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Now sure, if you said you'd drive that 8 hours (500 miles) without stopping, then yes, ICE cars are better for your purposes right now. even if you only stop once for fuel, 8 hours and 15 minutes, it's better. But at any time, if you decide to stop to pick something up from a store, 8 hours and 45 minutes. Then, if you decide you need to use the bathroom, 9 hours flat. Then, if you decide you want to grab something to eat, 9 hours and 30 minutes. We've basically just rewritten the story of the tortoise and the hare using EVs versus ICE vehicles.
I see charging on road trips as a huge obstacle to EV adoption. I am retired, and not in a hurry, so I am fine with it. But with our current charging infrastructure, we are renting a car to go to Rochester, next month. Driving the Bolt would have required a night in a motel, each way, and a side trip to visit old friends would have been out of the question.

I think we should ban cars and all ride bicycles...for many reasons. But it is not going to happen, any more than EVs are going to take over from ICE cars. "Give me convenience, or give me death!", is our national motto.
 

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Discussion Starter #22
You keep bringing up charge time as if it's a non-issue, or should be a non-issue for everyone. Why do you insist on telling people they are wrong to not want to put up with the inconvenience of charging? Even if they didn't want to spare 30 seconds, their concern would be valid.

Then you misrepresent the difference in "refueling" times. Maybe Tesla's can achieve 2/3 driving to 1/3 charging ratio, but nothing else does, unless you're driving to nearly 0% SoC and then DCFC at 125 A for 30 minutes.

Who is taking 15 minutes to fill their car? I run my cars almost to empty and refuel and use the bathroom in 5 minutes. Restroom stops take 2-3 minutes, including washing my hands. Eating out is for people that like to spend money on food. I drive through Taco Bell, McDonalds, or if I want to go slow, grab a sandwich at Subway for the road. 10 minutes tops.

I'd be wrong to say that everyone should be comfortable traveling as I do, just as someone telling me to eat at a sit down restaurant when I travel is wrong.
What you're saying is exactly my point. It's always the "road warriors" who are most vocal about "how I drive," but when someone counters with, "but that's not how everyone drives," the road warriors cry foul. And I have to call BS on the 5-minute gas and bathroom stop. That requires some serious rounding down. My friend (who follows my channel but doesn't own an EV) showed me the results of his experiment with his Honda Accord. From the time he activated the pump to the time he finished pumping gas, a little over 13 gallons required 3 and a half minutes of pumping. And that's inline with an advertising firm's assessment that the average customer spends 3 to 5 minutes just standing in front of the pump: https://allovermedia.com/products/gas-pump-advertising/ Want to use the bathroom? Extra time. Want to grab a drink? Extra time. Want to pay with cash to get the cheaper price? Extra time. Saying a gas stop is only 10 minutes is being generous.

Also, you might not eat at sit down restaurants on long road trips, but I do. And I guarantee that I'm not alone. If I were, none of those restaurants would still be in business. The sheer number of those businesses that are open along freeway routes should tell you just how many people travel that way.

And I've timed drive-thrus. I stopped for a 30-minute top up in Bakersfield before heading over the mountains. I took note of the cars at the end of the drive thru. By the time I had finished eating (in the restaurant) and was walking back to my car, the cars at the end of the drive thru were just getting their food. But hey, they get to refuel in under 10 minutes.

In the end, my only point is this: The issue for *most* Americans isn't the time spent fast charging on road trips. The issue is that the chargers aren't located at the places where they want to stop and spend time in the first place. Sure, that means we need chargers and cars capable of taking advantage of 10-15 minute charging rates (300+ kW) as well as paying us back for spending 30 minutes to an hour at the location (3 to 4 more hours of driving... i.e., >60 kWh battery capacities).

For the few, the proud, the road warriors: EVs won't be primary vehicles until they have 500-600 miles of range with 400-500 kW charging rates (with chargers located at every developed freeway off ramp). But, by that point, gas will easily be over $10 a gallon due to its being a specialty fuel, so there will be other, more compelling reasons to transition to EVs.
 

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I have to call BS on the 5-minute gas and bathroom stop. That requires some serious rounding down. My friend (who follows my channel but doesn't own an EV) showed me the results of his experiment with his Honda Accord. From the time he activated the pump to the time he finished pumping gas, a little over 13 gallons required 3 and a half minutes of pumping. And that's inline with an advertising firm's assessment that the average customer spends 3 to 5 minutes just standing in front of the pump: https://allovermedia.com/products/gas-pump-advertising/ Want to use the bathroom? Extra time. Want to grab a drink? Extra time. Want to pay with cash to get the cheaper price? Extra time. Saying a gas stop is only 10 minutes is being generous.
You've acknowledged my point that stopping for fuel can take only 5 minutes. When I'm on a road trip, I pay at the pump with my card since the cash back almost offsets the extra charge (often there is no extra charge for credit). Once the fuel is flowing, I use the restroom and get back before the pump clicks off. I don't buy stuff at convenience store because it's overpriced. I'll buy snacks at the grocery store before the trip when I do my regular shopping.

