[twriter]

Now that I've had my Bolt for a few months, and have charged it mostly at work (35 cents/kWh), it's time to start figuring out how to get charging at home.


I rent a condo in San Francisco. One of my goals is to have zero, or as close to it, work/effort/involvement by my unit's owner. I have had near-zero interaction with them since I moved in 6 years ago and I'd like to keep it that way, lest they decide a (huge) rent increase is in order. I also would like to minimize any work by the HOA, as well as any costs to them. I currently have a daily 20-mile (each way) commute.



Up until recently, my electric provider was PG&E, but is not Clean Power SF (https://www.cleanpowersf.org/), which, as I understand it, gets more of its power from cleaner sources, but uses PG&E's infrastructure for transmission (for which I pay a hefty monthly fee, making any "savings" non-existent.


The complex is 5 buildings, with parking under each and a concrete slab upon which the commercial and living units are built. Parking spaces are assigned to individual units as part of deeds. I've spotted no electrical outlets adjacent to any spaces, although there are some inside the security doors to elevators. Lighting is all overhead fluorescent, and there are electrical conduits running above all over the garage spaces. Pretty much nothing on the walls though.


The parking space assigned to my unit is in the building adjacent to my unit.


I'm thinking that any charger I'd get would have to be attached to a vertical concrete surface.


So I have several questions, and there are probably more questions that I don't know (yet) to ask.

• What companies make the most economical/reliable chargers for such a situation?
• Are there any local programs at any level that offer any sort of financial aid/stimulus for EV charger installation, and what's the best way to reach out to them?
• What is the likely amount of installation work that will be necessary, who would do that work, and what might the estimated cost be?
• Will I need permits?
• Should I look in to changing my rate plan once I get a charger installed?
• Are there options that I'm not thinking of?

I want to get all my ducks in a row with as much information that I can gather before approaching the HOA.



I know SharePoint has a program for apartments and condos, but their literature states that there's an added monthly fee for users, and when I contacted them, they did not say how much that fee is.


Right now the base rate for electricity at home is about 22 cents/kWh.

 

[desiv]

Quick thoughts:
Obviously you know this one, but make sure it is OK with your Condo people.
I've seen some horror stories (I'm sure rare) with HOAs and Condo type situations and trying to get EV charging.
So:
-What companies make the most economical/reliable chargers for such a situation?
I'd start with Clipper Creek. Only heard good things about them.
-Are there any local programs at any level that offer any sort of financial aid/stimulus for EV charger installation, and what's the best way to reach out to them?
Sorry, not sure.
-What is the likely amount of installation work that will be necessary, who would do that work, and what might the estimated cost be?
That all depends on the run length. At the bottom end, probably a couple of hundred bucks for the plug run, but that can go into the thousands depending on run length and panel situation.
-Will I need permits?
I think you would need an electrician. No idea if a permit would be required by you. Would probably depend on whether or not there is easy conduit access all the way thru??
-Should I look in to changing my rate plan once I get a charger installed?
Possibly, especially if you have time of day charges.
-Are there options that I'm not thinking of?
Do you need a 240v EVSE? If you are doing 20 miles a day, you might be able to just get a 120v outdoor plug installed and use the EVSE that came with the car (or another one; Clipper Creek and others sell mountable 120v units). If you are driving 40 miles a day, you should be able to get by with that. Think of it as about 4 miles per hour. In 10 hours, you are full again.
Might be much easier to get a standard outlet installed?

 

[hatchy]

20 miles each way daily.. you can get by on 110v with the chevy charger.. Just need a plain old 110v outlet.

 

[redpoint5]

I'm impressed you've got an EV despite not having the ability to charge at home. Brave move.

I'd probably not bother considering the relatively small savings to be had, especially if you're not going to own the infrastructure when it's time to leave.

Now if you could convince the HOA to install it at their expense, that would be another thing. The cost is probably substantial since you can't tap into the lighting. New circuit, new conduit, new electrical lines, some way to meter it on your meter.

I've thought about constructing a portable battery that plugs into a standard outlet before. My thinking was that I could charge up at work with the 3 kWh it took to complete my roundtrip, then plug my car into that battery and an inverter. I wasn't about to go through that hassle for that little savings though, and it's still theft of about 12 cents in electricity from my employer.

