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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Was actually news to me on the braking performance Bolt vs. Toyota Corolla vs T M3:
60-0 Bolt 132 Foot braking CR recommended
https://www.consumerreports.org/2017-chevrolet-bolt/2017-chevrolet-bolt-review-shockingly-good/

60-0 Corolla 131 Foot braking

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/toyota/corolla/2018/2018-toyota-corolla-xse-first-test-review/

69-0 TM3 152 Foot braking ; CR Can NOT recommend it ...
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/21/tesla-shares-pare-gains-after-automaker-falls-short-of-consumer-report-recommendation.html
 

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With a two year wait to get a Model 3 I don’t believe that a negative CR recommendation will have much affect on sales.

Tesla still has more than 400,000 M3 reservations, but is currently only building about 2,500 - 3,000 a week. Even after Tesla eventually ramps up to 5,000 per week, it will be 2020 before all reservations are filled, provided most reservation holders become owners.

Also, improving braking performance, which was the main CR complaint, should be an issue that Tesla can address relatively quickly. I would assume that most Tesla reservation holders are already aware of the single-screen operational controls, which may be an issue for CR but is seen as a desirable feature by many.
 

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Odd: the Motor Trend road test reported a stopping distance of 119 feet from 60 mph for the Tesla Model 3:

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-3/2017/the-automobile-2-0-chevrolet-bolt-ev-premier-vs-nissan-leaf-sl-vs-tesla-model-3-long-range/

It was a Long Range version of the car, but I don't think that would make it stop in a shorter distance; if anything, the extra battery weight would increase the stopping distance.

This comparison road test has the Bolt stopping in 128 feet. With a decent set of tires, I'm sure it would do better.
 

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Odd: the Motor Trend road test reported a stopping distance of 119 feet from 60 mph for the Tesla Model 3:

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-3/2017/the-automobile-2-0-chevrolet-bolt-ev-premier-vs-nissan-leaf-sl-vs-tesla-model-3-long-range/

It was a Long Range version of the car, but I don't think that would make it stop in a shorter distance; if anything, the extra battery weight would increase the stopping distance.

This comparison road test has the Bolt stopping in 128 feet. With a decent set of tires, I'm sure it would do better.
Car & Driver noted braking issues in their test, one stop was 196 feet! Fred Flintstone could stop quicker than that.

Given all the early quality issues with the M3, and the apparent assembly line chaos (aka “production he**”), is there any surprise that the M3 still has production issues? Maybe Musk has already fired the robot that does brakes, he’s threatened to fire just about everyone else.
 

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Also, improving braking performance, which was the main CR complaint, should be an issue that Tesla can address relatively quickly.
It's a problem any owner can address themselves by changing the tires. All tests are done with OEM tires, which manufacturers select to balance cost, performance, efficiency, noise, etc, etc. You want to stop faster, get gripper tires and understand that range and other criteria may be impacted. There simply isn't a tire that does everything well.
 

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It's a problem any owner can address themselves by changing the tires. All tests are done with OEM tires, which manufacturers select to balance cost, performance, efficiency, noise, etc, etc. You want to stop faster, get gripper tires and understand that range and other criteria may be impacted. There simply isn't a tire that does everything well.
Based on the CR and C&D testing, I doubt that it’s the tires causing the M3 braking issues. The braking distances seem very inconsistent in multiple test runs, that can’t be blamed on tires.

While stickier rubber would certainly help, it won’t fix an issue with how the brakes themselves are performing.
 

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Based on the CR and C&D testing, I doubt that it’s the tires causing the M3 braking issues. The braking distances seem very inconsistent in multiple test runs, that can’t be blamed on tires.

While stickier rubber would certainly help, it won’t fix an issue with how the brakes themselves are performing.
If it's not tires, then it's software, which can / should get updated if it truly is a problem. No way would they undersize the discs and calipers. Those things are always given a huge margin of overbuilt safety.

Would be interesting to know the vehicle state of charge, since as you know, regen is affected by it.
 

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Test drove the TM3

Was at the Honda dealer to get something, and decided to drive 4 blocks down to the Tesla showroom to eyeball the TM3 up close. Somebody cancelled their test drive appointment and I, Johnny on the spot, was lucky enough to slam that opening.