Here's a thread on the subject where people cite between 4-10 minutes to refuel. One guy takes 20 minutes, but that's because he spends 10 minutes topping off.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/community/index.php?threads/25112/

Only when I make an ill-timed stop at Costco do I spend 10+ minutes to refuel. Each car spends roughly 5 minutes refueling.

We don't need to exaggerate the speed of charging or the slowness of refueling, to promote EVs. It's already a huge advantage being able to "refuel" from home and avoid the petrol station altogether. Electricity being 1/3 (give or take) the cost per mile as gasoline is also appealing.

Also, you might not eat at sit down restaurants on long road trips, but I do. And I guarantee that I'm not alone. If I were, none of those restaurants would still be in business. The sheer number of those businesses that are open along freeway routes should tell you just how many people travel that way.
...and the sheer number of fast food restaurants and the fact that they can deliver many meals in the time it takes a sit-down restaurant to deliver 1 is evidence of which is more popular with travelers.

This is not to say your method of travel is any better or worse than anyone else, only evidence that most people don't travel so leisurely.

And I've timed drive-thrus. I stopped for a 30-minute top up in Bakersfield before heading over the mountains. I took note of the cars at the end of the drive thru. By the time I had finished eating (in the restaurant) and was walking back to my car, the cars at the end of the drive thru were just getting their food. But hey, they get to refuel in under 10 minutes.
What fast food joint takes 30 minutes to drive-thru? Just because you've found the worlds slowest fast food doesn't mean everyone is having a similar experience. My typical stop is about 5 minutes. Often I'll just go inside so I can refill my water and use the restroom while my order is prepared.

In the end, my only point is this: The issue for *most* Americans isn't the time spent fast charging on road trips. The issue is that the chargers aren't located at the places where they want to stop and spend time in the first place.
That might be true for the current crop of EV drivers who are wealthier than average by virtue of having $40k+ vehicles, and who are more likely to spend money sitting down to eat, or shopping. People with lower paying jobs, who might only get 2 weeks of vacation per year, don't have the time or money to spend on such extravagance. For those people, the problem isn't that the charger is placed in an uninteresting place, it's that EVs cost too much and take too long to recharge.

For the few, the proud, the road warriors: EVs won't be primary vehicles until they have 500-600 miles of range with 400-500 kW charging rates (with chargers located at every developed freeway off ramp). But, by that point, gas will easily be over $10 a gallon due to its being a specialty fuel, so there will be other, more compelling reasons to transition to EVs.
Your hyperbole does your credibility no favors.
 

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stopping for fuel can take only 5 minutes. When I'm on a road trip, I pay at the pump with my card since the cash back almost offsets the extra charge (often there is no extra charge for credit). Once the fuel is flowing, I use the restroom and get back before the pump clicks off. I don't buy stuff at convenience store because it's overpriced. I'll buy snacks at the grocery store before the trip when I do my regular shopping.
If that's your style, driving many hundreds of miles over multiple hours and barely stopping, an EV isn't going to be your ideal car for your road trips. I guess you'll miss out on EVs for now, then.

Today's EVs don't have to replace every ICE car on the road, or meet the non-stop multi-hour road-trip needs of a few. If a car like the Bolt doesn't work for you, oh well, shame you'll have to wait.

In contrast, there's me. I like driving but I see no reason to try to set an in-car endurance record in every trip. I'm happy to have an excuse to stop for a bit after a few hours. I think taking a break is probably good both mentally and physically. I'm less excited about stopping at a Wal-Mart parking lot, though—give me a place to charge where I'd actually want to spend time. But as yet none of my road trips have been long enough to even need a DC fast charger, destination charging has been fine. Seattle to Portland, Ventura to San Diego, Providence to New York are all three hour road trips you can do on a single charge and charge at your destination.

We don't need to exaggerate [...]
That might be true for the current crop of EV drivers who are wealthier than average by virtue of having $40k+ vehicles, and who are more likely to spend money sitting down to eat, or shopping. People with lower paying jobs, who might only get 2 weeks of vacation per year, don't have the time or money to spend on such extravagance. For those people, the problem isn't that the charger is placed in an uninteresting place, it's that EVs cost too much and take too long to recharge.
Oh please, the Bolt isn't a $40k+ car after incentives and rebates. If you're frugal, you don't buy new anyway, you buy second hand. In a couple of years there will be Bolts coming off lease and the second hand market for Bolts should provide some reasonably-priced choices.

If these people are so pressed for time, why are they driving hundreds of miles and losing a day at both ends to travel, arriving exhausted?

Your hyperbole does your credibility no favors.
Looks like pot and kettle to me.

