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I think it's an estimate, because GM had recently decided to do only quarterly reporting, so I assume we'll know the QII results in early July.

In general in the US, the Bolt appeals to a niche customer, so the sales figures will never be high. Europe could be a great place to sell the Bolt, but the Opel vs. PSA thing is probably not helping.
 

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This has me concerned because even with high gas prices, people are still choosing gas guzzling SUV's and Trucks. The Prius Prime is gaining momentum so I think people still want the gas tank and not be bothered with the horrific fast charging networks. In the United States it seems like the three choices that will still be around in 10 years will be the hatchback like a Prius, SUV's, and pick-ups. I still don't understand why car manufacturers need to develop these 400 HP EV's. 150 HP is fine for a small car and 300 HP is more than adequate for a SUV/Pick-up. The Sedan may not be around in 10 years.

The general public doesn't think of an EV as a real car. The misconceptions about them will be there until people are educated. My friend told me if I got into an accident with my Bolt I would die because it was a tiny car. I told her that my Bolt weighs 400 pounds more than her Honda Accord and it has a more rigid structure to protect the battery. Weight of a vehicle is one of the primary factors of surviving and the Bolt is very heavy. The other is battery degradation. I put 32,000 miles on my car and I had someone ask me if only 50% of my battery was still good. I told him I still have 95% of my original range and he couldn't believe it.

Even though my car ended up costing me about $26,000, you need to be above middle class to pay for it. The rebates come months after you buy and the 7500 tax credit most people can't fully take advantage of. The Bolt/Leaf/Kona/etc... won't become main stream until you can purchase them for $25,000, convince people that they are probably the safest small vehicles on the road, the battery is a non-issue, and charging stations are as reliable as finding a gas station. I now enjoy hunting and exploring for fast-chargers on road trips. However, many people don't want to be bothered by it.
 

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At the last two EV events I attended, the average person wanted to know if it could climb a hill. Most had no idea that there were practical electric cars already being made. Most said they wouldn't buy a hybrid because they had heard horror stories about the batteries failing. The public is ten years behind the curve, and the dealers are not helping dispel their misconceptions.
 

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The Prius Prime is gaining momentum so I think people still want the gas tank and not be bothered with the horrific fast charging networks.
I test drove a Prius Prime the other day... Salesman even suggested I take it home for the night. I charged it fully (3.5kw charger) in about 2 hours. Overall, it's much too nice for me to use as a commute to work car (I work in a paper mill killing trees). As far as performance goes, it's a great commuter, but lacks the power of the bolt. Also the battery is located up rather high in the hatchback trunk space. This takes up cargo space and makes the car like to sway alot. The Bolt beats it in handling and acceleration.

I must say the prius is a good option for those who have range anxiety though... It seems to get 61mpg steady state and running on mix of batteries and gas it was showing me 92.3mpg at 55mph... very impressive.

Still, this is a bolt forum and I'm a bolt owner... so nanny nanny boo boo, the bolt still wins in my book! I sure wish the public knew more and the dealers aren't helping. Heck they still don't understand how the EVSE work, nor do they keep them charged.
 

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ai4px said:
I sure wish the public knew more and the dealers aren't helping. Heck they still don't understand how the EVSE work, nor do they keep them charged.
This ^^^
 

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There is also a thread about the difficulty of finding a Bolt. I wonder if GM just isn't building as many. The dealer where I bought mine had three others when I picked mine up. Now there are zero (but about a zillion Cruze's).
 

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There is also a thread about the difficulty of finding a Bolt. I wonder if GM just isn't building as many. The dealer where I bought mine had three others when I picked mine up. Now there are zero (but about a zillion Cruze's).
GM starting selling them in S Korea, so some of the production has been diverted. They don't have any lease deals even close to what we saw in the latter half of 2017. Maybe saving for a big push at the end of the year and timing the Tax Credit sunset?
 

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This has me concerned because even with high gas prices, people are still choosing gas guzzling SUV's and Trucks.
I postulated in the Gasoline prices rising thread that consumers aren't concerned with gasoline expense, if, they perceive that the overall economy is flourishing. Kinda' like Jeff Bezos doesn't care about MPG as he feels he is in great financial shape right now. What's $5, $6 or $7/gallon when the future seems to be so bright and full of potential and opportunity? Consumerbots think they will just make more future income to handle the rise in gas cost.

