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Discussion Starter #41
I'm getting a Model Y.

The issues tend to be with fit and finish. If there are problems in those areas I can refuse delivery until they are fixed.

Also, Elon did not say they have poor quality today. He said the best time to buy a car is either at the very beginning of the production run or when production is ramped up. And that's true for any car. Production is now ramped up on the Y and they seem to have the kinks worked out. He said they figured out the paint problem was that they needed an extra 2 minutes to dry.

I'm getting the Model Y because of range, charging speed, and comfort on road trips. 326 miles of range and a charging speed of up to 250 kW sounds really nice.

I've taken plenty of long trips in the Bolt and we've had a lot of fun. But it does get a little difficult when you need to make more than one stop.

Plus, I'm anxious to try out Full Self Driving. I don't care that it costs $10,000. I think it will be worth it.
I don't disagree with your statements other then the definition of quality. I don't think you will see too many car manufacturers that don't figure out they need to let the paint dry longer prior to launch. The price of being ahead of the competition is poor quality due to going to fast to manufacturing.
 

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Is anyone considering your timeline with the purchase? It looks like the GREEN Act might have a shot at going through, which would make both GM and Tesla eligible for the tax credit again.

I'm a little concerned about having to make another purchase immediately rather than being able to wait till then. Been looking around for a good short-term stop-gap (definitely need a car), so I can hold off on a replacement purchase if the buyback goes through soon.
 

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Is anyone considering your timeline with the purchase? It looks like the GREEN Act might have a shot at going through
Yes, we're test-driving a Y on Wednesday. If the GREEN Act of 2021 passes, it's possible that Tesla may rearrange its features again (if I recall, when the tax credit expired, they lowered price $3k and threw-in EAP, or something else, to soften the blow). If we like it enough, we might try to buy one the day after it passes.

However, it's possible that GM/Tesla buyers don't need to wait: the GREEN Act doesn't appear to say that the tax credit will go into affect after it passes. Rather, it says that on the day it passes, the count of cars sold before the 600k phase-out will start counting up from 200,000.

One person on Reddit was saying that tax credits are generally for an entire calendar year. For example, when the EVSE installation tax credit was extended mid-year, it became a tax credit for the entire tax year. I don't know enough examples to know if there have been other tax credits in the past which only apply to a date range.

I think I may complain to our senators that the confusion over the start-date of the extended credit is hurting sales of the very vehicles the credit is supposed to support.
 

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No buybacks for Canadian Bolt owners, had a very unfriendly conversation with GM Canada Bolt concierge who informed me GM is again working night and day on this and to effectively shut up and wait.
 

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I'm feeling quite lucky after reading all these responses
I think you are going to be one of the best case scenarios. The lemon laws in KS are terrible. I won't quote them here, you can do a search if you are interested. So GM will have no interest in doing much for people like me.

So I'm going to have to wait and see what the overall solution is and what they offer. If it isn't very good, I'll just have to live with it as there's not much I can do.
 

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I had a follow up call with Chevy to try and get some more info; I wanted to know the criteria for any action beyond “wait” and “how long is it reasonable to ask owners to wait before other options (e.g., battery replacement, buyback, or trade up) are on the table.” No answers at this level, and they promised a call back from a manager.

Their response did imply that the local dealer has some influence in the options, which is disappointing, as I think this creates potential for a 3-way battle between GM, owners, and dealers in order to not get hosed.

After 10 days of below zero here in MN, I need all the capacity available, and am pretty frustrated being told to just wait.
 

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We really don't know much about the new Ultium cells, but they really are the first cells designed by an automaker with vehicular use in mind. Everything else are off the shelf formats that are repackaged for automotive use. Even Tesla's 4680 (which might or might not be available by that time in the Model Y) is still a case of trying to fit a round (cylindrical) peg into a square (cuboid) hole.
It will be interesting to see how Ultium vs. 4680 turns out.

The 4680's appear to be cheaper to produce.
Tesla's idea of having a battery pack that is part of the car's structure probably means that the 4680's aren't servicable.
By contrast, Ultium is servicable to the extreme.

It's two opposite philosophies.
 

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Yes, we're test-driving a Y on Wednesday. If the GREEN Act of 2021 passes, it's possible that Tesla may rearrange its features again (if I recall, when the tax credit expired, they lowered price $3k and threw-in EAP, or something else, to soften the blow). If we like it enough, we might try to buy one the day after it passes.

However, it's possible that GM/Tesla buyers don't need to wait: the GREEN Act doesn't appear to say that the tax credit will go into affect after it passes. Rather, it says that on the day it passes, the count of cars sold before the 600k phase-out will start counting up from 200,000.

One person on Reddit was saying that tax credits are generally for an entire calendar year. For example, when the EVSE installation tax credit was extended mid-year, it became a tax credit for the entire tax year. I don't know enough examples to know if there have been other tax credits in the past which only apply to a date range.

