[Fivedoor]

Hey guys,

Just for giggles I test drove a couple Tesla’s.

I was supposed to test drive a Model 3 LR D, and a Model S100D. I ended up in a model 3 SR+ RWD instead of the LR D, and the correct model S 100D.
In my opinion, the Model 3 SR+ was very comparable to the Bolt,virtually identical range, a bit faster but not by a huge amount. The Model S was quick and lively, I have had fast performance cars in the past (heavily modified Lancer Evolution) and this wasn’t the fastest car I have driven, but it was not bad at all. The woman conducting the test drive sort of acted as a co-pilot for the cars, she ran everything that went through the touch screen while I did the driving.


I did not like the turn signals in the Model 3, they are similar to ones I have seen in BMW’s where you move the stalk and it returns to center instead of staying up or down, and they just didn’t “feel” good to me. The Model S had conventional style turn signals and they felt high quality.


The seats in both were very comfortable and adjustable. My wife (a very short woman) was able to achieve a comfortable driving position in the Model 3, but in the Model S to see over the dash even with the steering wheel fully retracted she had to be pressed up against the steering wheel… not good in an airbag equipped car.


Over all, I wouldn’t mind owning a Model 3, but I would get either the RWD LR, AWD LR or AWD P… no point in the SR or SR+ if you already have a Bolt. I would love to have a Model S, but my bank account would be unhappy with me with the purchase price of a new one, I would have to go with a used one.

Now to the controversial part… I HATED autopilot! If I could take my hands off the wheel and let it do its thing I may have been fine with it, but if my hands are on the wheel I want to be in control of the wheel… having it moving on its own when I wouldn’t move it, and not moving when I would move it was just annoying. The woman doing the test drive with me (co-pilot) had me engage autopilot with navigation in control where it takes you from highway to highway and to the end of an off-ramp to city streets before turning control over to the driver. The autopilot slows down for the off-ramp, but keeps a high rate of speed until the very end where it stands on the brakes. Just about enough to give me a heart attack! I don’t hypermile my Bolt, but I do know how to coast down my speed approaching an anticipated known stop rather than coming up to it at full speed and aggressively breaking at the last moment. Same thing with the adaptive cruise function. If approaching a slower moving car it doesn’t just let off the accelerator, it gets close and hits the brakes. This may have been a function of the follow distance setting though, if set for a larger follow distance it may not have been as aggressive. Can any Model 3 or Model S owners comment on this?

So, if I were to get a Tesla (non-performance version), my only additional expense would be paint color… no need for me to pony up the dough for autopilot!

Later,

Keith

 

[Dimitrij]

My Bolt lease expires in 1 year; I am not contemplating keeping it, and I am not under any pressure to stay pure BEV. I would wait for the dust to settle, and for the flea circus to leave town so we can look at a good choice of vehicles, at competitive prices, available immediately w/o pay-and-wait rituals.

I like a few things about TM3, but its overall utility on my scale of values is well below that of a good Prius (not sure how residual values compare).

There may be a surprise GM EV in the next year, a kind of a superBolt, which would be interesting to look at.

 

[discodanman45]

Autopilot is being updated on a monthly basis. What you are using now is not the same as what your same car will have a year from now. This is actually the difference between a Tesla and every car made today. If you buy the Bolt, what you see is what you get. With a Tesla, you get monthly, sometimes weekly, updates to improve the car. People that bought a Tesla Model 3 last year now have more functions on autopilot, better performance, more range, higher charging rates, and fart mode. No other car gets better with time.

 

[discodanman45]

There may be a surprise GM EV in the next year, a kind of a superBolt, which would be interesting to look at.

GM will probably announce another car by the end of this year, and might produce it in 2021. I am extremely disappointed in GM and them not pushing the electrification of their fleet quicker. Chevy has produced less Bolts in 2016, 2017, 2018, and 2019 then Tesla has made Model 3's this quarter. Which people are disappointed with the Model 3 numbers. I am getting sick of GM and their non-action in the EV market. Not only are Bolt sales slipping, but the cancelled the Volt. Put some advertising and sell Bolts where people want them.

