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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
You folks are really weird. A strange crowd. A peculiar lot you are.

...and total unhelpful to my cause.

I had this plan, see; Back early last summer I did my due diligence and concluded that the Bolt was best for my needs. I am the type to drive cars until the wheels fall off, or more accurately, until the repair cost and reliability become more costly than purchasing a new(er) vehicle. Our cars are over 11 years old, both with over 200,000 miles. They still run, but I knew last year that a refresh was in order.

Back to my plan, see; I haven't purchased a new car since 1991. Why pay for depreciation? Additionally I have owned a Chevy Volt, and that car depreciated really fast in it's first year...still does. My plan was just to wait it out until after the first full year of Bolt sales, and grab one of the many pre-owned that would be flooding the market like the Volt, and basically every other 1st year car. Usually, about 35%+ depreciation. Meaning the resale sites should be swimming with 2017 Bolts. I figured a LT with a MSRP of $39K and some lite change should be easy pickin's come early 2018 for about $25K...probably less. I gave myself a deadline of Feb 28 to grab one off some dealers used car inventory.

But Noooo-ooohhh--oooo.

You guys love your Bolts so much that there are almost NO dam used Bolts anywhere in North America.

To put it into perspective, take the 2017 model year Audi A4. The A4 is comparable in terms of price (about $38K decently appointed) and not too bad on gas mileage at about 27MPG. Audi, a solid German brand sold a record 34,434 A4's in 2017.
Using autotrader.com, as of today there are 820 used 2017 A4's for sale. Thats about 0.025% of the 2017's sold. This is about average for a car with an excellent reputation.

Or the Honda Fit. Honda is a brand synonymous with quality. And the Fit has been around for 10 years. 49,454 Honda Fit's were sold in the US in 2017, and Auto trader list 187 for sale. Honda owners love their Hondas, and that is about 0.004%of the 2017's sold. Can't beat Honda for owner loyalty... or can you?

But Bolts? There were 23,297 Bolts sold in 2017. Of those, auto trader shows a whopping grand total of 35 for sale.
Thirty Five. Nation wide. That's 0.001% of the 2017's sold.

Seriously? 35 out of almost 24,000 sold for a debut BEV? Are. You. Kidding. Me???
Don't you guys realize the Bolt is a General Motors car that has Chevrolet written on it?

It gets worse. Over the past few Months, the used Bolt values are actually rising. Consider this: The Audi, and Honda didn't have any Federal/State/Local/Utility tax incentives...yet their average 1 year resale value is about 26% (1 year depreciation) of MSRP.

The Bolt seems to currently holding steady now at 23% (depreciation) of MSRP. This means that the majority of Bolt owners, who took advantage of the incentives, could actually make a tidy Profit by selling their used Bolts at current market value.

This Bolt brings a whole new meaning to the term "Investment Vehicle".

My 'plan' is going down in flames because of you Jokers. Hope this makes you all sleep well at night.
 

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To be fair, the Audi and Honda probably debuted in the fall well before the Bolt, and Bolt sales were very slow to ramp up for the first few months - so I expect that you're dealing with a lot fewer 1-year-old Bolts than those. I imagine you'll probably start to see things pick up a bit towards the summer when Bolts in a lot more states will be reaching the 1 year mark.
 

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OP: what you should be doing is advertising. At least if you live in the U.S. Something like :

"Hey - do you want to get a new Bolt EV? This year may be your last chance to buy one and get a $7500 tax credit! Don't you ant to get a car that is one model year newer? Sell me your 2017 Bolt! I'll take it off your hands for a measly 15% depreciation (15% of 40,000 = $6000) and the $7500 you got from the fed (7500 + 6000 - 13,500). I will buy your old, tired, used Bolt for $26,500. Call me!"
 

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In all seriousness - 2017 Bolts should be pretty cheap to pick up on the used market once the model with 80 kWh battery is available. Late next year? Early 2020? There will also be at least three other 240+ mile BEVs on the market and readily available at that time (new, not used): model 3, Niro, Kona, LEAF2, ... Competition. Ummmmm. I love the smell of price wars in the morning!
 

