacturer procedure which seems to have impacted the usable kWh.

As I think about it, if your buying considerations were Bolt vs Model 3, this would have been a more modern consideration. In any event, I don't mean to make it sound like I didn't take your point (basically we had somewhat similar thinking) but I did want to be clear about my recent Volt experience, as it has been a bit un-nerving.
 
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