Hey Guest, welcome to ChevyBolt.org. We encourage you to register to engage in conversations about your Bolt.

CCS infrastructure?

15095 Views 95 Replies 32 Participants Last post by Coastal_Cruiser, Feb 8, 2019

gparbst

Discussion Starter · Nov 9, 2017

The Tesla supercharge stations are all across the U.S. from sea to shining sea. Tesla has invested heavily in the DCFC infrastructure structure preparing for the model 3 release. They charge at 80KW and can add 200 miles in 30 minutes. The Bolt can also charge at 80 kilowatts but there are no CCS stations that will do this. And there are lots of 300+ mile gaps out in the Midwest making long distance trips impossible at the present.

The CCS standard is well established, so what is holding up the expansion of the infrastructure and following the example of Tesla?

81 - 96 of 96 Posts

bro1999

· #81 · Feb 4, 2019

wonderbolt said:
What a strange perspective you have on fellow forum members, that sounds like good business sense to me and potentially allows EA more competitive peak charging cost for customers, sounds like a great move

Yep, pretty bizarre indeed. I guess for a poster that has a "Tesla vs the world" mentality, it makes sense though.

I have no problem "tainting" my Bolt every time I hook it up to my Tesla UMC via JDapter Stub at home, or when I use the JDapter to plug into a Tesla destination charging station.

GregBrew

· #82 · Feb 4, 2019

Dyefrog said:
This is going to chap the ass of a number of people here but it looks like some Bolts will soon be contaminated with a little bit of Tesla.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/vws-electrify-america-buys-tesla-143000863.html

My ass isn't chapped at all. I recently acquired a Tesla (two, in fact) that are similar to the one's EA is going to use, albeit smaller. They're bolted to the outside of my garage, and hold 27kWh of energy. At times, my Bolt will be suckling at a Tesla.

Coastal_Cruiser

· #83 · Feb 5, 2019

max said:
I also have a Tesla Gen2 UMC & a TeslaTap.

Clever. So you plug the GEN 2 cable into the 14-50r and plug the Tesla end into the jdapter. And you have a solution that works the Bolt's onboard AC charger to its fullest. Correct?

So if one were to already own a teslatap, and were to get a good deal on a GEN 2 (or GEN 1) cable, that would be a cost effective solution compared to purchasing an EVSE such as a juicebox. Correct?

(I've only had my car for a month and just starting to noodle this. Having my first near death experience (range-wise) due to a broken fast charger at the target destination started me thinking about a Plan B.)

redpoint5

· #84 · Feb 5, 2019

This begins to address the huge problem I see with high-rate charging, which is the demand charge. Demand charges are like paying for internet. If you want the capability of a fast charge (high internet speed), you pay a monthly fee for the service, regardless of use.

The cost of electricity doesn't depend on just how much you're taking, but at what rate, and when.

Cataract2

· #85 · Feb 5, 2019

max said:
I have one - I also have a Tesla Gen2 UMC & a TeslaTap.
Last thing I want to do is be halfway to my destination in Iowa or SD and need a charge and NEMA 14-50 outlets at a campground or park or a Tesla destination charger is my only option.

I've opted to build my own portable UMC using the OpenEVSE controller. Going with a 40A max charge rate that can be scaled down to 8A on 120V. Managed to snag some Hubbel twist lock plugs rated for 50A to allow me to build various plugs for whatever I find.

Also have a Jdapter on order to handle the Tesla destination chargers if that's all the place has.

wonderbolt

· #86 · Feb 5, 2019

Coastal_Cruiser said:
Clever. So you plug the GEN 2 cable into the 14-50r and plug the Tesla end into the jdapter. And you have a solution that works the Bolt's onboard AC charger to its fullest. Correct?

So if one were to already own a teslatap, and were to get a good deal on a GEN 2 (or GEN 1) cable, that would be a cost effective solution compared to purchasing an EVSE such as a juicebox. Correct?

(I've only had my car for a month and just starting to noodle this. Having my first near death experience (range-wise) due to a broken fast charger at the target destination started me thinking about a Plan B.)