This showroom has two TM3 demo's, both rear-wheel drive LR/310 Mile range,Enhanced Autopilot, Full Self-Driving *Capability*, both about $59,000. Test drive was about 30 minutes, streets and freeway.

My Review (as a Bolt EV owner)

Cons
The large tablet in the center would take some getting use to. It's a distraction at first because I'm not accustomed to looking over there, and even more initially irritating was trying to find what I needed to find; audio, air conditioning, Soc, etc. Not having that instrument cluster behind the wheel, reflexively looking down because every car ones ever been in has it, only to see a wood panel is extremely disconcerting. But much of this can be memorized on the steering controls. No doubt it wouldn't take a TM3 owner long to orient themselves...then ignore it.

I noticed when I sat in the back seat, the upholstery was loose or felt like it had torn away from under the cushions. Not appreciably more rear legroom than the Bolt, and you sit lower with less headroom. But the 3 is a sedan.

Not necessarily a con, but surprisingly, when the two cars are side by side, the TM3 is only about 5" longer, and a few inches wider.

Of any car I have been in, the TM3 was crying for a killer HUD (not the Atari 2600 quality graphics I see on almost every car with an HUD) system. A HUD that displays along the bottom of the windshield with the basics...pretty much like this:



Pros
Traction control. Perhaps because its a RWD, but I couldn't force a tire squeal. Unlike the Bolt where I have to work for it not to burn rubber during a jack rabbit start.

Quick. But not as impressive for a Bolt owner, vs. the guy before me who owned a BMW M5. Much smoother feeling and quieter as well. This must be due to areodynamics, as believe it or not, the Clarity in all-EV mode - although not hardly as quick - shares the same quiet smoothness when accelerating. The Clarity is quieter and has a markedly softer ride IMO BTW.

Handling was so-so for a $60K EV. Better than the Bolt, but I wouldn't say it's $25K better. Especially considering the TM3 has much better tires. Not near the Tesla S performance models.

Although the windshield swept back a little further, it wasn't anything like the wondrous Model X-like driving experience that I had hoped for. But better than anything else out there.

There's something unconsciously magic about the brand. Other drivers notice it, and you're aware people are noticing. Whereas the only people ever to notice my Bolt are the other few and far between Bolt owners.

Conclusion
Other than the above, it was just a nice BEV sedan. I will say an ICEv owners first experience in probably many BEV's is world changing, and even more so when that "first time" is in a Tesla. But coming from a Bolt, I'm very familiar with that thrill. The Tesla person said if I ordered one today, it would be delivered by September sometime...most likely.

Bottom line is if I weren't driving a Bolt, I would be thoroughly impressed.
 

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But since you DO drive a Bolt, how would you compare driving Tesla's version of regen braking vs. our "L" mode? Did you have to use the M3's brake pedal to come to a complete stop?
In most situations you will still need to use the brake to come to a complete stop depending on grade. It regens with an increased drag a few seconds after you let your foot off the accelerator but goes to neutral at about 3 mph. You can change the settings to be more or less regen to taste. If you have a slight uphill, gravity will bring you to a complete stop but with creep mode off, it will coast backwards so you still have push the brake pedal in most cases. If you press slightly more than minimal, it engages a hold mode that allows you to take your foot off the brake and it stays put, kind of like uphill hold on a Subaru.
I think it has something to do with the type of motor they are using, IIRC, the original Roadster had one pedal driving. It probably wouldn't be a hard thing to implement with an OTA software upgrade if enough people asked. The mechanical brake would come into play after the regen looses efficiency similar to how the Leaf now has one pedal driving.
 

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There's something unconsciously magic about the brand. Other drivers notice it, and you're aware people are noticing. Whereas the only people ever to notice my Bolt are the other few and far between Bolt owners.
Oh I don't think it's all that unconscious at all. Teslas are now very much status symbols. This "see and be seen" in and about your Tesla has done as much to sell them as the Supercharger network.
 

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Bottom line is if I weren't driving a Bolt, I would be thoroughly impressed.
X2 and if one could actually buy the mythical $35,000 Tesla M3, it would be a difficult choice.