Why buy some rolling seed-looking EV econobox that offers no social prestige and doesn't present an outward trapping of success? Consumers feel comfortable dropping $90K on a Ford 6.7L Diesel F-450 King Ranch making barely 11MPG. And diesel is more expensive than U-Regular. Remember, anyone can get a car loan nowadays, as Subprime Auto Debt Is Booming Even as Defaults Soar (does packaging subprime loans into asset-backed securities ring a bell?), overall credit is pretty easy again (not as easy for housing), thus household high interest (Credit Card) debt is even higher today than just pre-crash 2006.



This current consumer exuberance is actually an economic forecast marker. This environment, like pretty much every recession previously, reveal certain social factors and technical factors that telegraph an oncoming recession. There is no real housing bubble, but there is a mild equities bubble (25% -%35), certainly an auto debt bubble, a cancerous student loan bubble, a fairly substantial corporate debt bubble, and likely worse of all...our Chinese overlords are having a bit of money troubles themselves.

I am parroting myself, but consumers in general aren't that bright. It takes a person of superior intellect to even consider the value of an EV in light of today's technology...not EV tech from 10 years ago. Consider how the members of this forum communicate with one another. The respectful dialogue here is drawn into particularly stark relief when one contrast the lack of tone, timber, and personal decorum found in almost every other Internet Social media site or discussion board.

Give it 18 to perhaps 30 Months at the latest. Your Bolt or other EV, especially when accompanied by Solar, will be sittin' pretty as it relates to your personal financial peace of mind. EV econoboxes will be all the rage. The next recession will probably last a very long time and be exceptionally painful; but it is in this future moment when EV's cross the chasm.
 

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This has me concerned because even with high gas prices, people are still choosing gas guzzling SUV's and Trucks...
I think, as was already suggested, the numbers will be more meaningful when GM posts results for the quarter, but the 1200 units this April tracks well with the same period a year ago, which I believe usually takes a small dip this time of year. The fact that consumers aren't very bright (i.e. herd mentality) offers one of the best explanations why there is often a time-lag in consumer behavior. IMO, any longterm price hike in fuel prices would eventually carry an increased risk with potentially damaging effects on the ICE market, especially when a viable alternative product is available. If you want to see how price conscious the average consumer really is, just track sales on events like "Black Friday". Consumers react acutely because they know the "SALE" will last for only a set amount of time. But for most consumers, buying a car also comes with an understood longterm commitment to the decision taken, and being trained so to speak to expect that fuel prices do fluctuate helps decrease the impulse to react immediately. Except for events that can affect prices at the pump like regional conflicts and natural disasters, fluctuations in price can also be timed in much the same way a farmer milks his cows, taking milk when the udder is full and then sending the cow back to pasture so the process can be repeated the next day. But if what worked in the past is still working today, then the advent of an alternate energy source makes it is less likely to work as effectively tomorrow. I believe that we should eventually see a decrease in fuel prices trending upwards as EV's and alternate energy sources become more accepted and their adoption becomes more widespread. I agree with the comments from others that note how misinformed the general public still is about EV's and the misconceptions this helps raise as I have witnessed many of them firsthand. If ignorance is bliss, then it appears that the mass market is still in the grazing mode and news of greener pastures is only now starting to trickle in.
 

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I postulated in the Gasoline prices rising thread that consumers aren't concerned with gasoline expense, if, they perceive that the overall economy is flourishing. Kinda' like Jeff Bezos doesn't care about MPG as he feels he is in great financial shape right now. What's $5, $6 or $7/gallon when the future seems to be so bright and full of potential and opportunity? Consumerbots think they will just make more future income to handle the rise in gas cost.

Why buy some rolling seed-looking EV econobox that offers no social prestige and doesn't present an outward trapping of success? Consumers feel comfortable dropping $90K on a Ford 6.7L Diesel F-450 King Ranch making barely 11MPG. And diesel is more expensive than U-Regular. Remember, anyone can get a car loan nowadays, as Subprime Auto Debt Is Booming Even as Defaults Soar (does packaging subprime loans into asset-backed securities ring a bell?), overall credit is pretty easy again (not as easy for housing), thus household high interest (Credit Card) debt is even higher today than just pre-crash 2006.



This current consumer exuberance is actually an economic forecast marker. This environment, like pretty much every recession previously, reveal certain social factors and technical factors that telegraph an oncoming recession. There is no real housing bubble, but there is a mild equities bubble (25% -%35), certainly an auto debt bubble, a cancerous student loan bubble, a fairly substantial corporate debt bubble, and likely worse of all...our Chinese overlords are having a bit of money troubles themselves.

