[SparkE]

As far as Im concerned, only 3 stations need to be built in Califmexifornistan 1. Santa Nella 2. Buttonwillow 3. Barstow Got to get to Vegas without having to go to Victorville from Bakersfield.

It would be *really* useful to get multi-station, 50+ kW (125+A) DCFCs every 70-90 miles up and down I-5 from the OR border (Yreka) to Santa Clarita (just N of L.A.). Even better, two different charging networks doing that, so that the distance between DCFCs is only 35-45 miles. The trip between the SF Bay area and the L.A area is somewhat worrisome at the moment, what with all the crapped-out 24 kW chargers on US-101 (unless you want to drive way out of the way and go down CA-99). The trip from Sacramento up to OR is hair-raising (and very slow, since most DCFCs are singleton 24 kW units).

The only real, gaping holes in the network are (a) the aforementioned I-5 crapfest, (b) SoCal towards the east to Nevada or Arizona, (c) up US-395.

(b) there really should be DCFCs every 80-100 miles or so to allow travel up US-395 all the way to Mono lake, Yosemite, and South Lake Tahoe.

(c) there should be multiple 2- or 4- station DCFCs to allow travel on major routes to NV/AZ, one of them really close to the CA/NV border and then the other about 100 miles "towards LA" : I-10 (Palm Springs & Blythe to get to Phoenix), I-40 (Barstow & Needles to get to Kingman & Flagstaff), I-15 (Barstow & Baker to get to Las Vegas).

Just about every other route/trip is doable with a Bolt - even regional routes (although you might have to wait for a plug).

 

[NewsCoulomb]

The trip between the SF Bay area and the L.A area is somewhat worrisome at the moment, what with all the crapped-out 24 kW chargers on US-101 (unless you want to drive way out of the way and go down CA-99). The trip from Sacramento up to OR is hair-raising (and very slow, since most DCFCs are singleton 24 kW units).

That hasn't been my experience.

On the Highway 101 route: I only use the 24 kW chargers as an emergency backup (i.e., a 125 A charger is down or I miscalculated range). Otherwise, the Bolt EV doesn't really have a problem bridging 120 to 140 mile gaps between the 50 kW DCFC, even at freeway speeds. Yes, a four-stall charger in King City would be great, but the Bolt EV manages just fine right now.

The problem with taking Highway 101 from SF to LA is that it is longer just in driving time than taking I-5 or Highway 99. While you might shave 15 minutes off the trip taking I-5 instead of Highway 99, the flow of traffic on Highway 99 is typically better. In either case, they are both almost an hour faster than Highway 101. The only reason I can justify taking Highway 101 instead of Highway 99 is that I live in Ventura, another 45 minutes from LA. Even then, Highway 101 is technically the slower route.

The Highway 99 route is ridiculously well supported (given the current state of the public charging infrastructure). Most of the charging points are dual chargers (with dual ports) and 125 A.

On I-5 north of Sacramento, again, the 24 kW chargers can be used as backups until Yreka, near the Oregon border. The 50 kW ChargePoint in Mount Shasta is built but hasn't yet opened, and and the four 150+ kW Electrify America chargers in Dunnigan are being constructed as we speak.

The biggest problem, as you've mentioned, is the number of chargers per site. In densely populated EV areas, even the two-stall locations are starting to be overrun with regional EV traffic, but the single-charger locations in the boonies have been relatively open.

This is something EVgo is going to need to address with their own network moving forward. By building the Baker charger location, they opened that corridor to short-range EVs. As a consequence, the Victorville charger went from hardly being used to a major bottleneck in the network. Essentially, EVgo is going to need to start looking at their network as a system of chargers, rather than isolated charging points (this is something Electrify America is doing well).

 

[shotel]

All will be pleased to know that all of your worries will soon be resolved!

