Chevy Bolt EV Forum banner

1 - 20 of 29 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,865 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
So I decided to do a little bit of a comparison of my Bolt EV versus a Model S (that was pretending to be a Bolt EV). I might be preaching to the choir here... most of you already know the Bolt EV is fully capable of long distance trips in reasonable amounts of time.

https://youtu.be/JUPUv3mbXfo

For those of you who don't have the time or inclination to watch, a trip that took the Model S owner 9 hours and 15 minutes while pretending to be a Bolt EV took me right around 6 hours.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
770 Posts
So I decided to do a little bit of a comparison of my Bolt EV versus a Model S...
Excellent video. It was like I was on the trip with you. (and we should call you 'Ol Iron-Seat, as you have unblinking Courage under Fire when it comes to range anxiety)

Transport Evolved's video >>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jA6p5dZprng<< Should Rival Automakers Be Scared Of The Hyundai Kona Electric?,ran after yours for me. Somewhat along the same logic-lines as yours; comparing one BEV with another/others.

It strikes me that the comparisons of the various 200+ mile range BEV's literally boil down to Differences without a Distinction. I understand why a person with a $90K BEV is compelled to demonstrate that his BEV has some added value like shorter trip time vs a BEV at half the cost, which in turn self-justifies his investment. And in Transport Evolved's treatment of the Kona was an attempt to amplify small differences between the Kona and Leaf; again speaking primarily to range.

We gotta find some better denominator beyond BEV range, as the difference between a BEV with 238 Miles of range, 259 miles of range, and 301 miles of range is meaningless 99.99% of the time for any owner.

Give me your best estimate of how long it would take a TM3/LR and a Bolt to drive the same 600 mile trip. I will tell you right now, I think that the only people that care what the answer is are existing BEV owners. Not prospective BEV owners.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
786 Posts
If all these BEV did the same trip, following all legal speed laws, the answer to how long it will take is the same for all. That is a misuse of time to compare them. Range is important, but if your trips are short, and less than 100 miles, every BEV on the market will do the it and take the same amount of time. If I had my way to compare, my values are: 1. A U.S. brand, and 2. Cost. Only the Bolt EV wins here.

A better value would be to measure which BEV takes the least amount of energy to cover 100 miles under identical driving conditions, such as speed, ambient temperature, A/C settings, and driver weight. The Bolt EV is more energy efficient than the Model S, but slightly better than the Model 3, so it will win this comparison, too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,161 Posts
We gotta find some better denominator beyond BEV range, as the difference between a BEV with 238 Miles of range, 259 miles of range, and 301 miles of range is meaningless 99.99% of the time for any owner.
Agree, but a first-time BEV buyer has to begin comparisons somewhere. I will admit to choosing the Bolt over the i3 based mainly on range. After using the Bolt for a year now, we find we would have been OK with the i3's more limited range.

most of you already know the Bolt EV is fully capable of long distance trips in reasonable amounts of time.
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. The distances here in the intermountain west are loooooong and charging stations are few. We make a 725-mile ICE run in eleven hours. How long would that take in the Bolt? As mentioned, it's only of academic interest, as we'll never know from experience.

BTW - once range was a non-issue, the single best feature of the Bolt over most other BEVs is true one-pedal operation; once experienced, conventional two-pedal cars seem so last century.

jack vines
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,865 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Give me your best estimate of how long it would take a TM3/LR and a Bolt to drive the same 600 mile trip. I will tell you right now, I think that the only people that care what the answer is are existing BEV owners. Not prospective BEV owners.
In a Tesla Model 3, I could do my regular 500-mile trip in about 45 minutes to an hour less time than it would take me in my Bolt EV with the current public charging infrastructure. When Electrify America implementations are put in place, that difference drops to about 30 to 45 minutes. And, as a side note, its only about 20-30 minutes faster than what a Kona EV could do (with the Electrify America sites). A 600 mile trip would only increase the difference to a sold hour difference between the Model 3 and the Bolt EV.

I think the biggest distinctions now in the 200+ mile range BEVs are space, performance, and appointments. Essentially, they considerations you would make for any other car purchase. The BEV capability is assumed. Now you can shop specifically for what you need or want in terms of features.