The used Tesla Model S are great deals from the Tesla "CPO" website. You can get a used 2014 Model S 85 kWh battery for $30,000. This is a killer deal for a large sedan/hatchback that is an amazing car. The battery and drive unit are warranted for 8 years from the purchase date and unlimited mileage. You can also get air suspension, beautiful panoramic roof, great sound system, and great technology for a 5 year old car. You also get free supercharging for life and a good two year warranty on everything else in the car. The only negative that I have with the Model S is it is a huge car. I prefer driving the Bolt to work because it is more efficient, smaller for parking, and people don't try to race me.

 

[240vPlug]

I keep my eye on Tesla but nothing is screaming at me to get rid of my Bolt and replace it with a Model 3. The Bolt has everything I want and need and the TM3 doesn't have some of those things. I like to be in control so I wouldn't get AP anyway. I like Android Auto, One-Pedal driving, etc. so I am sticking with my 17 Bolt until something better comes along that still has all those things that I love and none of the things I don't.

 

[NewsCoulomb]

Keith, I think you and I have very similar tastes. Of course, with my Lancer EVO, I went the E85 route. Got to fuel domestically, ya know?

I also have no real interest in autopilot. I don't mind certain safety features, such as emergency braking (the type of system you'll only really wished you had once).

I'm torn about the Model 3, though. As you say, it would really need to be the LR for me, or (as you said) what's the point? For my current purposes, the Bolt EV serves my needs better than the SR or SR+ (similar range with far more utility). Of course, there's also the other principled issues, such as my reluctance to support an EV company that isn't supporting all EVs (especially at this point in adoption).

The vehicles I will be looking to replace in the future are the F-150 and the Volt, but I'm in no real hurry. The F-150 is driven less than 1,000 miles a year, and the Volt is EV about 60% of the time. So yes, in terms of replacing the Volt, the Model 3 LR would be high on that list, but the Bolt EV really does allow me to wait for something better.

The Model S and Xs that I've driven and ridden in haven't really impressed me. I'm still yet to ride in a Model S P100D, but I was able to drive a Model X P100D. It was quite chunky. I thought AP (I forget which version at this point) was okay, but I actually didn't find it significantly more capable than Nissan's Pro-Pilot. Now, apparently, AP has improved since then, so I'll have to test that as well.

I have a Niro EV review and test drive upcoming, but after that, I'm going to see if I can do a formal review of the SR+ (they have to be widely available, and I'll probably be stuck Turoing it... :-/ ).

 

[discodanman45]

I have a Niro EV review and test drive upcoming, but after that, I'm going to see if I can do a formal review of the SR+ (they have to be widely available, and I'll probably be stuck Turoing it... :-/ ).

Make sure you review a Model 3 with the newest update of autopilot with automatic lane changes. My friend just got the update and I am impressed. Really impressed. The on to off ramp is vastly improved and the Model 3 seems much more sure of itself now. I hate the Model 3 being a Sedan with the small trunk, but the autopilot is quickly advancing. If Tesla doesn't get sued out of existence by self driving, it will happen quicker than anyone would anticipate. The one thing that freaks me out is Tesla is watching every move we make with the new cars. They have a camera inside the car, why is that? If someone crashes the Model 3 while autopilot is on and they fall asleep or hang a weight from the steering wheel the lawsuit won't happen.

I thought self-driving was at least 10 years away. However, Tesla has hundreds of thousands of beta testers perfecting the software right now. If Tesla does get full self driving out by 2020, they will have a monopoly on the market for at least 10 years.

 

[Fivedoor]

Autopilot is being updated on a monthly basis. What you are using now is not the same as what your same car will have a year from now. This is actually the difference between a Tesla and every car made today. If you buy the Bolt, what you see is what you get. With a Tesla, you get monthly, sometimes weekly, updates to improve the car. People that bought a Tesla Model 3 last year now have more functions on autopilot, better performance, more range, higher charging rates, and fart mode. No other car gets better with time.

Understood, but my point was that after years of testing autopilot is not for me. It may be better than any other autonomous driving system, but until I can take my hands off the wheel I am not interested.