 

[Packard V8]

Yes, just use 115-volt and an extension cord.

Just recently, I was at a friend's condo. They were having an outdoor pot luck and the grill was a 115-volt electric unit powered by a 50-foot extension cord.

Just to stir the pot, do you have a dryer outlet in your unit and how far in feet is it from your dryer outlet to your parking spot?

jack vines

 

[redpoint5]

Yes, just use 115-volt and an extension cord.

Just recently, I was at a friend's condo. They were having an outdoor pot luck and the grill was a 115-volt electric unit powered by a 50-foot extension cord.

Just to stir the pot, do you have a dryer outlet in your unit and how far in feet is it from your dryer outlet to your parking spot?

jack vines

The parking space assigned to my unit is in the building adjacent to my unit.

I interpreted this to mean there's no chance of running an extension cord to any circuit on his meter. If the garage is under a different building, then it would also be on a different circuit.

Some photos would help, but my imagination isn't seeing a good solution.

 

[hatchy]

Yup not seeing a good solution for even a 8amp 110v feed in this type of situation. Which is really all you would need. Would be nice to just run a kill a watt meter off a 110 feed @ agreed upon rate with the landlord, but landlords don't tend to go for stuff like that I wouldn't imagine. Maybe a lock box around the meter would help put the owners mind at ease about getting cheated. Sure would be nice to use an off the shelf meter and existing wiring to keep costs reasonable. Even if you volunteer to diy monthly meter checks and keep all the hassle on your end.. not seeing an incentive for them going for it.


Doesn't sound like your rate is that hot anyway.. 22 cents. I'd just charge at the local mall or grocery store.

 

[psyflyjohn]

I would informally poll the other tenets about establishing an electrical line to see if they are interested in owning an electric car also, if a line was available. Not sure about what the feeling is. If it seems negative, I would find a commercial charging station (Level 3) near where you live or on the way to work. You can stop there to recharge periodically.

SDGE in San Diego is giving each electric car owner a $500 credit on their electrical bill, which you can consider as an off-set for commercial charging costs. Actually it's a State thing, so your electrical company may have the incentive also.

Another option would be State or city laws about condo owners having a right to plug-in. But It seems that you want to avoid confrontations and conflict if possible. (I don't blame you)

Finally, consider your work site. Check for outlets around the parking areas and informally inquire if some other workers would like the opportunity to plug-in also. See if you can get a group together to approach management about electrical accommodations. Some management folks may want to plug-in also.

Best of luck, and let us know the outcome, please...

 

[Pike Bishop]

Some observations and some questions. Disclaimer--I rent property in California.


Is this worth it?


Your drive is 40 miles a day or about 14,600 miles a year. At 3.8 mi/kWh on a bolt in moderately temperate San Francisco you will need about 3,900 kWh/year. How far are you willing to go to save 17 cents/kWh (the difference between the work rate and your raw 22 cent/kWh at your rental). At best, you will save $657 a year, less any capital cost for installation and chargers. (I agree with my colleagues. A Clipper Creek is pretty much bomb proof. Most of our municipalities in Maine install these as public chargers. Snow, hail, and nervous Leaf owners cannot do the chargers in...)


How are you presenting a motion to the HOA?


The Davis-Stirling Act (The common interest development act) that governs condos in California notes that HOA are responsible for common areas to owners. Are you authorized to speak as an owner, or is the intent to make the charger(s) a common area amenity? (both are possible) Or will the install at your expense change the look of the common area?



California is a very good state for financing and support of business and residential chargers. See: https://www.driveclean.ca.gov/pev/Incentives.php?submit=submit&bev=1 Getting financing or support either requires you to be an owner or convince an HOA to invest money for chargers in the common areas, subject to keeping HOA fee changes under 5% year to year.


Not being an owner seems to give you several courses of action

• Convince the HOA to permit the installation at your expense on a property you do not own(?). Tesla has a good HOA letter template you may look up. However, you are not the owner and cannot obtain financing or support. You eventually have to talk to the owner.
• Convince the HOA to install these as part of the common area. It's possible if the residents agree and the net HOA fees do not increase more than 5% year to year. However, your owner will see the increases and may want to be informed. You eventually have to talk to the owner.
• Do it yourself with modifications to your rental property. Unless you talk with the owner first, you will talk to the owner later under some very unfriendly terms.
• Do it yourself with removable modifications. Example--a 120V extension cord or using a 240 V relay switch to tap into a water heater, stove, or other electric appliance (if available).