I am parroting myself, but consumers in general aren't that bright. It takes a person of superior intellect to even consider the value of an EV in light of today's technology...not EV tech from 10 years ago. Consider how the members of this forum communicate with one another. The respectful dialogue here is drawn into particularly stark relief when one contrast the lack of tone, timber, and personal decorum found in almost every other Internet Social media site or discussion board.

Give it 18 to perhaps 30 Months at the latest. Your Bolt or other EV, especially when accompanied by Solar, will be sittin' pretty as it relates to your personal financial peace of mind. EV econoboxes will be all the rage. The next recession will probably last a very long time and be exceptionally painful; but it is in this future moment when EV's cross the chasm.
I don't think 98% of the auto market is as stupid as you think they are.
 

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I don't think 98% of the auto market is as stupid as you think they are.
Not stupid in a literal sense, but most consumers, including myself, are prone to frictional laziness. We pretty much follow the herd with most decisions. It's easy, comfortable, and not a lot of stressful thought needed (friction). If one peer group puts an importance on a Dodge Hemi Challenger, then most in that group will think that it's a good vehicle to purchase. Thus, very little thought goes into prioritizing which vehicle to buy.

"There is a heuristic most of us use to determine what to do, think, say, and buy: the principle of social proof. To learn what is correct, we look at what other people are doing." However, this pathology tends to be superseded when there are personal pain points involved. When one has $1,000 in their pocket, a $10 purchase decision is made in a nanosecond. But when one has $50, a $10 purchase will tend to be thoroughly thought out, as it represents a far greater personal financial risk and a greater possibility of pain.

There is a human behavioral reason that the age demographics reveal who buys EV's



Practically 66% of all EV buyers are over 40 years old. 70% hold undergraduate college degrees or better.

I think it's not so much the education factor, but more the age factor. Us old(er) folks have a far better understanding of personal finance, and the past Pains that we experienced due to financial mistakes we made in our younger days. It is this financial pain that compels people to think more (not be as mentally lazy) about their purchase decisions.

My position is EV's are positioned perfectly for the very soon-to-materialize economic downturn. When one is driving that $53K Hemi Challenger SRT, getting 12 MPG and sees many of their friends getting laid off, they will sense the pain. In recessions, people stop buying toys. They look to save and economize because the future is uncertain. Consumers will carefully consider their expenses. This, I believe, will be the opportune situation for EV's to break out of their niche standing.
 

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I still don't understand why car manufacturers need to develop these 400 HP EV's. 150 HP is fine for a small car and 300 HP is more than adequate for a SUV/Pick-up.
There is very little downside to a very powerful EV. There is a relatively small price and weight penalty for having a powerful motor compared to petrol engine, but efficiency remains high for overpowered EVs. I'd be willing to pay a small premium for a powerful EV when there is little range penalty. Heck, the Tesla dual motor EVs are more efficient than the single motor version and more powerful.

The Bolt/Leaf/Kona/etc... won't become main stream until you can purchase them for $25,000, convince people that they are probably the safest small vehicles on the road, the battery is a non-issue, and charging stations are as reliable as finding a gas station.
Agree completely. That, and people actually having access to home charging. What percentage of people who have a garage even park their vehicles inside it? Most of the neighbors around me have garages stuffed full of junk.

This current consumer exuberance is actually an economic forecast marker. This environment, like pretty much every recession previously, reveal certain social factors and technical factors that telegraph an oncoming recession. There is no real housing bubble, but there is a mild equities bubble (25% -%35), certainly an auto debt bubble, a cancerous student loan bubble, a fairly substantial corporate debt bubble, and likely worse of all...our Chinese overlords are having a bit of money troubles themselves.

I am parroting myself, but consumers in general aren't that bright...

Give it 18 to perhaps 30 Months at the latest. Your Bolt or other EV, especially when accompanied by Solar, will be sittin' pretty as it relates to your personal financial peace of mind. EV econoboxes will be all the rage. The next recession will probably last a very long time and be exceptionally painful; but it is in this future moment when EV's cross the chasm.
It always amazes me how little time and thought consumers give to the top 3 "purchases" they will make. Who they marry, where they live, and what car they buy. People spend more time selecting their fantasy football team than figuring out which vehicle is best suited to them and negotiating the best price they can.

Is there something like an auto loan CDO, or only in the housing market? Do you expect rapid inflation at all in the long term? I always figured we will take care of national debt by inflating out of it.

My plan is to buy a used EV in the next 8-14 months. I'm trying to time the market when the Gen I EVs are at the lowest as Gen II sales ramp up. Then when tax credits expire, used EV values will then rise as fewer new cars are purchased.
 