ChargePoint Plans To Install 2.5 Million EV Chargers In Next 7 Years

~ CleanTecnica

That's right! A company that bleeds more money than you know who, and currently operates 54,000 or so charging ports, is coming to your rescue. This is a "Funding Secured" moment for the tiny handful of BEV drivers that insist someone else foot the bill for their personal conveniences.

There are less than 300,000 gas stations in the world. The most aggressive forecast for non-Tesla BEV's in 7 years is about 8 Million (4 million if you exclude China - where ChargePoint does not operate - it only has operations in 8 countries) . Which computes to about 3 ChargePoint charging ports for every single non-Tesla BEV! Each of these charging ports cost about $30,000 to $50,000 installed. And since the average BEV driver spends far less than $10/Month on public charging (as I recall, the big advantage of BEVs is to charge AT HOME 99% of the time), and there is a small cost for the ga-zillion GW of electricity that will be required, ChargePoint should see an ROI in about 100,000 years. $100 Billion is chump change.

But that's ok, it's not our $$$ that is going to fund this. We are entitled by birthright to have what we want, where we want, and when we want...without ever risking one thin dime of our own money!

Seriously folks... no...wait...I am being serious. When the industry pronouncements get so insane, so unbelievable, so batsh!t bizarre, that we want to desperately believe - it's time to realize that the future of BEV's is bleak.

 

[NewsCoulomb]

Seriously folks... no...wait...I am being serious. When the industry pronouncements get so insane, so unbelievable, so batsh!t bizarre, that we want to desperately believe - it's time to realize that the future of BEV's is bleak.

Um, those 2.5 million include what has already been built, and a vast majority of those 2.5 million chargers are going to be L2 (so most will cost a fraction of that $30,000+ per unit to implement). The 2.5 million really isn't that outlandish given that ~20% of Americans live in multi-unit dwellings with no onsite charging.

According to an NREL study, EV drivers do about 80% of their charging at home. That means that the public charging infrastructure only really needs to support 20-40% of the population (those who cannot charge at home and those who are traveling). Looking at gas stations, we have ~150,000 in the United States. With even a 6 pump per station average, we're at ~900,000 pumps to support 100% of drivers. If we then take the high of 40% of EV owners charging away from home, we need about 360,000 public charging points.

But, because not all refueling is equal, we need to look at how many miles of range these various refueling pumps can add per hour (or even minute). Obviously, gasoline wins. Those 900,000 pumps can each, on average, add about 100 miles per minute of operation. Now, gas pumps are only active a fraction of the time. Let's say 15% to be generous. That's about 19.5B miles a day of range they are doling out. Let's go back to that 40% of EV owners charging away from home. That's 7.8B miles of range per day that the public infrastructure needs to be able to provide. The miles per day can vary from under 300 miles a day for 16 A L2 AC to over 33,000 miles a day for 350 kW. But let's just say an average of 5,000 miles (skewing toward the L2 side). That leaves us with a mix of nearly 1.5 million public charging points of various speeds.

Of course, that's all just a big thought experiment, but with a little diligence and research, we could come to a reasonable figure.

Now, as for the energy consumption required to transition to 100% EVs... it's really not that much. If you take all of the gasoline consumed in the United States for personal transportation, times it by 33.7 (the kWh of energy per gallon of gasoline), assume an average conversion efficiency of 25%, and then compare that energy to the total electrical energy consumed by the United States.... Our total electricity consumption would only increase by about 20%.

 

[shotel]

Nope. “Most EV owners will charge at home 95% of the time.”
The 80% figure is outdated (from 2003), before "Modern" BEV's.

You're right, ChargePoint is probably including what they have built out already, so they only need to install another, 2,440,000 ports to reach this ridiculous prognostication.

But let me share something positive that you encouraged me to research, which is also another reason why I believe public charging is DOA.