You hit on a good point that I plan to address soon. All three of the EVs named above are what I consider 2nd Generation modern EVs. They've gotten past the short ranges, and they are mostly past the unpalatable driving to charging time ratio ( I think 3:1 is the bottom end of acceptability for most Americans in terms of driving to charging time). Some Tesla proponents might say, "But the Model 3 is like next gen, dude." But it isn't. It still doesn't address the fundamental hangup a lot of people have: "What if I need to top up really quickly? Not saying I will, but what if a NEED to?" A Model 3 still can't do that. The Porsche Taycan will. Which is why I think it's going to be the first 3rd Generation modern EV. When that capability trickles down to affordable EVs, ICE vehicles are toast.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,141 Posts
If all these BEV did the same trip, following all legal speed laws, the answer to how long it will take is the same for all. That is a misuse of time to compare them. Range is important, but if your trips are short, and less than 100 miles, every BEV on the market will do the it and take the same amount of time. If I had my way to compare, my values are: 1. A U.S. brand, and 2. Cost. Only the Bolt EV wins here.

A better value would be to measure which BEV takes the least amount of energy to cover 100 miles under identical driving conditions, such as speed, ambient temperature, A/C settings, and driver weight. The Bolt EV is more energy efficient than the Model S, but slightly better than the Model 3, so it will win this comparison, too.
You should caveat your opinions as just that rather than fact if you don't link your source.
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/08/19/tesla-model-3-is-the-most-efficient-electric-car-on-highways/
"The nearest competitor to Tesla on practical range and charging is the Hyundai Kona 64 kWh"
"However, the Kona is still a great value EV for those who manage to get a hold of one, by far the best of the non-Tesla EVs currently available in terms of practical range and efficiency"
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,161 Posts
( I think 3:1 is the bottom end of acceptability for most Americans in terms of driving to charging time).
Maybe for you, but certainly not for me. Someday, BEV hardware and infrastructure may supplant ICE for long road trips, but I'm still waiting for my gyrocopter Popular Science promised as the commuter vehicle of this century.

Beginning the discussion with, "Any road trip is going to take a minimum of 33% longer in a BEV." would be a deal-killer. Rather than get into the details of road tripping, which is still a negative for selling BEVs to newbies, I focus on the day-to-day-use positives; there are enough of those. Once they drive a Bolt on a route familiar to them, it's so superior to their ICE, most begin to get it.

When that capability trickles down to affordable EVs, ICE vehicles are toast.
The reality is most US vehicles seldom-to-never make long road trips or haul large groups or loads. If US drivers bought according to actual use and need, ICEs are already toast. Instead, there's one person commuting and errand running in a 6000# Expedition/Suburban. He justifies it because, "Well, there are four of us and two dogs and we road trip once or twice a year."

jack vines
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
643 Posts
He justifies it because, "Well, there are four of us and two dogs and we road trip once or twice a year."

jack vines
perhaps if you could get the car you need for when you need our usage could change. The problem is cars are expensive and not easy to swap (personalization - license - registration - insurance - mechanical condition) - so you have to buy for all requirements rather than extreme majority requirements - single person commuter 48 weeks/year - full family wagon 2 weeks a year - general purpose 2+ people hauler 2-3 times a month....

I'm not proposing a solution - but if you can have only one car - you kinda need to be able to handle any thing - that also a reason people buy pickups - I might need to haul something...

and renting is a PITA and results in a sub-standard experience - the rentals are rarely in good condition or pleasant to use.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,020 Posts
I'm not proposing a solution - but if you can have only one car - you kinda need to be able to handle any thing - that also a reason people buy pickups - I might need to haul something...

I asked my neighbor if he could help me pick something up in town, he said he didn't want to scratch up his truck. The people I see driving pickups have at most put in groceries and items that can fit in a Bolt. The pickup in my area is cool and that is why 90% of people own them.


I got nervous watching you at 3% battery on that trip. I have only done that twice and made me super nervous. Most people on this forum would have freaked out, but you really know the limitations of the Bolt.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,161 Posts
and renting is a PITA and results in a sub-standard experience - the rentals are rarely in good condition or pleasant to use.
Again, we'll have to agree to disagree and my opinion is based upon thirty years of at least two rentals per month. I did business travel nationwide and internationally, with cases of gear, usually renting an SUV, but occasionally a van or a pickup. The rental process was so frictionless, I'd often find myself driving away not conscious of having done anything. The vehicles are new, clean and low mileage and a bargain.

