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A long time ago California figured out that they could neglect roads all they want and the voters will pass bond initiatives to pay for fixing some roads. Then they neglect other roads so they can ask for more bonds to fix those roads. Rinse and repeat. They do the same with school funding.
I have a theory about highway construction projects in CO. I call it the Whack-A-Mole Theory.

Billions of dollars are secured for a solution to a bottleneck on our highways, and each of these billion dollar projects results in a new bottleneck which requires billions more to fix. The bottlenecks are obvious enough that people are willing to open their wallets with votes to pay additional sales and property taxes to whack the next mole.

IDK, but the cynic in me concludes governments like problems, it gives them fodder for campaign promises and reasons to raise more taxes without appearing too obvious.
 

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.... who are you people hanging out with that are such EV haters? I haven't had a single person give me a hard time about buying an EV. Most are actually quite inquisitive and interested. And most of my friends are conservatives. Different circles I guess....
I can tell that your conservative friends are the rare ones that don't tune in nightly for
Faux Gnews propaganda.
Tell me Faux is not THE major source for EV disinformation... :mad:

It seems to me their mission statement is to Divide this Country.

There are many examples, but off topic.....
 

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I have a theory about highway construction projects in CO. I call it the Whack-A-Mole Theory.

Billions of dollars are secured for a solution to a bottleneck on our highways, and each of these billion dollar projects results in a new bottleneck which requires billions more to fix. The bottlenecks are obvious enough that people are willing to open their wallets with votes to pay additional sales and property taxes to whack the next mole.

IDK, but the cynic in me concludes governments like problems, it gives them fodder for campaign promises and reasons to raise more taxes without appearing too obvious.
How very rude of you to assume such things. Just because governments create the problems doesn't mean they LIKE them too. You're outta line sir! :p
I can tell that your conservative friends are the rare ones that don't tune in nightly for
Faux Gnews propaganda.
Tell me Faux is not THE major source for EV disinformation... :mad:

It seems to me their mission statement is to Divide this Country.

There are many examples, but off topic.....
That seems to be the mission statement of all MSM outlets, whether left or right...
 

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Tell me Faux is not THE major source for EV disinformation...
I've seen some doozies on Fox, but also some stuff on CNN that glosses over real issues. And with Musk showing some weird conservative viewpoints, there's actually been some positive stuff there too. Most of the egregious FUD seems to come from really far-right stuff or the traditional auto industry stuff, like Voldar's favorite, MotorBiscuit. ;)
 

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I didn't follow that at all, so please help me understand what you're saying.
I was saying that right now, everyone pays for what he uses. Poor or rich, they all pay the same amount of road taxes (from the gas price) if they drive the same type of car. At least this is how I see it.
 

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Sure, it makes economic sense, but does it make ENVIRONMENTAL sense?
I regard those as separate issues to be addressed (paying for infrastructure and disincentivizing pollution).

I'm not saying fossil fuels should not be taxed by the gallon, I'm just saying necessary infrastructure shouldn't be reliant on that tax revenue. Throw that tax revenue into the general fund and then spend that money based on priority.

As I'm constantly saying, IF it's important to curb fossil fuel consumption, then progressively raising taxation on it is the most reasonable way to accomplish the goal of reduction with the smallest footprint for corruption.
 

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I'm not saying fossil fuels should not be taxed by the gallon, I'm just saying necessary infrastructure shouldn't be reliant on that tax revenue. Throw that tax revenue into the general fund and then spend that money based on priority.
Problem is, roads and bridges cost a fortune. One km of road here, in Canada, is about 2M CAD. If you are talking about a highway, it can go up to 6M CAD. I am not even going in the refaction works of a bridge or a new bridge to replace the old 100 years old one. And the states proved they can't handle the costs to maintain to a proper condition all of them. Then the only easy way to get the funds are from taxation of what all people use the most. Right now it is the fuel. Maybe in 20 years from now it will be the electricity. Or the air we breathe.
 