From my understanding of reading through the documentation; CCS version 2.0 can kill public charging in the blink of an eye, while providing BEV distance drivers such as yourself with literally millions more places to plug in. CCSv2 removes the need for prehistoric "big Box" complicated, proprietary charging installations. You, me, or anyone can set up a public EV charging port with nothing more than a 100Amp 208V outlet. That's it. Nothing else. (BTW, load balancing is also a part of this protocol, which is why a 240 unit apartment building can now have 80 EV charging DCFC stalls with just 1MW of available power on the cheap)

Every retail, commercial, or private facility can make a few extra bucks a Month, with perhaps just enough investment to get a conduit out to an area a EV can park besides. There can be 100's of these located in just a few square blocks. Depending on the power availability, there could be 20 at a highway rest area.

How? A small, low cost "smart" adapter, the size of a household junction box can be placed between the wire termination and a common dockside receptacle on a post or wall (like an RV park)...something like this M4100R12 100A 250V Dockside Receptacle:

The adapter controls the on/off and - the important part - communications between the vehicle and the 3rd party billing system (in the cloud).
The CCS Combo cable is NOT provided by the system, but is provided by the vehicle owner. A "Smart CCS cable" Something like this (yes I know its not the same connector):

Thus, the CCSv2 capable vehicle, the Smart CCS Combo cable, and the adapter communicate in exactly the same way as a walk-in freezer size DCFC station does now. The vehicle has a unique identifier, like a Smartphones EIN (or more to the point, like a Tesla), the cable relays communications to the smart adapter, and that adapter regulates current as needed, as well as communicates with any central billing system. This was demonstrated at the last International ISO/IEC 15118 CCS Testing Symposium which I believe was in Shanghai last Month.

EVgo, ChargePoint and the like, who are embedded with centralized solutions, will have a difficult time competing with an open source, distributed system where any Jack in the Box Franchisee or any corner mom and pop shop can provide the same service, without the requirement of investment, nor the need to even make a profit. There is ZERO barrier to entry with CCS v2. Providing a stupid plug ain't rocket science, it's the underlying management and communications standards. The public charging business model doesn't make sense on so many different levels to begin with, and will only die quicker now.

Can I convince you to be our Forums emissary at the next International ISO/IEC 15118 Testing Symposium, to be held in November in Arnhem, Netherlands? This is where the real charging technology is developed, and where the real players in the industry meet. No need to beg EVgo for jack squat anymore the way I see it. But you need to attend and confirm.

 

[SparkE]

shotel -

what you describe :

1) ... isn't going to help me much to drive from SF to Vegas in a reasonable amount of time. Sure, it will make it easier for me to charge up once I get there, but I am going to need 50-150 kW fast charging on the road.

2) ... doesn't describe how I *find* the 'smart outlet', and more importantly how to find one that is available, and the cheapest one available. ChargePoint (as an example) really sells their 'network' - you don't have to buy the H/W from them (altho many do). They ARE the "3rd party billing system" and the entity that publishes info about where they are and what is available. I don't see them being negatively affected by this - maybe even the opposite.

3) ... doesn't address setting it up. The H/W that you do all the handwaving about has to be sold, installed, and then somehow linked in - by somebody (?maybe ChargePoint?).

4) ... *IS* 'public charging', so I am at a loss why you are claiming that with CCSv2 "public charging is DOA".

 

[shotel]

Great questions @SparkE !

It was a little late when I put that together. But hopefully I can clarify some.

1) ... isn't going to help me much to drive from SF to Vegas in a reasonable amount of time. Sure, it will make it easier for me to charge up once I get there, but I am going to need 50-150 kW fast charging on the road.

I am assuming a small business, or retail shop has single phase 400Amp service coming in. From my experience in small industrial, its 400A 3-Phase. Please correct me, but a 100A or 125A 208V single circuit, pulled from a main breaker to some location should be sufficient for use as a 50kW L3 Charger? Since the Bolt can only charge at a max rate of about 57kW at the beginning of a charge, your time spent at this "outlet" shouldn't be much more than a 150A 208V base feed.