I asked my neighbor if he could help me pick something up in town, he said he didn't want to scratch up his truck. The people I see driving pickups have at most put in groceries and items that can fit in a Bolt. The pickup in my area is cool and that is why 90% of people own them.
Agree. Most truck/large SUV owners can never admit how much resources they're wasting owning that huge honker, but operating it at 1/8th of capacity every day.

jack vines
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
939 Posts
Agree, but a first-time BEV buyer has to begin comparisons somewhere. I will admit to choosing the Bolt over the i3 based mainly on range. After using the Bolt for a year now, we find we would have been OK with the i3's more limited range.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. The distances here in the intermountain west are loooooong and charging stations are few. We make a 725-mile ICE run in eleven hours. How long would that take in the Bolt? As mentioned, it's only of academic interest, as we'll never know from experience.

BTW - once range was a non-issue, the single best feature of the Bolt over most other BEVs is true one-pedal operation; once experienced, conventional two-pedal cars seem so last century.

jack vines
Why would you pay more for an i3 with less range than the Bolt ?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
786 Posts
You should caveat your opinions as just that rather than fact if you don't link your source.
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/08/19/tesla-model-3-is-the-most-efficient-electric-car-on-highways/
"The nearest competitor to Tesla on practical range and charging is the Hyundai Kona 64 kWh"
"However, the Kona is still a great value EV for those who manage to get a hold of one, by far the best of the non-Tesla EVs currently available in terms of practical range and efficiency"
The Hyundai Kona is still new and not for sale at every dealer as with the Chevy Bolt EV, available EVERYWHERE, even here in Puerto Rico. So my post stands as correct. You cannot compare vehicles until they are actually on the roads.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
786 Posts
Maybe for you, but certainly not for me. Someday, BEV hardware and infrastructure may supplant ICE for long road trips, but I'm still waiting for my gyrocopter Popular Science promised as the commuter vehicle of this century.
Just do as Elon Musk did: Build your own. You can get millions in funding as easily as he did.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
786 Posts
perhaps if you could get the car you need for when you need our usage could change. The problem is cars are expensive and not easy to swap (personalization - license - registration - insurance - mechanical condition) - so you have to buy for all requirements rather than extreme majority requirements - single person commuter 48 weeks/year - full family wagon 2 weeks a year - general purpose 2+ people hauler 2-3 times a month....

I'm not proposing a solution - but if you can have only one car - you kinda need to be able to handle any thing - that also a reason people buy pickups - I might need to haul something...

and renting is a PITA and results in a sub-standard experience - the rentals are rarely in good condition or pleasant to use.
My Chevy Equinox is a middle type of vehicle solution: it can carry five plus cargo easily, and most of the time it only carries two. Sometimes I set it to carry cargo, so it is better than a small pickup, since it can carry more passengers, and the cargo is protected (up to ten feet in length fits inside!). I wish it was a hybrid or EV!;)

But in true practical means, I don't carry it with me when I travel, so I rent up to a week at a time. For those who use an EV for daily travels, just rent a hybrid for long distance driving or a truck for cargo. Why buy what you only need occasionally? Same with trucks and longer range EV, only buy what you use every day and rent when you need extra.

BTW, I don't know why you consider rental a PITA. I use Enterprise since the late 1990's and love their quick service. I reserve online in a few minutes, then I arrive at the airport and pick up the vehicle in minutes. Returns are even easier! Just park and take your stuff out .All my living family members live in the U.S. mainland, so I travel every year, and this year I made three trips due to my father's illness and death, then the need to manage his belongings, so I do need a rental every time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,865 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
Maybe for you, but certainly not for me. Someday, BEV hardware and infrastructure may supplant ICE for long road trips, but I'm still waiting for my gyrocopter Popular Science promised as the commuter vehicle of this century.

Beginning the discussion with, "Any road trip is going to take a minimum of 33% longer in a BEV." would be a deal-killer. Rather than get into the details of road tripping, which is still a negative for selling BEVs to newbies, I focus on the day-to-day-use positives; there are enough of those. Once they drive a Bolt on a route familiar to them, it's so superior to their ICE, most begin to get it.

jack vines
I'm not sure whether you understood what I was saying. A 3:1 driving to charging ratio means that for whatever time you spend driving, you spend a third of that much time charging. That doesn't equate to 33% longer than an ICE car. ICE cars do have a better ratio (typically at least 10:1), but when you start with a full tank, the actual difference is in time is far less than 33%.