It seems that in being a renter, you have limited options for financial support unless your owner/landlord buys into the idea, which is a good idea after all.



I am a property owner and landlord. I am also a business person and want to hear ideas that make my property more desirable. I lose 10%-15% of annual rent whenever I have to re-rent a unit (cleaning, real-estate fees, and advertising) so I do not automatically think of kicking someone out if they contact me. If you are a good tenant I should be able to come to an agreement with you on improvements.

 

[GregBrew]

Now that I've had my Bolt for a few months, and have charged it mostly at work (35 cents/kWh), it's time to start figuring out how to get charging at home.


I rent a condo in San Francisco. One of my goals is to have zero, or as close to it, work/effort/involvement by my unit's owner. I have had near-zero interaction with them since I moved in 6 years ago and I'd like to keep it that way, lest they decide a (huge) rent increase is in order. I also would like to minimize any work by the HOA, as well as any costs to them. I currently have a daily 20-mile (each way) commute.



Up until recently, my electric provider was PG&E, but is not Clean Power SF (https://www.cleanpowersf.org/), which, as I understand it, gets more of its power from cleaner sources, but uses PG&E's infrastructure for transmission (for which I pay a hefty monthly fee, making any "savings" non-existent.


The complex is 5 buildings, with parking under each and a concrete slab upon which the commercial and living units are built. Parking spaces are assigned to individual units as part of deeds. I've spotted no electrical outlets adjacent to any spaces, although there are some inside the security doors to elevators. Lighting is all overhead fluorescent, and there are electrical conduits running above all over the garage spaces. Pretty much nothing on the walls though.


The parking space assigned to my unit is in the building adjacent to my unit.


I'm thinking that any charger I'd get would have to be attached to a vertical concrete surface.


So I have several questions, and there are probably more questions that I don't know (yet) to ask.

• What companies make the most economical/reliable chargers for such a situation?
• Are there any local programs at any level that offer any sort of financial aid/stimulus for EV charger installation, and what's the best way to reach out to them?
• What is the likely amount of installation work that will be necessary, who would do that work, and what might the estimated cost be?
• Will I need permits?
• Should I look in to changing my rate plan once I get a charger installed?
• Are there options that I'm not thinking of?

I want to get all my ducks in a row with as much information that I can gather before approaching the HOA.



I know SharePoint has a program for apartments and condos, but their literature states that there's an added monthly fee for users, and when I contacted them, they did not say how much that fee is.


Right now the base rate for electricity at home is about 22 cents/kWh.

One issue is going to be your ability to get anything you install in the parking garage associated with *your* electricity usage. The existing conduits and other power runs could belong to anybody, but I expect that they're part of the HOA overhead to power the lights etc. in the parking area. Your best bet may be to approach the HOA board for a simple 120V 20A circuit. With your short commute, that may be all you need, and would be relatively cheap to install and meter. Over night (12 hr) at 12A and 120V should get you around 70 miles of range per day, and cost about four bucks.

 

[psyflyjohn]

He's a renter from a condo owner - a very delicate relationship. Especially if he wants to approach the HOA. Keep that in mind with your recommendations. I was a condo owner, and wouldn't want my tenet to approach the HOA directly. Very dicey....

 

[hatchy]

Putting on the shoes of the condo owner. Why should I have to buy that expensive box that doesn't have the correct plugger for every EV now and future? And have it down there in the garage where it can be stolen or vandalized.

Also just imagine I say YES ok I'll make some kind of deal with you and do this. Then 6 other folks see it and ask for the same deal.. all of a sudden I'm looking at a garage wide wiring upgrade. Yea you come at me asking for a metered 240 40a with a fancy wall mount box ( any future possibility of reaching maybe 2 or 3 stalls btw) and I'm gonna have to shoot that down in about 2 seconds flat. A single inexpensive ten amp 110v outlet off of existing wiring... not seeing the incentive for myself even on that.