3) ... doesn't address setting it up. The H/W that you do all the handwaving about has to be sold, installed, and then somehow linked in - by somebody (?maybe ChargePoint?).

Going out of order here as I think this part is very important. Yes, the provider side (any entity with the above incoming power) would have the expense of running conduit, proper gauge wiring, and mounting to the location from the main breaker. Also Electrician and, perhaps permitting. Once complete, there are bare wires that will be connected to a low cost management interface adapter. Inside, are the mechanisms to on/off, manage current, and most importantly, communicate over IP (VPN) to the public Internet to some main system. When your CCSv2 enabled Bolt is plugged in, it handshakes and identifies itself, and authenticates back to the main system. The main system communicates back to the adapter to turn on the current, and manage the session. You log into to the billing providers app on your phone...or on the Bolts Info-tainment screen. And YES, the billing provider should be ChargPoint, or EVgo, as they already have the backend systems. But could be some new competitor.

2) ... doesn't describe how I *find* the 'smart outlet', and more importantly how to find one that is available, and the cheapest one available. ChargePoint (as an example) really sells their 'network' - you don't have to buy the H/W from them (altho many do). They ARE the "3rd party billing system" and the entity that publishes info about where they are and what is available. I don't see them being negatively affected by this - maybe even the opposite.

The Smart adapter is always in communication with the main host system, and perhaps even a general data system like PlugShare, WAZE, or Google maps. Internal adapter diagnostics can test and continuously communicate its availability to these above mentioned systems, and of course, like everything else, its geolocating itself. You are correct, existing charging network providers would be smart IMO to transition from centralized to decentralized services model. They can became a PayPal, so to speak, of the eBay of distributed EV charging. eBay, like Amazon is just a market maker. They really sell nothing directly (Amazon does), they just put buyers and sellers together in real time, broker the transaction, and take their cut from both sides.

If I have a KOA campground on I5 outside of Modesto, CA with a restaurant or trinket shop- I may be incentivised to invest a small amount to get consumer traffic in the door that I would not have without it. If I were the Subway Sandwich Franchiser (or some other massive chain), as a show of public goodwill, I may mandate that franchisees make this service available where possible.

4) ... *IS* 'public charging', so I am at a loss why you are claiming that with CCSv2 "public charging is DOA".

I stand corrected and humbly Acquiesce to your correct observation and assessment.

Would have been better stated that some incumbent public network charging providers will hold steadfast to their legacy model, and suffer the fate of a Blockbuster Video. Whereas others will see the writing on the wall, reorganize themselves and reap the success of a Netflix.

The potential I am seeing with CCS v2 (and BTW, ChadMO seems to have similar protocols now), is the possibility of distributed services, kinda' like how a retail outfit can offer a public bathroom. (That analogy was all I could think of at the moment... ). This "adapter" box is just a miniaturized commodity version of what we encounter now.

But I suggest we enlist @NewsCoulomb to 'take one for the team', head over to Europe in the Winter, and explore in depth these possibilities - as well as speak directly to the movers and shakers of the industry. Remember, the CCS (Combined Charging System) is a Industry Standard created, developed, and maintained by its founding conglomerate: Jaguar, Volkswagen, General Motors, BMW, Daimler, Ford, FCA, Tesla and Hyundai. When @NewsCoulomb arrives, he will be hob-nobbing with the best source information professionals. He will then be in the best position to confirm if my theory here is viable.

 

[Paul Gipe]

Just FYI, I might not be who you think I am. I'm Eric, not Jeff... though Jeff and I have broken bread... well, maybe not literally. 0

Sorry for the confusion.


Paul

 

[Inductance]

Great questions @SparkE !
I am assuming a small business, or retail shop has single phase 400Amp service coming in. From my experience in small industrial, its 400A 3-Phase. Please correct me, but a 100A or 125A 208V single circuit, pulled from a main breaker to some location should be sufficient for use as a 50kW L3 Charger? Since the Bolt can only charge at a max rate of about 57kW at the beginning of a charge, your time spent at this "outlet" shouldn't be much more than a 150A 208V base feed.