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Problem is, roads and bridges cost a fortune. One km of road here, in Canada, is about 2M CAD. If you are talking about a highway, it can go up to 6M CAD. I am not even going in the refaction works of a bridge or a new bridge to replace the old 100 years old one. And the states proved they can't handle the costs to maintain to a proper condition all of them. Then the only easy way to get the funds are from taxation of what all people use the most. Right now it is the fuel. Maybe in 20 years from now it will be the electricity. Or the air we breathe.
I'll show 'em. I'll stop breathing! :cool:
 

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I am going to assume that he knows what words mean. He may have been exaggerating a bit, but he did say,
Sorry for the confusion. I did mean gas bought , but was definitely a bit of exaggeration. But I do drive less than 3k a year .
 
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Listening to friends, family, and politicians talk about how expensive and terrible EVs are is irritating - especially while multiple countries are setting daily heat records. I wanted something relevant to show them to try (and likely fail) to convivence them that EVs make financial sense. In short, this is the cost comparison between the best selling small SUV and a Bolt EUV. This doesn't include the costs for oil changes.

View attachment 44711


Can you be direct and ask them to quit criticizing your choice?
 

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I am in Southern California and my residential electric cost is $.49 per kilowatt hour. So it’s a factor of five for the fuel costs. Still I like EV‘s for the simplicity, reliability, no need to warm up the engine, no smog checks etc. Looking forward to a 2023 EUV.
 

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I too get frustrated when reading comments about EV’s being so bad - and basically parroting long-ago debunked myths created by big oil. Recently it has turned political. People get pretty agrressive on the hate and vitriol to the point of being cringe. I tell everyone that they are NOT for everyone’s circumstance or situation and to each his/her own. I try to explain differences with pros and cons between ICE and EV but in short, get called a commie liberal douche cuz: petrol is king, landfills filled with batteries, child labor in wherever, grid cant handle it, electric still comes from coal, etc. ad nauseum. I gave up with some of these closed minded knuckle-draggers.

I had a good fact sheet with references and information but deleted it since it doesn’t matter. One point I figured is the amount of electricity it takes at the pump to fill a 12 gallon tank vs electricity required to top up a Bolt… then looking at the bigger picture beyond that with tanker trucks, etc.
 

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Listening to friends, family, and politicians talk about how expensive and terrible EVs are is irritating - especially while multiple countries are setting daily heat records. I wanted something relevant to show them to try (and likely fail) to convivence them that EVs make financial sense. In short, this is the cost comparison between the best selling small SUV and a Bolt EUV. This doesn't include the costs for oil changes. Apples to apples.

View attachment 44711


Math check: Your math takes the RAV4 tank to empty, but not the EUV. At $0.11/kwh and a 65kwh tank, it would cost $0.11 × 65 = $7.15 to fill the EUV, not $6.89. Subsequent calc of annual fuel cost increases to $436 (from $418), and total 8 year cost becomes $3489. Still saves vs. RAV4, though. Apples to apples.
 

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As I'm often saying, the math is good but not the assumptions.

*The price of regular gasoline since 2017 has averaged $3.22/gal in my relatively expensive state of Oregon. That trend holds true even back a decade. The $4.50 estimate is at least a dollar higher than reasonable.

*The average EV is driven 7,000 miles per year while the average ICE 10,200 miles.

*The average cost of electricity in the US is $0.1477 / kWh

Finally, we'll always have the "apples / oranges" problem to contend with. How much is having a tow rating worth? How much is differing interior volumes worth? How important is an AWD option? How much is rapid refueling worth? How much is starting out full every day from the garage worth?

All this leaves out the #1 cost of ownership for most people, and that is depreciation. Who knows how much value will be retained 5 years from now? Typically, EVs have depreciated more rapidly than ICE with the exception of Tesla. We would need to make big assumptions about this to estimate future cost.