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This is funny.... because I own both a Bolt and and Honda Fit. lols. I gotta say though.... the 7500 tax credit will hurt the resale values. Why would I pay you nearly retail for your car knowing I can't get the 7500 rebate? So poof instantly, a used EV is worth $7500 less than it would have otherwise been worth. Of course if you *hate* the car and feel you made a mistake, you'll gladly sell it... so I guess 35 people have felt that way.
 

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Very funny. I've seen a few used Bolts. A guy up in NJ was selling a well used 2017 for 27K (Premier with all options, a good deal). But the tax credit is playing havoc with resale prices.

Another interesting observation. A friend and I both leased Leafs in 2015. I turned mine in a month or so early when I got a really good deal on a Bolt LT. He has extended his lease out from two years to almost four and has a few months left. His original plan was to lease a new 2018 Leaf but they are not making great deals right now. His backup plan was to pick up a used 2015 Leaf for under 10K and drive it to death. The problem is, used Leafs have jumped up in price from around 8K to over 10K, and the number of available units listed in FL has dropped way down. Before, we were price checking them frequently and there was plenty of inventory and circulation. Now, almost no inventory, high prices. So that is very disappointing (not!). If used Leafs are doing well, then other EVs will also benefit from increased demand, increased gas prices, and other factors.

I do love my Bolt so whatever happens, happens. But when I decide to sell it, it will be low mileage, garage kept, in a mild climate so I am sure I will do fine.
 

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Why would anyone want to sell their Bolt? There isn't any other car available today that's comparable. But if shotel really wants a used one, he may have to wait until the lease returns become available - sometime around 2020. But due to the tax credit, it's likely that many lessees will simply buy their Bolt when the lease is up.
 

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All used EV's have seen a significant rise in value over the past 6 months or so. Had a brief chat with one of the local dealers that specializes in used EV's (usually keeps about 30-40 LEAFs on hand plus a smattering of others like the 500e and Spark EV). Used LEAF prices are indeed up $2-3K from a year ago.

The used Bolts you are seeing are almost all coming from MI and are the demo/test fleet being sold at auction by GM. Asked about used Bolts, and he said they are going for "silly amounts". You often can get a new one cheaper than used if you allow for the Fed Tax Credit (and sometimes there are State, utility or other incentives as well).

He stated that the overall EV price increase is primarily being driven by the export market - lots and lots of used EV's are leaving the country. Didn't get a chance to ask where before a hearing about the Oregon EV rebate we were attending started.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
In all seriousness - 2017 Bolts should be pretty cheap to pick up on the used market once the model with 80 kWh battery is available. Late next year? Early 2020? There will also be at least three other 240+ mile BEVs on the market and readily available at that time (new, not used): model 3, Niro, Kona, LEAF2, ... Competition. Ummmmm. I love the smell of price wars in the morning!
This would be sage advice for an ICEv aquisition. Unfortunately, - for me - EV economic calculus doesn't work that way.

"Waiting", when going from an ICEv to an EV means burning through capital every month. $200 - $300/Month in gas, and because our cars are old, unpredictable maintenance expenses that could be even more. I didn't mind spending $1200 waiting 6 Months to save hopefully $12K, but because of the Bolt's current resale value, the longer I wait, the more I lose. Rolling the dice by waiting for all the announced vaporware is an exercise in diminishing returns when going from an ICEv to an EV.

The Leaf2 LR is a year away minimum, and will be more expensive than a Bolt. Niro/Kona will not be sold in North America. The $35K TM3 is "Santa Claus"; A fictional character everyone wants desperately to believe in. The Bolt is going to have 2 full years, probably 3 years, as the only 200+ mile EV under $40K on the market.

To add to my tale of woe, I am not a candidate for the Fed Tax Credit, and I don't live in one of the handful of States that offer other incentives (EV Swag). This is why I planned to wait for a good used Bolt deal. And here I thought I was the 'smart' one. Evidently, I'm not. When I see a new used Bolt listing and call the dealer about it, they ask was I that guy that called earlier, or that other guy who called yesterday? There are a bunch of other knuckleheads like me, and we are all playing musical chairs - with Used Bolts being the chairs.
 