I think I may complain to our senators that the confusion over the start-date of the extended credit is hurting sales of the very vehicles the credit is supposed to support.
I'm also waiting on the GREEN act before I buy my Model Y. As I understand the language today, you won't get the credit unless you wait until the law goes into effect. However, I think you are right that usually these things apply to the tax year of passage. So the language will probably change, but I'm not taking a chance.

I'm afraid that EV sales for Tesla and GM are going to be very low this quarter because everyone is waiting to see what happens.
 

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I agree. But I don't think they will release it until they can prove that FSD is safer than a human driver.
That would make logical sense but people do not make logical sense. If autonomous cars kill one person for every 10 that human drivers kill it will not be considered safe enough by the masses. They have to be hundreds, if not thousands, of times safer than human drivers in order to gain acceptance. And they will be... eventually.
 

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Wow. I just opened my mail and got the following letter from my dealership. I'm wondering what is really behind this letter:

I've got great news! I reviewed your file and I'd like to make an offer to purchase your Chevrolet Bolt. During this event, I'm willing to give you more money than I usually would for it and I'd be happy to purchase your vehicle from you even if you don't buy one from me.

Our pre-owned inventory is severely understocked and I refuse to source our vehicles from the auction. As you can imagine, this has caused the value of your vehicle to skyrocket and I'm absolutely willing to pay more for clean vehicles like yours (cash or trade).

Simply put, this is exactly what I'm planning to do for you:

  • Give you as much as I possibly can for your vehicle
  • Defer your car payment for up to 3 months
  • Deliver your new vehicle to you, if you'd like, at no additional cost.
I really want to help you and I have a plan to do exactly that. Please give me a call or stop by from now until the close of business Saturday, February 27th, 2021; call me on my direct line, 470-xxx-xxxx.

With Service in Mind,

General Manager
 

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That would make logical sense but people do not make logical sense. If autonomous cars kill one person for every 10 that human drivers kill it will not be considered safe enough by the masses. They have to be hundreds, if not thousands, of times safer than human drivers in order to gain acceptance. And they will be... eventually.
I think two or three times safer that a human will be enough for regulators. That will be enough to get a lot of people to try it and like it. Then others will follow.
 

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It will be interesting to see how Ultium vs. 4680 turns out.

The 4680's appear to be cheaper to produce.
Tesla's idea of having a battery pack that is part of the car's structure probably means that the 4680's aren't servicable.
By contrast, Ultium is servicable to the extreme.

It's two opposite philosophies.
The 4680s are definitely cheaper to produce on a per-unit basis, but not necessarily on a per-kWh basis. Also, cylindrical cells cost a lot more to integrate into a pack than pouch or prismatic cells, which offsets a lot of the savings from making the cylindrical cells in the first place. It's important to remember that much of Tesla's battery cost advantage was based on chemistry (lower cobalt use), and the first generation Ultium cells are using a similar amount of cobalt as Tesla's current chemistry.

All we know at this point is that Tesla is targeting sub $100 per kWh cell costs while GM is claiming sub $100 per kWh finished pack costs for their first generation Ultium packs.
 

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I'm a little surprised that Chevy isn't pairing the buyback with an incentive ($ towards a new vehicle) to stay with the brand, or at least with GM. You'd think they'd be especially interested in retaining EV customers now that they're going all electric.
 

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I very skeptical that there will be any fix beyond a complete battery replacement.


"
One of the mechanisms for preventing this is to have a separator that resists the growth of, and puncture by, dendrites. Keeping in mind that this is just a rumor, if this story is true, it would appear that the separator used was inferior to design specifications. This allows the dendrites to grow and fires to occur. Note that this is only under extremely rare circumstances, but enough to be of long-term concern.

If this is the case, it is unlikely that there are any software fixes that could work around this problem. As dendrites can occur in any lithium ion battery at any charge level (although much more likely at a full charge), the only recourse is to replace the batteries. "
One fix is to solve the problem in cars that have it, maybe by replacing the entire battery. Another fix would be to find a way to know which cars have the problem and replace the batteries in only those cars. A third fix would be to avoid a fire when the problem exists (if possible). Is it possible that software could detect if cells were forming dendrites that could lead to a fire? Maybe not, but I can't completely rule it out. And it's always possible that there's a consistent factor that identifies which cells are susceptible to the problem. Maybe they used different suppliers for the separators in different cells throughout the years covered by the recall. Maybe there was one machine involved in the manufacturing process that introduced the problem.

None of these if probably likely, but there are many, many ways that a defect might be introduced in a predictable way. Unless we know all the results of a full investigation, we can't rule out the possibility that there may be a way to identify a subset of Bolts that is at risk.
 

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Sounds like the typical mass-produced B.S. mailings that get sent out periodically.
That's what I thought at first and you may be right. But the timing is pretty suspicious.

Wondering if they know that replacement batteries are coming and they want to pick up my car for cheap. Then Chevy replaces the battery for free and they sell the car at a really nice markup.
 
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