 

[twriter]

One issue is going to be your ability to get anything you install in the parking garage associated with *your* electricity usage. The existing conduits and other power runs could belong to anybody, but I expect that they're part of the HOA overhead to power the lights etc. in the parking area. Your best bet may be to approach the HOA board for a simple 120V 20A circuit. With your short commute, that may be all you need, and would be relatively cheap to install and meter. Over night (12 hr) at 12A and 120V should get you around 70 miles of range per day, and cost about four bucks.

I'm pretty sure all the conduits I see running across the ceiling of the common garage (and to the lights, the garage door operners, etc.) are all part of the HOA overhead. And I suspect your idea about a "simple" 120V 20A curcuit would almost certainly be both least difficult and least expensive. I'm guessing the metering part is something that the power company knows exactly what it'd be doing with, but I think my question is: How could I ensure that only I am the one using it?

 

[twriter]

He's a renter from a condo owner - a very delicate relationship. Especially if he wants to approach the HOA. Keep that in mind with your recommendations. I was a condo owner, and wouldn't want my tenet to approach the HOA directly. Very dicey....

I've actually been involved in some HOA committees, such as a recent one to help decide on software to have an HOA website to facilitate communication and other HOA needs. As a renter, I don't have official voting rights in the decisions, but I can contribute my time and expertise as a part of the community.

 

[twriter]

Putting on the shoes of the condo owner. Why should I have to buy that expensive box that doesn't have the correct plugger for every EV now and future? And have it down there in the garage where it can be stolen or vandalized.

Also just imagine I say YES ok I'll make some kind of deal with you and do this. Then 6 other folks see it and ask for the same deal.. all of a sudden I'm looking at a garage wide wiring upgrade. Yea you come at me asking for a metered 240 40a with a fancy wall mount box ( any future possibility of reaching maybe 2 or 3 stalls btw) and I'm gonna have to shoot that down in about 2 seconds flat. A single inexpensive ten amp 110v outlet off of existing wiring... not seeing the incentive for myself even on that.

My expectation is that I would cover the costs, and any improvements I'd leave behind when the eventual day comes that I move out.

 

[GregBrew]

My expectation is that I would cover the costs, and any improvements I'd leave behind when the eventual day comes that I move out.

Put in an L2 EVSE with a plug. Upon moving, take the L2 EVSE, and leave the plug. If it's a direct-wired EVSE, you'd probably be obligated to leave it there. Securing a plug-in EVSE could be an issue, though. Internally accessed security screws, perhaps?

 

[redpoint5]

I barely complete some of the projects in the property I own; I can hardly see myself investing and following through on a project I will ultimately not own.

A new meter would need to be run, which means another monthly charge for simply being connected to the grid. No idea what it would cost to run new service, but I doubt it's cheap.

 

[twriter]

Put in an L2 EVSE with a plug. Upon moving, take the L2 EVSE, and leave the plug. If it's a direct-wired EVSE, you'd probably be obligated to leave it there. Securing a plug-in EVSE could be an issue, though. Internally accessed security screws, perhaps?

So something such as what's described here? https://www.plugincars.com/quick-guide-buying-your-first-home-ev-charger-126875.html


"If it’s possible, don’t permanently install your EVSE. In other words, have an electrician install a NEMA 14-50 outlet or something similar (types of outlets used for things like clothes dryers). Then put a matching plug on a pigtail mounted to your EVSE. You can then mount your EVSE right next to the outlet, and simply plug it in. If the time comes when you move or decide to relocate your EVSE, simply unplug it—and plug it back into another NEMA 14-50 outlet."

 

[hatchy]

I paid $1000 for a long run 14-50 install.. I guess it comes down to how long you plan on living there. $1000 buys a lot of overpriced electrons.

The other part of it is the rate.. if it were 12 cents rather than 22 it would be a quicker pay off.

Paying the 35 cent at work you're basically paying for the same thing, just paying slowly. I'd probably do the work charger or supermarket chargers unless I was sure to live there 3 years or more. Not an easy choice..

 

[Curt]

Maybe a long-shot, but if it's a pretty large HOA, maybe the renter and owner could team up to ask the HOA to host a ChargePoint station somewhere on the property. http://chargenow.chargepoint.com/request