Chevy Bolt EV Forum banner

1 - 20 of 96 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
36 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
The Tesla supercharge stations are all across the U.S. from sea to shining sea. Tesla has invested heavily in the DCFC infrastructure structure preparing for the model 3 release. They charge at 80KW and can add 200 miles in 30 minutes. The Bolt can also charge at 80 kilowatts but there are no CCS stations that will do this. And there are lots of 300+ mile gaps out in the Midwest making long distance trips impossible at the present.

The CCS standard is well established, so what is holding up the expansion of the infrastructure and following the example of Tesla?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
782 Posts
Superchargers can charge at up to 120,000 watts - and most installed superchargers a 160,000 watt pairs (160,000 watts shared between two stalls) - since charging tapers while the cars are charging load shifts from one car to other…
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
782 Posts
also I believe the Chevy Bolt is currently limited to 60,000 watts - not 80,000 - 80 may be possible, but Chevy hasn't chosen to enable it - I welcome correction with source of evidence.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,496 Posts
I saw that, too, and realized the significance of having all 2000 of the dealers choosing to sell/service Bolts have DCFC at the dealership, but missed the significance of that 80 kW remark. However, haven’t several of us seen upwards of 90 range miles in 30 minutes, even at the lower (40 kW {400v times 100a}) power? If the Bolt’s internal cooling can handle 80kW, does this mean we could see charging rates of >200 rmpch?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,291 Posts
I thought the Bolt was maxed out at 50 kW DCFC. Even with the manual's numbers, it says 90 miles are added in 30 minutes. I assume after 30 minutes DCFC on the Bolt tapers off. So if 30 minutes is 90 miles, that's 90/238 = 37.8% battery added = 22.68 kW in 30 minutes. Ignoring tapering, in a full hour you theoretically could get 2 * 22.68kW = 45.38 kWh which is approx. the 50 kW charger limit for the Bolt I keep seeing everywhere online.

Wouldn't an 80 kW DCFC station mean that in an hour, it delivers 80 kW to a car that can handle it? So if the Bolt did allow for 30 mins of peak DCFC charging rate at 80 kW/hr, wouldn't that mean 40 kW could be delivered which is 2/3 * 238 mi = 158 mi delivered in 30 mins?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
36 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
I thought the Bolt was maxed out at 50 kW DCFC. Even with the manual's numbers, it says 90 miles are added in 30 minutes.

Wouldn't an 80 kW DCFC station mean that in an hour, it delivers 80 kW to a car that can handle it? So if the Bolt did allow for 30 mins of peak DCFC charging rate at 80 kW/hr, wouldn't that mean 40 kW could be delivered which is 2/3 * 238 mi = 158 mi delivered in 30 mins?
At the present I don't think anyone knows what the Max DC charge capacity of the Bolt is, because there are no CCS DCFC stations over 50 kW. And most of the CCS stations are only putting out 24 kW DC at ridiculously high rates.

Your math is correct excluding the tapering off factor. At 80kw including the tapering off I think a Bolt at 10% SOC could be 90% SOC charged in an hour. This is what the Tesla EV's are doing on the supercharger stations.

Tesla is planning to upgrade to 150 KW DC charging and when they do I sure hope they will make an adapter for CCS EVS. Short of this adapter I don't see the CCS infrastructure coming anywhere close to the Tesla Supercharger infrastructure in the near future. And this is the only glaring negative feature that I see in the Bolt EV experience.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,387 Posts
"The CCS standard is well established, so what is holding up the expansion of the infrastructure and following the example of Tesla?"

This is a capitalist country, with no central planning. We will get a CCS network if/when somebody thinks they can make money off it. To date, nobody has actually made money on anything EV related to my knowledge.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,496 Posts
There will never be a Supercharger to CCS plug adapter as long as Tesla collects the lifetime (of the car) cost of electricity upfront in the EV price. WE have not paid for the electricity already, and I see NO indication of Tesla’s developing a way for us to pay per charge, either by time or by kWh delivered.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,387 Posts
At this point, Elon would be a fool to allow other carmaker's cars to use his Superchargers. They are his one ace in the hole. Established carmakers will have little problem producing a few thousand EVs, at a loss, to drain away customers, if he actually starts producing affordable cars. But without a huge charging infrastructure, they will continue to be a curiosity.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
782 Posts
Tesla supports pay-per-use charging - they are doing it for the Model 3 - superchargers are capable of billing and tracking which car is charging - so they can tell the difference between a lifetime Model S/X and a pay-per-use Model 3...it's simply a matter of a hardware adapter and a business agreement for other companies to use the Tesla Supercharging network…there are photos on the internet of Volvo test mules plugged into Tesla European superchargers - but the driver refused to answer any questions from the person who took the picture.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
782 Posts
basically there is a activation protocol where the superchargers check with the mothership to see if a car is allowed to charge - I'm sure there is an ID exchanged and the central system "authorizes" the charging or not based on what is registered in the master accounts DB this is because:

a) not all Tesla owner's have "paid" for the unlimited supercharging - so even though the plug can fit it won't delivery any juice until it's authorized
b) some existing/future Tesla owners are on a per-per-kWh plan

Elon has been very vocal about his willingness to let other's use the supercharger network - but I think it's a matter of:

1. hardware adapters
2. business agreements
3. $$$
4. company brand/pride - I don't see Porsche/BMW for example being really happy about telling their customers to use Tesla superchargers for road trips…I don't think it's Tesla's hang up - I think it's all the other manufacturers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
739 Posts
Charger power, and likelihood of higher power in the future.