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Its going to take time for EV's to gain a real foothold. I have a real simple way of convincing people to drive an EV...ask them if they would like a car that includes free groceries for as long as you own it.

They look pretty perplexed when I ask them that.

The first thing I ask is how much they spent on gas this week, then divide by 3 and subtract 2/3rds from the original amount to be fair for electricity (being very conservative here). So $30 in gas equals $10 in electricity thereby leaving me $20 to spend on groceries..I proclaim.

Sure would be nice to go to the grocery store every week and pick up $20 worth of free groceries!

You'd be amazed at how many people get that...

Not so long ago we were looking at a barrel of oil at $40. It just hit $70 this week. Give it some time...it won't take too long for someone in the world to get pissed off at somebody else. Once it crosses the $100 a barrel mark and the $20 in free groceries becomes $40 of free groceries a week.

Chevy Bolt...the car that keeps on giving free stuff! Literally.

Get it now?

Of course you do.

See how easy that was to explain. No fancy graph chart necessary.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Its going to take time for EV's to gain a real foothold. I have a real simple way of convincing people to drive an EV...ask them if they would like a car that includes free groceries for as long as you own it.

They look pretty perplexed when I ask them that.

The first thing I ask is how much they spent on gas this week, then divide by 3 and subtract 2/3rds from the original amount to be fair for electricity (being very conservative here). So $30 in gas equals $10 in electricity thereby leaving me $20 to spend on groceries..I proclaim.

Sure would be nice to go to the grocery store every week and pick up $20 worth of free groceries!

You'd be amazed at how many people get that...

Not so long ago we were looking at a barrel of oil at $40. It just hit $70 this week. Give it some time...it won't take too long for someone in the world to get pissed off at somebody else. Once it crosses the $100 a barrel mark and the $20 in free groceries becomes $40 of free groceries a week.

Chevy Bolt...the car that keeps on giving free stuff! Literally.

Get it now?

Of course you do.

See how easy that was to explain. No fancy graph chart necessary.
On the other hand I have asked a couple of random Tesla owners how many miles per kWHr they are getting. They had no idea, but mentioned they get free fillups at the Tesla supercharger stations. Then I read the Road and Track wrap up article on their 2015 high end Model S and learned in the first 5000 miles they were using 47 kWHr/100 miles or in Bolt numbers 2.13 mi/kWh. About 1/2 what my Bolt is getting. So for that Tesla the energy cost per mile was about the same as a Prius.
:nerd:
 

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Not stupid in a literal sense, but most consumers, including myself, are prone to frictional laziness. We pretty much follow the herd with most decisions. It's easy, comfortable, and not a lot of stressful thought needed (friction). If one peer group puts an importance on a Dodge Hemi Challenger, then most in that group will think that it's a good vehicle to purchase. Thus, very little thought goes into prioritizing which vehicle to buy.

"There is a heuristic most of us use to determine what to do, think, say, and buy: the principle of social proof. To learn what is correct, we look at what other people are doing." However, this pathology tends to be superseded when there are personal pain points involved. When one has $1,000 in their pocket, a $10 purchase decision is made in a nanosecond. But when one has $50, a $10 purchase will tend to be thoroughly thought out, as it represents a far greater personal financial risk and a greater possibility of pain.

There is a human behavioral reason that the age demographics reveal who buys EV's



Practically 66% of all EV buyers are over 40 years old. 70% hold undergraduate college degrees or better.

I think it's not so much the education factor, but more the age factor. Us old(er) folks have a far better understanding of personal finance, and the past Pains that we experienced due to financial mistakes we made in our younger days. It is this financial pain that compels people to think more (not be as mentally lazy) about their purchase decisions.

My position is EV's are positioned perfectly for the very soon-to-materialize economic downturn. When one is driving that $53K Hemi Challenger SRT, getting 12 MPG and sees many of their friends getting laid off, they will sense the pain. In recessions, people stop buying toys. They look to save and economize because the future is uncertain. Consumers will carefully consider their expenses. This, I believe, will be the opportune situation for EV's to break out of their niche standing.
"I am parroting myself, but consumers in general aren't that bright. It takes a person of superior intellect to even consider the value of an EV in light of today's technology...not EV tech from 10 years ago."

Come on. Slightly elitist?

From MSN: 2013 "Moreover, more than 60 percent of the nearly 1,000 small-business owners surveyed say they notice no difference between the performance of those employees with college degrees and those without, the report says."