This thread is the best reference to get you thinking about ideal options if you have not yet read it or the 2017 edition
https://www.chevybolt.org/forum/82-...ion-charging-opinions-long-time-ev-owner.html

Reactions: 1

tomw

· #87 · Feb 5, 2019

That's a nice summary at the link wonderbolt. I built an OpenEVSE kit in 2013 and mounted it in my garage. I use it to charge my Bolt. I have 240VAC service (usually is around 242V - 243V) so the Bolt charges at its max rate. I charge my converted car using a NEMA 14-50 with 60A breaker. It has an EMW charger 12kW on board charger (but is limited to about 10kW with my lower voltage battery pack due to inductor current). I charged at RV parks for a few years before public EVSE started showing up in my area, and plan to buy another OpenEVSE to carry in the Bolt for that purpose since there is a dearth of charging infrastructure in my state outside a couple major cities. The kit form these days only requires assembly, no soldering, and is less than $400 for the 40A version plus a J1772 cable/connector. http://store.openevse.com

The Tesla UMC sounds like a great deal if it is still $328 with a J1772 cable/connector.

See less See more

Sean Nelson

· #88 · Feb 6, 2019

Coastal_Cruiser said:
So if one were to already own a teslatap, and were to get a good deal on a GEN 2 (or GEN 1) cable, that would be a cost effective solution compared to purchasing an EVSE such as a juicebox. Correct?

That's correct. But for me, the big plus about using the Tesla UMC is that it can automatically adapt to the different charge rates that can be supported by different plugs (120V, 240V/30A, 240V/50A). So I keep the Tesla UMC and Tesla Tap in my trunk in case I need to charge on the road from an AC plug somewhere, and use the stock EVSE for daily charging in my garage. It's too much hassle to move one charger back and forth to try to fill both roles.

Reactions: 2

Coastal_Cruiser

· #89 · Feb 7, 2019 (Edited)

Sean Nelson said:
But for me, the big plus about using the Tesla UMC is that it can automatically adapt to the different charge rates that can be supported by different plugs (120V, 240V/30A, 240V/50A).

Yes, that is a great feature. That is exactly why I am entertaining purchasing a GEN2 UMC. But I am not understanding how the different adapters can work for the Bolt. Can you explain please? Here's what I don't understand. I am assuming that the Bolt cannot interpret the data stream coming from the UMC (which per the maker of the TeslaTap is passed through the TeslaTap unchanged). If true, then when a lower amperage official Tesla adapter is connected to the UMC, say a NEMA 14-30, the Bolt has no way of knowing that the max current the onboard charger can pull is 24A. It would seem the Bolt would try and draw 32A, and pop the breaker (best case outcome).

What am I missing here?

Fivedoor

· #90 · Feb 7, 2019

Coastal_Cruiser said:
Yes, that is a great feature. That is exactly why I am entertaining purchasing a GEN2 UMC. But I am not understanding how the different adapters can work for the Bolt. Can you explain please? Here's what I don't understand. I am assuming that the Bolt cannot interpret the data stream coming from the UMC (which per the maker of the TeslaTap is passed through the TeslaTap unchanged). If true, then when a lower amperage official Tesla adapter is connected to the UMC, say a NEMA 14-30, the Bolt has no way of knowing that the max current the onboard charger can pull is 24A. It would seem the Bolt would try and draw 32A, and pop the breaker (best case outcome).

What am I missing here?

The car says "how much supply do you have" The EVSE says "240V 16 amps", the car says "OK, I will only draw 16 amps"

You can use any EVSE with a J1772 connector (or others like UMC with adapter) and the car will only draw what the EVSE says it has available, up to the maximum that the car can draw.

Keith

Reactions: 1

Coastal_Cruiser

· #91 · Feb 7, 2019 (Edited)

Fivedoor said:
The car says "how much supply do you have" The EVSE says "240V 16 amps", the car says "OK, I will only draw 16 amps"

You can use any EVSE with a J1772 connector (or others like UMC with adapter) and the car will only draw what the EVSE says it has available, up to the maximum that the car can draw.

Keith

I have been conversing with the creator of the TeslaTap regarding this question. Let me excerpt something he explained to me relative to this question:

"When you plug the Tesla Connector into the TeslaTap it makes the UMC think that there is a Tesla connected and the UMC starts transmitting at ~420 Mhz to what it thinks is a Tesla. After about 30 seconds the UMC stops transmitting at 420Mhz and sends out a normal J-1772 protocol signal that just passes through the TeslaTap to the car. The TeslaTap does nothing except convert the power connections from Tesla to J1772.(Straight Through connections)."

So, for the UMC to work with the Bolt for lower amperage circuits, it must be that when the UMC falls back to the J-1772 protocol, the J-1772 protocol stream has been informed which adapter has been connected to the UMC. That would be key, it seems. Is this something that is known to a certainty?

Or, from practical experience, has someone (like Sean?) successfully plugged into a lower amperage outlet such as a NEMA 10-30 with a UMC without popping a breaker or overheating anything (or ideally, read the current the car was drawing from the outlet).