And my point was palatability for most Americans. Most people do not do cannonball run style driving. It's easy to say, "Well, if I drove and only stopped for gas, it would take X." But the truth is very different. People stop for gas, sure, but because it takes so little time, they are free to stop a restaurants, shops, parks, vistas, etc. along the way.

Truly, even with a 3:1 driving:charging ratio, the issue isn't trip times. It's not having access to charging at the locations you would typically stop for the amount of time you would typically be stopped. My 500-mile trip times in my Bolt EV are only about 30 minutes longer than my Volt takes long the same route. All it takes is dinner and a 15-minute gas stop to cancel out my first dinner/charging stop. After that, it's faster, sure, but only by 30 minutes. And when Electrify America's sites go online, the difference would only be about 15 to 20 minutes.

Now sure, if you said you'd drive that 8 hours (500 miles) without stopping, then yes, ICE cars are better for your purposes right now. even if you only stop once for fuel, 8 hours and 15 minutes, it's better. But at any time, if you decide to stop to pick something up from a store, 8 hours and 45 minutes. Then, if you decide you need to use the bathroom, 9 hours flat. Then, if you decide you want to grab something to eat, 9 hours and 30 minutes. We've basically just rewritten the story of the tortoise and the hare using EVs versus ICE vehicles.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,161 Posts
Why would you pay more for an i3 with less range than the Bolt ?
Our son is leasing an i3 and loves it. We've driven theirs many miles and love it; better seats, better interior, for two examples.

When we were shopping for a BEV, he put me onto several lease-return i3s with very low miles at less than $20k net. We could have bought two lightly used i3s for what we paid for our new Cajun Red Bolt Premier. Other than range, the main reason we didn't buy two used i3s is insurance is still way high on the i3 because of the company fearing the cost of carbon fiber repairs.

jack vines
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,141 Posts
The Hyundai Kona is still new and not for sale at every dealer as with the Chevy Bolt EV, available EVERYWHERE, even here in Puerto Rico. So my post stands as correct. You cannot compare vehicles until they are actually on the roads.
"A better value would be to measure which BEV takes the least amount of energy to cover 100 miles under identical driving conditions, such as speed, ambient temperature, A/C settings, and driver weight. The Bolt EV is more energy efficient than the Model S, but slightly better than the Model 3, so it will win this comparison, too. "
Nowhere in your post do you mention that it must be available in PR. You're moving the goal posts now.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,196 Posts
Just do as Elon Musk did: Build your own. You can get millions in funding as easily as he did.
He put $70,000,000 of his own money into Tesla. Maybe easy for you; not for most people.

Now sure, if you said you'd drive that 8 hours (500 miles) without stopping, then yes, ICE cars are better for your purposes right now. even if you only stop once for fuel, 8 hours and 15 minutes, it's better. But at any time, if you decide to stop to pick something up from a store, 8 hours and 45 minutes. Then, if you decide you need to use the bathroom, 9 hours flat. Then, if you decide you want to grab something to eat, 9 hours and 30 minutes. We've basically just rewritten the story of the tortoise and the hare using EVs versus ICE vehicles.
You keep bringing up charge time as if it's a non-issue, or should be a non-issue for everyone. Why do you insist on telling people they are wrong to not want to put up with the inconvenience of charging? Even if they didn't want to spare 30 seconds, their concern would be valid.

Then you misrepresent the difference in "refueling" times. Maybe Tesla's can achieve 2/3 driving to 1/3 charging ratio, but nothing else does, unless you're driving to nearly 0% SoC and then DCFC at 125 A for 30 minutes.

Who is taking 15 minutes to fill their car? I run my cars almost to empty and refuel and use the bathroom in 5 minutes. Restroom stops take 2-3 minutes, including washing my hands. Eating out is for people that like to spend money on food. I drive through Taco Bell, McDonalds, or if I want to go slow, grab a sandwich at Subway for the road. 10 minutes tops.

I'd be wrong to say that everyone should be comfortable traveling as I do, just as someone telling me to eat at a sit down restaurant when I travel is wrong.
 
1 - 20 of 29 Posts
Top