I'm having a little trouble following your math. 100A at 208V comes to 20.8 kW. How does that supply 50kW to a portable DCFC?

I'm also having trouble picturing the small simple adaptor you're describing. A DCFC has all of the circuitry that's in your car's built-in AC charger, plus its own power conditioning and cooling equipment, and the circuitry to communicate with the car. The portable DCFCs I can find specs on weigh 80 pounds plus for 20kW units, not to mention cost several thousand dollars.

We as consumers would be well served by the car manufacturers increasing the capacity of the AC charger in the car beyond 240V/32A. The J1772 standard supports up to 80A for single-phase charging, which matches your 100A circuit with the 20% derating for continuous loads. That doesn't help current car owners, but it adds a path toward faster trips for those outside the large cities and interstate corridors as EV penetration increases.

I think that the business model for 50kW DCFCs is not strongly affected by the ability for individual businesses to supply 20kW AC to people who bring an extra piece of equipment. Furthermore, the business model for 150kW, 200kW or 350kW DCFCs is unaffected. I'd be happy to see faster AC charging, but the two should complement each other well.

 

[shotel]

100A at 208V comes to 20.8 kW. How does that supply 50kW to a portable DCFC?

I'm also having trouble picturing the small simple adaptor you're describing. A DCFC has all of the circuitry that's in your car's built-in AC charger, plus its own power conditioning and cooling equipment, and the circuitry to communicate with the car. The portable DCFCs I can find specs on weigh 80 pounds plus for 20kW units, not to mention cost several thousand dollars.

In searching for a adjustable L2 adapter last spring in response to a member here, I found and purchased this:

12-32A Adjustable 120-240V Charger EVSE

Its a L2 - no frills - EVSE-in-a-cable. At least that's what is acts like. I plug it into a 50A 208V plug in the garage and it charges both EV's as fast as the JuiceBox. It's portable, I can pull the cable out to the driveway to charge.

Clearly my electrical math is way off based on your calculations. However, my theory revolves around the fact that this EVSE-in-a-cable takes the place of a larger wall mounted EVSE. But it doesn't have Wi-Fi and an app or any of that, which I realized I don't need anyway, as the cars tell me everything I care to know about the charging process. It charges at 7.68kW and I don't think there is any cooling or power conditioning going on in the cable.

Also an assumption in my theory is the legacy gargantuan units we see from EVgo, ChargePoint and the like probably have a lot of circuitry and other heavy lifting going on inside. But why? How much power conditioning and cooling is actually needed for a 50kW DCFC?

In terms of size of unit (provider-side adapter) , the below is a 25kW Level-3 DCFC

And here are it's relevant specs:

This unit was introduced some time ago. I now understand I can't change the electrical math, but would doubling the output from 25kW to 50kW increase the unit size 20 fold - like what we encounter in the wild? I would like to think that 50kW DCFC service could be delivered in the same physical footprint, or smaller. I do see that the source feed would need to be 208V AC 3-phase/180Amp? Which I think many, if most commercial properties have in excess.

Cost wise, the 25kW DCFC Delta unit is $7K. It is not mass produced. Would it be feasible to mass produce a 50kW unit of the same size, for a retail cost of half of that or a lot less? Especially considering no cable would be required as that would be provided by the EV owner.

I'm also being influenced by my experiences in Data Centers. 10 years ago, servers and circuitry demanded Operating Temperature Ranges of 0°C ~ 24°C, today "modern" systems operate in the 0°C ~ 47°C range. Newly commissioned Data Centers don't even have air conditioning, just evaporative cooling. I would expect (hope) these same thermal advancements could be employed for this as well.

 

[NewsCoulomb]

Sorry for the confusion.