The average age of a new car buyer is 52 years old, smack in the middle of your three (20%) age groups of EV buyers. People buy various different car models and architecture types for a myriad of reasons. If someone buys a Challenger, it's because they like it, not because they are of inferior intellect.
 

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Practically 66% of all EV buyers are over 40 years old. 70% hold undergraduate college degrees or better.

I think it's not so much the education factor, but more the age factor. Us old(er) folks have a far better understanding of personal finance, and the past Pains that we experienced due to financial mistakes we made in our younger days. It is this financial pain that compels people to think more (not be as mentally lazy) about their purchase decisions.
I think it's more likely that people over 40 with undergraduate degrees or better are in their prime earning years, so the cost of an EV is less painful. There is also likely some benefit from inheritances at that point as well.
 

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Consider how the members of this forum communicate with one another. The respectful dialogue here is drawn into particularly stark relief when one contrast the lack of tone, timber, and personal decorum found in almost every other Internet Social media site or discussion board.
I respectfully disagree. The members of my forum focused on old Dodge diesel pickup trucks are truly amazing. Not only is their tone respectful, without my reaping the benefit of their willingness to impart amazing amounts of technical knowledge, my truck would not still be on the road. I hope that in a few years this forum will become equally as helpful to those of us who want to understand and perform maintenance on our own vehicles...


The general public doesn't think of an EV as a real car. The misconceptions about them will be there until people are educated.

The Bolt/Leaf/Kona/etc... won't become main stream until you can purchase them for $25,000, convince people that they are probably the safest small vehicles on the road, the battery is a non-issue, and charging stations are as reliable as finding a gas station.
This is true. I got my first EV (a Nissan Leaf) because Georgia offered a $5,000 tax credit and Nissan offered a two-year lease. Four (out of only twelve) finance guys in my office did the math and immediately leased a Leaf for two years. Leafs were ubiquitous in Atlanta back then. During those two years, I became hooked on the performance, economy and convenience of an EV and I expect I'll never go back to an ICE. I'm anxiously awaiting the release of an EV pickup truck with a range of at least 200 miles...
 
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Come on. Slightly elitist?
Nope. Although sometimes misconstrued as condescending, I'll stand pat on my usage of the phrase 'Superior Intellect' based on it's definition and context of my post.

The average age of a new car buyer is 52 years old, smack in the middle of your three (20%) age groups of EV buyers. People buy various different car models and architecture types for a myriad of reasons. If someone buys a Challenger, it's because they like it, not because they are of inferior intellect.
It would seem this makes my point. I like the Tesla X, really like it. I like the Bolt less than I like the X. Both vehicles will get me from point A to point B using energy I generate, both have ZERO carbon emissions, both steal profit from global oil cartels. I was approved to both finance purchase or lease an X. But in considering the facts of my personal financial situation, I decided to forgo my feelings for the X in favor of the Bolt. 15 years ago I would have likely allowed my feelings to dictate my decision, and have paid the price for it...so to speak.

The average age of a new car buyer is 52 years old, smack in the middle of your three (20%) age groups of EV buyers.
Responsive observation here. Of the very small EV niche segment, why would more mature buyers purchase EV's at about the same rate as ICEv's? This may be in part due to the fact that most EV buyers have 2-car households, and thus when assessing their needs, distance travel is less of a concern.


I think it's more likely that people over 40 with undergraduate degrees or better are in their prime earning years, so the cost of an EV is less painful. There is also likely some benefit from inheritances at that point as well.
Considering that the estimated average transaction price for a new car is about $36,270, and the average price of a used car is about $19,189, it may be that More Affordable 200+ mile range EV's are too new (price wise) for some. It is important to point out that the sale price, and the Total Cost of Ownership are metrics that most consumers don't factor into their buying decisions. When looking at a new car priced at $35,000, and a used car priced at $20,000...it takes a certain level of the faculty of reasoning and understanding objectively, especially with regard to abstract or academic matters to realize the $35,000 purchase may indeed be less costly than the $20,000 purchase.
 

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At the last two EV events I attended, the average person wanted to know if it could climb a hill. Most had no idea that there were practical electric cars already being made. Most said they wouldn't buy a hybrid because they had heard horror stories about the batteries failing. The public is ten years behind the curve, and the dealers are not helping dispel their misconceptions.
Awesome insight. My last car purchase was a Honda Civic Hybrid (2006) and it was a tremendous dog in Colorado mountain highway driving because the battery would be exhausted within 2 miles of a decent hill. FWIW, the battery in the Civic died at 265,000 miles and just under 10 years.
I was blown away by the power in my Bolt. Seriously awesome driving response.
 
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