One of the issues with CCS charging is the 30 minute limit imposed by the commercial chargers such as EVgo and ChargePoint. If you phone them up and ask about it, they tell you that their chargers were originally set up for Leaf vehicles, but they are working on changing things for the Bolt EV. The implications of this 30 minute limit are that if you need an hour of charging, which will move you to 80% charge from a low range remaining, you plug in and are disconnected after 30 minutes. Then you have to go back and restart the charging to obtain your hour of charging. If you start charging from a higher range remaining, you are disconnected after less than 30 minutes, after either the first or second charge, because the charger will only charge to 80% of full battery charge.

The best charger I ever encountered in my recent fun with long-distance driving was at a municipal parking lot in PA. I used this charger a couple of times, and it just kept charging right up to 80% charge, without me having to go back and restart the charging after the first 30 minutes. During my trip planning and driving, I found myself charging more often by pulling in for charging with a higher range left. This meant that 30 minutes was usually sufficient and I did not have to mess around restarting chargers. Luckily, most chargers are in much nicer places than gas stations on highways, so it was easy to find a good place for a coffee or pleasant meal while charging. The other reason to stop more often is to make sure you have enough range left to bridge those bits of highway that have no chargers available.

I have charged at a couple of Chevrolet dealers, and they only had chargers capable of about 25 kW, so I soon stopped using the dealers' chargers. These installations have equipment this is supplied by Chevrolet, so its inexplicable why they are not at the 50 kW level. This makes a HUGE difference while in long-distance drives, because it takes twice as long to charge than an EVgo or Chargepoint station. Clearly, this is totally unacceptable when driving long distance, even though Chevy chargers are FREE to charge! If all charging stations were like this, it would turn say 90 minutes of charging during a day's driving to 3 hours of charging!

For 50 kW chargers with my Chevy Bolt EV, I obtain 72 miles per 30 minutes of charging right up to 80% charge. This number does not vary very much. the 90 miles number that you find in the manual is not reachable today, but hopefully will be reachable once higher power chargers are installed country-wide.

Finally, one must ask how long its going to be before we obtain higher-power chargers? It seems to me that it is going to happen in parallel with increased sales of long-distance EVs like the Bolt and Teslas. However, the incentive to go to increased power is not great yet, because the only people who use these chargers are long-distance drivers. It seems that most people buying Bolt EVs stay within driving range of home, where they normally charge, so most do not use CCS chargers. This means that the more people use their Bolt EVs for long-distance the more pressure there will be for EVgo and ChargePoint etc to supply higher power chargers. Certainly, I am very comfortable driving my Bolt EV over long-distances, but many are not. Not only that, but I only do half a dozen or so long distance trips in a year, so this in turn decreases the market pressure on these companies to upgrade their facilities.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
782 Posts
from the Tesla website:

https://www.tesla.com/supercharger

"Superchargers in Urban Areas
Tesla is installing Superchargers in urban areas where city dwellers and out of town visitors can easily charge. These stations are placed at convenient locations like grocery stores, downtown districts, and shopping centers so charging fits seamlessly into your life."

it's not just for long distance driving anymore!

pretty soon Tesla will have such an overwhelming advantage in terms of sheer number of stations that I think other manufactures will be forced to consider working with them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,387 Posts
"pretty soon Tesla will have such an overwhelming advantage in terms of sheer number of stations that I think other manufactures will be forced to consider working with them."

Can't happen too so for me. Elon! Take my money!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,557 Posts
from the Tesla website:

https://www.tesla.com/supercharger

"Superchargers in Urban Areas
Tesla is installing Superchargers in urban areas where city dwellers and out of town visitors can easily charge. These stations are placed at convenient locations like grocery stores, downtown districts, and shopping centers so charging fits seamlessly into your life."

it's not just for long distance driving anymore!

pretty soon Tesla will have such an overwhelming advantage in terms of sheer number of stations that I think other manufactures will be forced to consider working with them.
I tend to agree however the legacy auto companies are slow to accept the fact that EV's will overtake ICEV's as the "first choice" vehicle soon, at least here in America. Until they realize this, they will be kicking and screaming as they are dragged into the future. To many industries sucking on the fossil fuel teat. And the subsidies for fossil fuel remain as they consider pulling what few crumbs EV's get. I'm fairly certain that jealousy and ego have kept GM from joining in on the Supercharger network. It's well documented that Elon extended the offer 5 years ago and still no official takers. If GM had signed up with Tesla and built an EV capable of maximizing the superchargers potential, I would probably have bought one. Since I plan on reducing my stable down to one car, I'm forced to go with Tesla, for good or for bad.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
57 Posts
"The CCS standard is well established, so what is holding up the expansion of the infrastructure and following the example of Tesla?"

This is a capitalist country, with no central planning. We will get a CCS network if/when somebody thinks they can make money off it. To date, nobody has actually made money on anything EV related to my knowledge.
And, while Elon Musk is still losing money, he is willing to take the risk.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,387 Posts
I've been to a Sunoco, and an Exxon that had fast chargers. But those were installed by the station owner. This is entirely different.


Bring it on!
 
1 - 20 of 96 Posts
Top