Paul

No problem. Jury is still out on whether Jeff is offended! :laugh:

 

[Inductance]

In searching for a adjustable L2 adapter last spring in response to a member here, I found and purchased this:

I have that model too, and it worked great for going camping — we could set up the tent in a spot with RV electrical service, and leave in the morning with a full charge. 240V/50A service with a NEMA 14-50 is common in RV parks and campgrounds (but by no means ubiquitous!)

Clearly my electrical math is way off based on your calculations. However, my theory revolves around the fact that this EVSE-in-a-cable takes the place of a larger wall mounted EVSE.

I see where you are coming from, and the issue is a DCFC is not an EVSE. I’ll try and sum up what I know about them, and lay out why I don’t think there’s a market for a portable DCFC such that merchants would put in large (beyond NEMA 14-50) sockets for customers.

An EVSE is fundamentally an overgrown GFCI outlet: it is a 240V AC plug with a signal to tell the car how much power it can safely draw and several safety sensors to cut off the power if there is anything wrong (the car draws too much power, any of the pins of the plug disconnect, current flows onto the ground pin, etc). Your car has a charger that takes AC power and converts it into just the right DC voltage to charge the battery, given the state of charge and temperature and all: for a Bolt that’s between 330V and 400V going from empty to full, if I recall correctly.

A DCFC takes AC from the grid and bypasses the car’s DC charger, supplying the battery with exactly the DC voltage the car asks for at any given time. So, where the EVSE doesn’t change the electrical current coming in at all, the DCFC has a large amperage AC to DC converter that can supply a moderately wide range of output voltages and currents precisely and with minimal losses (5-10%). That’s where all of the power conditioning comes in, and the cooling — 10% of 50kW is 5kW of heat to dissipate. And there isn’t much room for improvement on those losses, whereas PC power supplies have gone from absolute crap (65% efficient?) to where power supply vendors are advertising 85 to 90% efficiency if you pay more.

The equipment cost for DCFCs might come down by half if they were making them in huge quantities, but a lot of the cost goes into the copper and iron and power semiconductors. The Delta or Bosch 25kW units are about the largest and most expensive I can imagine an individual buying (and I met someone who did). That’s a large investment for something that you aren’t sharing with anyone else.

The cabinets on the EVgo and Electrify America units are large because they can be, honestly. It gives them space to rack-mount the equipment inside, and to air cool the components. Also, if they’re 8 feet tall EV drivers can find them across the parking lot, and non-EV drivers don’t slam into them. ChargePoint sells a much thinner 50kW unit (a foot deep) but as tall and wide, with liquid cooling. There’s an older 50kW model I’ve used that’s a cube about 2 1/2 feet on a side, with cables on either side. So there’s room to make them smaller, but not a lot lighter — probably not something you can carry for any distance.

Incidentally, even plugging a portable 50kW unit in would be a challenge — the portable power cable alone would weigh something like 2 pounds per foot! (480V 100A three-phase, so four conductors of 0 gauge wire...) This is why Electrify America is making a big deal out of the liquid cooled cables on their 350kW ABB fast chargers — charging a Porsche would be quite a workout without that.

Does that make sense?

 

[SparkE]

Yes, it makes perfect sense. The H/W for a powerful DC fast charger is big because it has to be, and expensive because ... it costs a lot to make. Just because there is a protocol to allow handshaking, identification, and billing doesn't mean that the hardware requirements disappear. Heck, there has been a public, open-source standard for public chargers for quite a while now: Open Charge Point Protocol (OCPP).

Oh, and I am pretty sure that the Delta / Bosch 25kW units are the same unit made by somebody else and just re-sold under their name/brand. The 'great' thing about this unit is:
(1) it can be hooked up to single-phase 240V (it doesn't require 3-phase)
(2) it is 'relatively' cheap, at about $7K-$9K

The 'not so great' thing is that it would take almost 2 hours to charge a Bolt to about 80% from empty. Not very useful for freeway travel (very useful for charging the Bolt while going to the movies or eating dinner around town). This is the type of charger GREAT for small malls, where you expect/hope the (local) customer will stay for an hour or two.