Keith

 

[discodanman45]

Understood, but my point was that after years of testing autopilot is not for me. It may be better than any other autonomous driving system, but until I can take my hands off the wheel I am not interested.

Keith

Autopilot is not for a lot of people. I had a loaner P90D Model X when my Tesla Model S had issues before delivery. Driving between a semi and a concrete wall going 60 mph was the scariest thing I have ever done driving. It was probably safer than me driving, but giving control to my car was a difficult thing to trust. Even with self driving, I would still want to drive the car myself until I could learn to trust the software. If anyone wants to try autopilot, make sure the first time you have someone else at that driving wheel that is familiar with the software. It is a little overwhelming the first time.

 

[TimBolt]

Make sure you review a Model 3 with the newest update of autopilot with automatic lane changes. My friend just got the update and I am impressed. Really impressed. The on to off ramp is vastly improved and the Model 3 seems much more sure of itself now. I hate the Model 3 being a Sedan with the small trunk, but the autopilot is quickly advancing. If Tesla doesn't get sued out of existence by self driving, it will happen quicker than anyone would anticipate. The one thing that freaks me out is Tesla is watching every move we make with the new cars. They have a camera inside the car, why is that? If someone crashes the Model 3 while autopilot is on and they fall asleep or hang a weight from the steering wheel the lawsuit won't happen.

I thought self-driving was at least 10 years away. However, Tesla has hundreds of thousands of beta testers perfecting the software right now. If Tesla does get full self driving out by 2020, they will have a monopoly on the market for at least 10 years.

I wouldn’t count on anyone delivering a fully autonomous vehicle in 2020, or by 2025, for that matter. No manufacturer is anywhere near full autonomy (technically level 5 autonomy). This isn’t a knock against Tesla, the technology simply isn’t ready yet.

 

[Boltar]

Had my first showroom experience with a Model 3 yesterday. Have enjoyed checking out previous S and Xs. Spent some time with it because I've been strongly considering a Model Y as a Bolt replacement next year. I left thinking I'll be waiting for the upcoming Audi and Porsche electrics.

As a taller guy, it has so much more difficult ingress/egress than the Bolt. And my other car is a lowered Audi TT, I'm not looking for additional ride height. But the zone between the top of the windshield curve and the back end of the front door is so narrow that I felt I needed to be extra careful squeezing my fat head through there sideways, difficult on a daily basis and God forbid an accident. There are other issues, sure with the turn signal stalk, wipers, everything on the screen, etc., but I was stuck at just getting in the car. Moving to the larger Model S, I was struck by the ?new B pillar incursion into ingress/egress as well. I'm sure it's better for crashes, but seemed in the way.

 

[Dyefrog]

I wouldn’t count on anyone delivering a fully autonomous vehicle in 2020, or by 2025, for that matter. No manufacturer is anywhere near full autonomy (technically level 5 autonomy). This isn’t a knock against Tesla, the technology simply isn’t ready yet.

Fully autonomous level 5 does seem like it will be a long way off. It's hard to even imagine it ever being as good as a human in ALL situations. I don't doubt that it's possible to be as good or better for 90% of driving situations this year though but there are just too many fringe cases that the human brain is just better at.

I use the autopilot quite a bit and the initial coolness of it has been replaced with "still needs work". It's understood that it's still Beta but there are some situations in heavy traffic where the lane changes are too slow or too many false positives of who know what it sees but random slow downs for no apparent reason are not reassuring.
I've driven with some people that struggle with multi-tasking and thinking ahead and I think they would be better off without it as it's only really good when on the open road or stop and go. Anything in between requires more effort/concentration than if you weren't using it at all. JMHO.

BTW, there's a livestream demo of Tesla's latest FSD on April 22nd.
https://electrek.co/2019/04/05/tesla-network-details-april-22

 

[madmike]

Kind of funny that a lukewarm review of a Tesla on a Bolt site is considered controversial and most of the responses are trying to defend how wonderful the Tesla is.

I was not impressed with the central screen of the model three, it looks like an afterthought that would be easily broken. Friends who had been in minor accidents with their Teslas waited 6 months plus for parts. I like to have a key fob. Tesla wanted me to but without a test drive...non-starter for me. I like to approve updates/improvements to my car.