The vehicle total cost of ownership spreadsheet I have linked in my signature is a way better tool for doing cost analysis because it attempts to factor in as many variables as possible.
The value of towing, range, interior room are all valid variables. Ironically, they are often given outsized weight by EV naysayers. Being subjective, it is hard to dispute except that things like towing are usually a once or twice a year thing for a small number of people.
Kind of like arguing for buying a vacation home when your vacation is only two weeks long each year.
 

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Discussion Starter · #77 ·
Math check: Your math takes the RAV4 tank to empty, but not the EUV. At $0.11/kwh and a 65kwh tank, it would cost $0.11 × 65 = $7.15 to fill the EUV, not $6.89. Subsequent calc of annual fuel cost increases to $436 (from $418), and total 8 year cost becomes $3489. Still saves vs. RAV4, though. Apples to apples.
Looks like rounding errors in excel. Thanks
 

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Well I bought a Bolt for the $$ savings compared to gasoline. I was driving a 2011 Honda CRV Econ version before the bolt. Was costing me $80 every 4 days for my work commute. Bolt costs like 100$ a month Max. That’s the bottom line for me.
Now I would like to produce as little pollution as possible in all aspects of my life.
I live in Illinois where about 70% of our power is generated from Nuclear or so I hear. That makes my car generate significantly less pollution than a gas car.
I won’t bother to recite the details here but in many areas of the country the pollution generated to produce the electricity for a car isn’t much less than a modern car the size of a Bolt would generate.
So for me the priority’s are;
1) cost of ownership
2) less pollution
3) Electric cars way more fun to drive than ICE car’s.

it is clear to me that the best way to go is Nuclear power - yes it has the Nuclear waste problem. However everything generates some type of waste by product. It’s just about the lesser of the evils.
You just have to follow the stock price of various energy producing companies to see what’s really happening. —— Coal stocks are leading the energy market higher right now and have been for a year and we don’t get coal from Russia. Nuclear consulting companies are attracting significant institutional investment. Plain old oil and gas and the refineries and pipelines are up but not like coal.
Some is metallurgical coal to make steel but plenty is for electricity generation. Especially if you look at it regionally.
Since the Russian attack started we have to secure energy sources in North America period. Right now it has to be Oil and Gas. Next we have generate clean energy for electric cars and we can secure Uranium in Canada. Lithium as well eventually. The problem is the rare metals for magnets. Don’t know where that supply is gonna come from if China goes into Taiwan.
My assumption is that China will eventually go into Taiwan. If they do none of this will matter, we will be worried about our children being killed at war.
 

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Just to put things in perspective, yes electric cars use electricity (!) but these are not the only things that use electricity in our households...
I have an Emporia Energy whole house power monitor at home (in Quebec, Canada where winters are cold!).

Here is an abbreviated rundown for year 2021 (to get a full 12 months of 4 seasons) by kWh/% of total:
Total: 26373kWh/100%
Heatpump: 3660kWh/14%
Inground pool pump: 3462kWh/13%
Computers & servers: 3279kWh/12%
Furnace: 2995kWh/11%
EVSE: 2708kWh/10%
Water heater: 2253kWh/9%
Garage baseboard heater: 736kWh/3%
Fridges & freezer: 696kWh/3%
Clothes dryer: 501kWh/2%
Oven: 191kWh/1%
...
Rest of the house: 3000kWh/11%

So, the 16000km (10000mi) I drive in my car yearly is only the fifth biggest electricity expense (2/3 of the pool pump used 6 months). So, saying that putting electricity in our cars is such a bad thing is a little hypocritical. What about all the rest?? If I didn't have an EV, I'd still be using 90% of what I use now.
 

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Looks like rounding errors in excel. Thanks
I would add the cost of oil changes to the RAV which are not present on the bolt min 3x per year at 5000mile intervals = that's another $150...$300 per year for the RAV not that big but there. plus not everyone has 11cent electricity . I think the US average is 15 cent/ kWh but some states are way higher. At the end of the day the utility add raiser cost and transmission cost . In my location the total cost is 12cent per kwh so i am lucky but in california people probably pay more than 25...30 cents.
 
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