Some people are fine with road trips in the current crop of EVs and don't find the trade-offs onerous. Others not so much. Both viewpoints are valid. If you only have one car, and you need to regularly travel long distances as quickly as possible, no EV for you. Today, at least. But don't think that means that there aren't a ton of people whose needs are different.
 

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I have a 2016 BMW i3 REx. The Bolt EV wasn't available here when I leased it. When my lease ends, I'm thinking about a Bolt EV. Why would I trade my creature comforts for range? Road trips. I've done a good bit of road tripping in the i3. Most of those trips have been 300-600 miles per day. I've been watching NewsCoulomb's videos since the week he began posting them. I've concluded that the Bolt EV would handle my use scenarios with ease now that Electrify America stations are opening along Interstate 10. I've driven electric for four and a half years. I have no range anxiety, no fear. Why did I get the REx rather than the BEV? In Louisiana, I like to camp and fish and there are many places where even 110v isn't available. I throw a two gallon gas can in the frunk of the i3 to get to remote areas. Admittedly, not an elegant or particularly safe solution, but it works when you live in the boonies. Knowing what I know now, I'd drive coast to coast in an EV without hesitation. I wouldn't care that it made my trip longer or inconvenienced me. I like driving electric, and it goes with the territory.
 

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perhaps if you could get the car you need for when you need our usage could change. The problem is cars are expensive and not easy to swap (personalization - license - registration - insurance - mechanical condition) - so you have to buy for all requirements rather than extreme majority requirements - single person commuter 48 weeks/year - full family wagon 2 weeks a year - general purpose 2+ people hauler 2-3 times a month....

I'm not proposing a solution - but if you can have only one car - you kinda need to be able to handle any thing - that also a reason people buy pickups - I might need to haul something...

and renting is a PITA and results in a sub-standard experience - the rentals are rarely in good condition or pleasant to use.

ETA: Sorry for the brain fart, you clearly considered rental. We just seem to have dramatically different rental experiences. :)

@daveo4Bolt: Playing devil's advocate, isn't that precisely the car rental business? Don't get me wrong, I would *love* a ~$35K, 450-mile range BEV of bolt-size or a bit larger (something with squarer corners, so I can get plywood/appliances in) that I can quick-charge in 15-20 minutes... but for 99%+ of my usage, I could do with 'less' in the form of the Bolt and the $ I save just on gas is enough to rent a truck for a week or two per year. If you only need it for the travel time, it'd still be a big savings for me... but I agree that if you're envisioning a 2-week cross-country family camping/road trip through Muir woods and scenic Old Macgillicuddy (to see the world's largest cast-iron non-orientable manifold in three-space or whatever), then yeah, the marginal utility may not be there.
 

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If that's your style, driving many hundreds of miles over multiple hours and barely stopping, an EV isn't going to be your ideal car for your road trips. I guess you'll miss out on EVs for now, then.
Of course the reality is that long distance drivers cover a wide spectrum, from those who are trying to beat the airlines to those who are setting a leisurely pace and enjoying the countryside. As the charging infrastructure develops and matures, it will become adequate for a broader and broader swath of that spectrum.

People can argue about why things do or don't work for them as much as they want, but they really can't speak for others.
 

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Discussion Starter #28
I have a 2016 BMW i3 REx. The Bolt EV wasn't available here when I leased it. When my lease ends, I'm thinking about a Bolt EV. Why would I trade my creature comforts for range? Road trips. I've done a good bit of road tripping in the i3. Most of those trips have been 300-600 miles per day. I've been watching NewsCoulomb's videos since the week he began posting them. I've concluded that the Bolt EV would handle my use scenarios with ease now that Electrify America stations are opening along Interstate 10. I've driven electric for four and a half years. I have no range anxiety, no fear. Why did I get the REx rather than the BEV? In Louisiana, I like to camp and fish and there are many places where even 110v isn't available. I throw a two gallon gas can in the frunk of the i3 to get to remote areas. Admittedly, not an elegant or particularly safe solution, but it works when you live in the boonies. Knowing what I know now, I'd drive coast to coast in an EV without hesitation. I wouldn't care that it made my trip longer or inconvenienced me. I like driving electric, and it goes with the territory.
Thanks for following! The main reason I do my videos is to demonstrate what people can do and the concessions they need to make.
 

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Discussion Starter #29
Of course the reality is that long distance drivers cover a wide spectrum, from those who are trying to beat the airlines to those who are setting a leisurely pace and enjoying the countryside. As the charging infrastructure develops and matures, it will become adequate for a broader and broader swath of that spectrum.

People can argue about why things do or don't work for them as much as they want, but they really can't speak for others.
Yes, when it comes to use cases, we all need to take a step back and deal in broad strokes. At this point, BEV drivers represent a tiny percentage of the total. Even if only 10% of people take leisurely trips or 20% of people make regular stops at sit-down restaurants, that still represents a 10 to 20 times more people than the current population of EV drivers. Essentially, at current supply, it would take decades to support the demand just from the population for whom EVs are acceptable.
 
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