However, having put in a year and miles on the Bolt, apple/apples, it's a better choice for our urban errand running use. The one-pedal and full stop/stand has to be lived with to fully appreciate. The hatchback has always been our preference for daily use.

It is to be assumed one living with a M3 would find its virtues that the Bolt doesn't have or to the same degree.

Bottom line, a $60,000 car should be more better than a $43,000 car, but it's not that much more better!

jack vines
 

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There's something unconsciously magic about the brand. Other drivers notice it, and you're aware people are noticing. Whereas the only people ever to notice my Bolt are the other few and far between Bolt owners.
It's funny what people will notice. For that feeling, I've driven my Chevy Vega around. Amazing the number of people that will notice and give you the thumbs up. Everyone had one or knew of one but haven't seen one in decades.
 

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It's funny what people will notice. For that feeling, I've driven my Chevy Vega around. Amazing the number of people that will notice and give you the thumbs up. Everyone had one or knew of one but haven't seen one in decades.
I sure as heck would! My neck would snap for sure! I loved my Vega way back when. :cool:
 

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But then there are some who remember the Vega as having the worst POS engine GM ever built. Why did an iron head on an open deck aluminum block ever seem like a good idea? Chevrolet had to replace more of them under warranty than any engine ever.

jack vines
 

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But then there are some who remember the Vega as having the worst POS engine GM ever built. Why did an iron head on an open deck aluminum block ever seem like a good idea? Chevrolet had to replace more of them under warranty than any engine ever.

jack vines
Mine is a 1975. By that time they had put in a bigger radiator. Overheat the engine once and it's toast with that iron head on the aluminum block. Then there was the cylinder wear issue. Found another engine in a wrecking yard that someone had sleeved. Barely enough power to get out of its own way though. Does make one remember the oil embargo days. Sky high gas prices and terrible cars as a result. This is one of reasons why many of my generation have been waiting for a real all electric car. Gasoline is a fickle commodity.
 

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But since you DO drive a Bolt, how would you compare driving Tesla's version of regen braking vs. our "L" mode? Did you have to use the M3's brake pedal to come to a complete stop?
The first request I had was to turn creep off if available. There is a creep setting and it was disabled. I estimate the regen wasn't as strong as the Bolt, and the TM3 would 'coast' under 10MPH, (perhaps a little less than 10MPH) with no regen available. So one absolutely has to use the brake pedal to come to a complete stop. Again, my review is extremely weighted as I have become like that dishwasher detergent commercial where the kid says "...what does the dishwasher dooo?" Getting to comfortable with Bolt "L" driving and I'll be saying "...what does the brake pedal doooo?"

The steering wheel has 2 thumb scroll wheels, that work in conjunction with the center tablet. The driver can adjust the side mirrors, or adjust the steering wheel, or click the AP speed up/down in 5MPH increments, and probably a lot of other stuff. I would like the TM3 owners here to confirm this; you need to interact with the tablet manually to get to the proper screen for these thumb scroll functions to do the thing you want them to do? Can the driver somehow use the thumb scroll to interact with the tablet, and change screens without having to physically touch the tablet?

Otherwise, it would seem that the driver would need a F-14 Tomcat-like Radar Systems Officer in the passenger seat to help manage administration of the car.



It's amazing what aesthetic design can do. The Bolt is seems to be only 5 or 6" shorter, but apparently its 21" shorter. The TM3 is just 3" wider. When I see the TM3 on the street, it seems much wider. But when side-by-side, it's like some optical illusion. Again, visually, the Bolt looks to have a stubby front hood, whereas the TM3's is long and sleek. but from the respective windshield to the most forward tip of the cars, it's not that much difference. perhaps 3-4"?

That 3" width is very evident in the interior of the TM3. The center console arm rest is visibly wider, add that the TM3 seats the passengers in much more of a reclining position (as low slung sedans do). So the driver and passenger can share the arm rest without elbows touching. I imagine this is very comfortable for long distance driving. Whereas the Bolt center arm rest is a one-person arm rest only, as the seating is more upright.
 
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