Edit: Oh, and the 25kW DCFC is technically a DC level 2 charger, not level 3. In fact, almost all of the CCS DCFCs installed in the U.S. are DC level-2.

Here's the SAE chart :

 

[Paul Gipe]

Don't you mean DC Level 1 according to that chart?


Paul
Thanks for posting that.

 

[shotel]

Does that make sense?

Your explanation absolutely makes sense. Just like our beloved Smartphones, the batteries are charged using DC current, and we all need a "brick" adapter to plug into a common AC wall outlet that makes the AC-->DC conversion. DCFC systems offload the AC->DC conversion, which in an BEV/PHEV are internally limited.

For further clarity, my goal is to identify realistic options for DCFC systems that are:
A.) Small, but not necessarily "portable". You mentioned portability and I am seeking a DCFC no larger than the Delta system pictured.
B.) Much, much, much overall lower cost/port than what the public providers use now.
C.) No more than 60kW -

With the ultimate target of the potential of delivering a cost effective DCFC "drop in" for commercial establishments that already have the power needs plumbed at the MPOE. Then, the next hurdle would be the billing component - which would be streamlined by the CCS 2.0 standards and back-end billing networks.

From what I can find, the stand up cost for a Public DCFC are about $50,000 per port to $80,000 per port. Then there is the cost of the location, and utility power, and maintenance.

Today's Public DCFC charging systems are not viable business models. The high non-recurring expense of DCFC installations, as well all of the other recurring-cost can not possibly yield a profit. Ever. Moreover, the EV environment is dynamic (to a degree). Although I doubt it, but if BEV's manufacturers are somehow able to double the battery range (which based on the latest entrants to the BEV market space will not happen), while keeping the cost the same, then instantly, there would be less of a need for Public chargers. And as always, public charging, unlike gas stations, are always competing with home charging, which again already counts for 95% of owners charging needs.

I was really on a quest to figure out how multi-unit residential could affordably offer mass charging ports for their tenants, as I feel that it's the home charging-challenged (the 45% of people who live in rentals and lack charging ports) that are the biggest hindrance to EV plug-in adoption, and not the boneheaded contrived notion that a hand full of long distance driving needs must be accomplished by a system that equals the refueling time convenience of ICE travel. I get the now irrational range anxiety fear, as well as the "time to charge Trauma" that potential buyers may have, but this is a educational issue, and not a technical one of epic investment requirements.

I cringe when EV drivers demand public DCFC charging facilities be constructed, on someone else's dime, at locations convenient for their individual - and typically rare - long distance driving needs. This entitlement mentality does not take into consideration the fact that at least two of the major Public Charging systems were born of punishments for Civil penalties for Criminal Corporations. Electrify America would not exist if VW had not been caught defrauding it's customers at a massive scale. And EVgo was created and funded by the Civil settlement steaming from High Crimes committed by Dynegy (now re-branded NRG) for fleecing California rate payers during the 2001 power crisis, right along with Enron. ChargePoint is 11 years in business, has raised $292M over 9 rounds, and must continue to raise capital to keep their doors open.

The recent @NewsCoulomb video->

speaks to the need for businesses to embrace providing DCFC's as part of marketing. I think he understands that open/public DCFC systems can not fill the needs of plug-in EV's in any reasonable way ongoing. Thus, my effort in coming up with some real-world viable options:

A compact, low cost (less than $5K) stand alone 60kW DCFC box that any commercial operation can effectively plug-in to their existing power source and offer this level of charging to EV drivers. This is the only reasonable way I see to expand DCFC destination locations - other than to rely on criminals to atone for the crimes against citizens.