5K below MSRP for the Bolt, no discounts on the three.

I'm sure the model three is a nice car, but it's not for me, or at least was not when I purchased my Bolt. A couple of times a year when I do a long drive I wish I had a Tesla.

 

[Mister Dave]

Understood, but my point was that after years of testing autopilot is not for me. It may be better than any other autonomous driving system, but until I can take my hands off the wheel I am not interested.

Keith

You'd like the Cadillac Supercruise.

 

[Packard V8]

Fully autonomous level 5 does seem like it will be a long way off. It's hard to even imagine it ever being as good as a human in ALL situations. I don't doubt that it's possible to be as good or better for 90% of driving situations this year though but there are just too many fringe cases that the human brain is just better at.

For true. Absolutely agree, it's probably not possible with today's technology to produce a level 5 system which would be preferable to an experienced adult driver fully alert and fully engaged in the task for no more than three hours.

However, being fully engaged and alert describes such a miniscule percentage of today's vehicle operators, it's a moot point to debate. The autonomous system will be using three or four sensing systems monitoring 360-degrees several times a second without a blink. Most truck drivers are consummate professionals; but consider that truck driver who's been fighting I-95 traffic from Portland to Baltimore for fourteen hours straight on a rainy, foggy winter day. BTDTNA. Then, there's the harried mother trying to get from soccer practice to home to make dinner, the car full of teenagers, the states where marijuana is now legal, the forty-five fatal accidents each day by drunk drivers and that anyone can not but wish for autonomous cars sooner rather than when they're perfected.

FWIW, I've ridden in a beta test and it was the safest, most boring ride imaginable. The challenge is not making them safer, it's that deciding upon acceptable risk which human drivers do hundreds of times a day. Today's beta versions would bring traffic to a halt because at present they're programmed to be too cautious. Interesting article this month in Car and Driver about how to get them to an acceptable tradeoff between moving and being safe.

jack vines

 

[Mister Dave]

Fully autonomous level 5 does seem like it will be a long way off. It's hard to even imagine it ever being as good as a human in ALL situations. I don't doubt that it's possible to be as good or better for 90% of driving situations this year though but there are just too many fringe cases that the human brain is just better at.

Like anticipating the actions of other drivers. I don't think it's a fringe case though. I had a couple of those situations just yesterday. They happen pretty fast.

 

[gern_blanston]

I'm in the climb-in/climb-out group. The 3 is a neat car for sure, but
the Bolt is just so damned easy to ingress/egress. (of course I am pushing 60.)

 

[GregBrew]

Like anticipating the actions of other drivers. I don't think it's a fringe case though. I had a couple of those situations just yesterday. They happen pretty fast.

One of my guilty pleasures is watching car-crash videos on YouTube. I treat it like a game, in that I predict where the crash is going to come from as I observe conflicts developing. I know it sounds crazy, but watching these silly things has improved my situational awareness (SA) quite a bit, even though I had quite good SA from decades riding bicycles and motorcycles in suburban traffic.

Twice now, I've impressed my wife while on the freeway with a vocal "here we go!" as I watched conflicts in early stages of development in traffic ahead, and took early evasive maneuvers to avoid a collision that was *about to* occur from another driver mindlessly swerving into my lane.

My wife *used to* think I was nuts to watch these things. Not any more.:nerd:

 

[Mister Dave]

Twice now, I've impressed my wife while on the freeway with a vocal "here we go!" as I watched conflicts in early stages of development in traffic ahead, and took early evasive maneuvers to avoid a collision that was *about to* occur from another driver mindlessly swerving into my lane.

My wife *used to* think I was nuts to watch these things. Not any more.:nerd:

There you go!

Humans are underrated.

 

[psyflyjohn]

A true autopilot is probably 10 years off, with Musks "Beta" testing likely to kill a fair amount of people meanwhile. I'll buy a car with one only if I can take a nap during the trip, or read a book. This "being alert and having your hands on the wheel" is totally B.S. You can only do that for about 5 minutes, when the mind tries to distract itself. That's when the accidents will happen. And guess what? You will be charged with distracted driving...