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There are a bunch of other knuckleheads like me, and we are all playing musical chairs - with Used Bolts being the chairs.

And the music will stop when the tax incentive runs out. When you can no longer get the credit for buying a new one, that used one will be in demand! Be ready to jump for the nearest chair (driver's seat)!
 

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He stated that the overall EV price increase is primarily being driven by the export market - lots and lots of used EV's are leaving the country. Didn't get a chance to ask where before a hearing about the Oregon EV rebate we were attending started.
There seem to be a ton of ex-US used Leafs in lots here in Vancouver BC. The prices in the US are crazy low compared to ours, and so several companies have started to import them and do the couple of modifications required to meet Canadian regulations.
 

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FWIW, As a long-time car guy on several classic/sports/new car fora, their members do vary widely. I've been impressed by the general level of intelligence of discussion on this forum. The OP of this thread was only slightly tongue-in-cheek, but he raised another point.

Only slightly OT, but as a car guy who passed all my math classes, I've perpetually been amazed at how many one/two-year-old cars are for sale at any given time. Didn't the buyers understand first-year depreciation? Unrecoverable state sales tax and license fees? Wonder how the dealership stocks all those acres and pays all the salaries?

A cursory investigation/question as to why the friend/relative traded in a near-new vehicle on another is sure to alienate the buyer when the costs thereof come out into the open. BTDTNA.

Bottom line, the more thought and evaluation going into a new car purchase, the less likely to be traded in in a year or two.

jack vines
 

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FWIW, As a long-time car guy on several classic/sports/new car fora, their members do vary widely. I've been impressed by the general level of intelligence of discussion on this forum. The OP of this thread was only slightly tongue-in-cheek, but he raised another point.

Only slightly OT, but as a car guy who passed all my math classes, I've perpetually been amazed at how many one/two-year-old cars are for sale at any given time. Didn't the buyers understand first-year depreciation? Unrecoverable state sales tax and license fees? Wonder how the dealership stocks all those acres and pays all the salaries?

A cursory investigation/question as to why the friend/relative traded in a near-new vehicle on another is sure to alienate the buyer when the costs thereof come out into the open. BTDTNA.

Bottom line, the more thought and evaluation going into a new car purchase, the less likely to be traded in in a year or two.

jack vines
Jack your premise is based on the assumption that some have had buyers regret. No doubt that may be the case in some situations. The truth may be somewhat different. Could be someone got a 2 year lease as they were waiting to get their Model 3? Or they purchased it and got their federal tax creedit while waiting for their Model 3 to get yet another taxt credit and selling their bolt and piricing in the capitalist supply vs demand manner.
 

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Yeah. Here's another reason: people prying the bowtie off their Bolts and putting on Opel nameplates. send it across the ocean into Europe. Catch a big gain on the resale in Europe due to: big price boost there for Ampera-e after GM spun Opel off to Peugeot-Citroen.

That's what I'm going to do with mine if I can get my hands on a new one here (or slightly used - maybe one from Quebec) that is.
 

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There's usually some newer cars available when people realize they can't make the payments. But with EV's, most people that buy are ones that have enough income to qualify for the tax credit. That income, probably means more people that can make the payments. Tried googling an inverse tax calculator. H&R Block had a free estimator. Using that, if you are single with no dependents and no other deductions you need to make $60,000 to have over $7,500 tax liability to get the full tax credit.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 · (Edited)
UPDATE: Yesterday autotrader showed 35 used Bolts available. Today: 34

All used 2017 Bolts/any color/any Trim/nation-wide:
Price Range of Results: Highest: $41,985 | Lowest: $28,472 | Average: $33,463

BTW @XJ12: I have more than enough deductions already. It would be cool if the EV Fed tax credit could be spread out over upcoming tax years, but my understanding is it can not.


@photonburst: Can I wait until 2021?
Do I need to put down a $1000 deposit...Elon?
 

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I predict used EVs to appreciate in value, or at least massively slow down in depreciation once the federal credits expire for the big players. When people are no longer buying new cars, the used car market demand ramps up. People factor in the tax credit the new owner got when they purchase a used vehicle, but when there are no more credits, that factor goes out the window.
 
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