 

[NewsCoulomb]

A compact, low cost (less than $5K) stand alone 60kW DCFC box that any commercial operation can effectively plug-in to their existing power source and offer this level of charging to EV drivers. This is the only reasonable way I see to expand DCFC destination locations - other than to rely on criminals to atone for the crimes against citizens.

Thanks for the plug. :laugh: But, yes, right now, I think advertising is the biggest return on investment that DCFC implementations currently provide. Something that I forgot to mention in my video is that tens of thousands of people currently rely on services like PlugShare, which function as advertisements for the local businesses that install fast chargers. Businesses are bringing in far more customers based off of PlugShare entries than they do off of their large billboard ads. Whatever they are budgeting for billboards could be directed at DCFC installations instead with a better return on investment.

But to your point, I agree that bringing the cost of the units down would be paramount. I would say that, ideally, your 60 kW DCFC boxes would be able to link. I might even suggest going a step further, where you have 30 kW units that could link. In combination with a medium-size battery backup (20 to 60 kWh... essentially, two to four Tesla PowerWalls), which already has value for businesses even without the EV charging component, would make an ideal setup for most of the major fast-food chains along freeways. Set aside four out-of-the-way parking spaces, with the maximum potential for 120 kW of service. If your pricing structure is correct, the entire implementation (including the grid-tie battery system) would cost less than a singe, 50 kW unit currently costs (and, with wall mounting, could have a smaller overall footprint).

 

[Inductance]

From what I can find, the stand up cost for a Public DCFC are about $50,000 per port to $80,000 per port. Then there is the cost of the location, and utility power, and maintenance.

That cost to deploy chargers is a stumbling block to efforts to increase EV adoption, and I’m eager to see ways to lower it as well. Here are three things I’ve seen recently that I think are promising for reducing DCFC deployment costs:

1) Electric utilities are beginning to win permission to rate-base the “make ready” electrical infrastructure for fast chargers and public/workplace/MUD L2 chargers. What that means is that they can fund the service upgrades, transformers and other work required for site preparation for charger installation out of their capital investment, and be paid back over time by electric rates. That shaves a third to a half off of the costs you laid out for a DCFC. The larger utilities in both Massachusetts and California have had decisions recently allowing them to do so.

2) EVgo demonstrated a low-infrastructure DCFC design dubbed FastStart this week at the SPI conference. It consists of two 50kW DCFC units attached to a steel platform that can be forklifted into place and plugged in (I presume to some pretty massive power plugs). Not having to trench, pour concrete, or run electric conduit to the precise site of the charger could help with bringing the startup costs down. Making fast chargers into a service that can be rented by the month, or that can be rolled out to test the market or if demand suddenly increases, will do a lot for helping us get chargers where we need them to be.

3) Several companies are testing DCFCs with used EV batteries to store some of the power needed for fast charging. Energy storage manufacturers are looking at previous generation EVs as a source of usable battery modules. If chargers have battery storage that they can draw on when charging a car, and recharge either from the grid or from local solar power, they could cut down on the infrastructure costs to install them. To me, that means they can be easily added in places where they’ll get intermittent use, or where the demand isn’t there yet, or where unenlightened utilities are charging large peak demand fees.

I hope any or all of these can make a dent in DCFC costs beyond the public investments and the legal settlements currently ongoing, and help make fast charging a viable business for the long term.

 

[shotel]

2) EVgo demonstrated a low-infrastructure DCFC design dubbed FastStart this week at the SPI conference. It consists of two 50kW DCFC units attached to a steel platform that can be forklifted into place and plugged in (I presume to some pretty massive power plugs).

Not quite as "small" as hoped, but a step in the right direction - and they are literally set up for a fork lift.

@NewsCoulomb (oh, I haven't forgotten about your trip to Europe in a couple Months...) idea about placing these chargers at utility substations should be investigated. Take a look at the Southern California Edison Substation map:

 

[GJETSON]