Thank you.
jim

See less See more

cwerdna

· #92 · Feb 7, 2019 (Edited)

Tesla UMCs come with adapters and you can buy more (https://shop.tesla.com/us/en/product/vehicle-accessories/gen-1-nema-adapters.html and https://shop.tesla.com/us/en/product/vehicle-accessories/gen-2-nema-adapters.html). AFAIK, the something on the adapter tells the UMC the amperage of circuit it's on/max possible draw given that plug type (e.g. NEMA 14-50 allows for max 40 amp continuous load, NEMA 10-30 would allow for max 24 amp load, etc).

An EVSE (the UMC here) has a J1772 pilot signal (https://openev.freshdesk.com/support/solutions/articles/6000052074-basics-of-sae-j1772) the tells the connected vehicle the max it can draw. The car's OBC is supposed to comply and not go over that.

Woah. I just noticed the the topic title was "CCS infrastructure?"and we're talking about J1772, not CCS. Maybe this J1772, Open EVSE, TeslaTap, JDapter, etc. discussion should actually be carved out into another thread?

See less See more

Reactions: 1

Coastal_Cruiser

· #93 · Feb 7, 2019 (Edited)

cwerdna said:
Tesla UMCs come with adapters and you can buy more (https://shop.tesla.com/us/en/product/vehicle-accessories/gen-1-nema-adapters.html and https://shop.tesla.com/us/en/product/vehicle-accessories/gen-2-nema-adapters.html). AFAIK, the something on the adapter tells the UMC the amperage of circuit it's on/max possible draw given that plug type (e.g. NEMA 14-50 allows for max 40 amp continuous load, NEMA 10-30 would allow for max 24 amp load, etc).

An EVSE (the UMC here) has a J1772 pilot signal (https://openev.freshdesk.com/support/solutions/articles/6000052074-basics-of-sae-j1772) the tells the connected vehicle the max it can draw. The car's OBC is supposed to comply and not go over that.

All that is understood. Here's the thing though. The Tesla adapter uses a Tesla circuit board embedded in the adapter, and it speaks "Tesla" (GEN1 UMC only used a resistor). So for sure the UMC knows what adapter is connected. The tricky part is when the UMC falls back to the J-1772 protocol. Does the UMC pass the adapter type, or more specifically, the max current capable, i.e. the Duty Cycle) to the J-1772 protocol. If it does, I can see how the system would work for lower amperage outlets. If it doesn't I am puzzled as to how the Bolt knows what charge rate to use.

(apologies for extending the off-topic topic. Happy to continue in a more appropriate thread or start a new one. I'm assuming my question has been asked and answered many time over. Just not seeing that info.)

cwerdna

· #94 · Feb 7, 2019 (Edited)

Coastal_Cruiser said:
The tricky part is when the UMC falls back to the J-1772 protocol. Does the UMC pass the adapter type to the J-1772 protocol. If it does, I can see how the system would work for lower amperage outlets. If it doesn't I am puzzled as to how the Bolt knows what charge rate to use.

I'm guessing that the UMC emits a J1772 pilot signal duty cycle appropriate for the attached adapter. How else would it do it w/o forcing the user to select via a switch, dial or some other UI?

If it didn't, how else would the connected car know what it could draw up to?

When Jesla (gen 1 Tesla UMC w/Tesla connector cut off and replaced w/J1772 handle) was in its early days, there were posts on the subject over at http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=15987#p15987. TonyWilliams is the guy from San Diego behind Quick Charge Power.

There might be a bit of useful info from Tony starting from http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7684#p7684 and a bit before it. I haven't had time to re-read that entire thread.

Reactions: 1

Sean Nelson

· #95 · Feb 8, 2019

cwerdna said:
I'm guessing that the UMC emits a J1772 pilot signal duty cycle appropriate for the attached adapter.

Exactly. When I plug the UMC in using a 240V/30A AC cord, it tells the car "24A is available" via the J1772 pilot signal. When I plug it in using a 240V/50A AC cord, it tells the car "32A is available". The UMC detects the type of pigtail that's being used to supply AC power and it advertises the level of current that's appropriate, obeying the "don't exceed 80% of rated circuit capacity" rule that applies to continuous loads.

Reactions: 3

Coastal_Cruiser

· #96 · Feb 8, 2019

This makes sense now. The UMC clearly must be setting the duty cycle it learned from the adapter using the Tesla propriety protocol when it engages the J-1772 protocol.

Nice that Tesla made the UMC bi-lingual. Kind of like that CP30 speaks Bocce as well as English (except thankfully there are not 6 million forms of charging protocols out there)

Thanx for the input.

81 - 96 of 96 Posts

This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.