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We have no federal standards for masks, or anything else. The entire narrative from Republicans as long as I can remember, and increasingly Democrats, since Clinton, is that the government, other than the military, is bad, inefficient, and corrupt. And that only private companies can be trusted to do anything. Both parties have done their best to prove the truth of that view with admirable success.
Nor should we. We don't have a federal mandate on red meat consumption, soda consumption, tobacco use, hours spent in front of a screen, being overweight, developing type 2 diabetes, engaging in unprotected sex with strangers, kissing, high-fiving, or using ladders.

How could the federal government possibly have authority on mask use when Covid ranks 10th on the list of things that reduce life expectancy? They'd have to have worked through the other 9 things first before getting to mask mandates.

I'll steel man this by pointing out that mask wearing is meant primarily as a way to mitigate spread to others. Those other people have a choice to be in public. They also have a choice to visit establishments that require mask wearing or not. One can no further argue that that wearing a mask should be mandatory than protected sex (or monogamy) should be mandatory. Both affect community spread of disease.

It doesn't matter if a federal mandate can prolong my doomed life; that's my job, not theirs.

It's proper if local government wants to mandate it because that's the role of local government. We're free to elect other officials or move if we don't like it. If government authority were delegated properly (as intended), we'd care who is POTUS as much as we care if Taylor Swift releases another country album.
 

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I did winter sports. They weren't my first choice. That is why, at 24, I moved to Virginia, Back then we actually had real winters here, with feet of snow, but only for 4 months of the year. Now we don't have any that stays around for more than a day, if that. I got to retire in Florida weather, and didn't even need to move....just waited for climate change to catch up. :(
Just for you GJETSON
31055
 

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Just for you GJETSON
Thankfully, central Virginia is one of the places projected to have the least problems from climate change, other than heavy rains. Texas. on the other hand, will have some days when animals and people will die without AC.
 

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Thankfully, central Virginia is one of the places projected to have the least problems from climate change, other than heavy rains. Texas. on the other hand, will have some days when animals and people will die without AC.
I lived 11 years in Roanoke Va, beautiful there with the mountains
 

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Here are two interesting links I found.
This one gives a brief view of each state.

This one has lots of data points to look at but most interesting was the mask compliance they have.This is the first time I have seen US mask compliance data.
 

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This one has lots of data points to look at but most interesting was the mask compliance they have.This is the first time I have seen US mask compliance data.
I have been following Virginia cases, hospitalizations, and deaths per capita very closely for eight months. Assuming people are responding truthfully, I see they show higher mask compliance in Albemarle county Virginia, than the mostly rural parts of the state. It is not surprising this more densely populated, more affluent, more Democratic county has somewhat higher masking compliance than the sparsely populated, more conservative, rural counties. Also not surprisingly, rural counties have had, except for nursing home/prison/meat processing plant outbreaks, lower numbers of cases, hospitalizations, and deaths per capita. Fewer people, more spread out makes it very difficult to compare the effectiveness of masking compliance county to county.

Dr. Osterholm often uses a very good analogy. Uninfected people are like kindling. A bunch of sticks piled up together makes a spark much more likely to turn into a firestorm, than a bunch of sticks spread out over a large area.
 

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So no comment about my thought that mask wearing gives false confidence and may work against its purpose of slowing spread?
Seems like similar assertions about ABS, air bags and seat belts. Or maybe those folks that assert they drive safer when they're drunk. Nobody I know seems like they would drive like more of an idiot with those features than without. Having safety gear on doesn't make me feel like I can take chances when running my chainsaw, nor does a guard make me less cautions when using my table saw. I go out just when I need to (yes, I realize that is a subjective judgment, likely affected by my assessment of risk), and interact with the fewest people possible. Having a mask doesn't enter into that calculus, although I do wear one to minimize the risk when required by circumstance (have to be close to people), or by law. I don't wear a mask when hiking a trail, but I do have one available to put on when hiking single track.

But idiots gonna idiot. Doubtless some folks will misunderstand the point of trying to reduce aerosol transmission, and engage in riskier behavior than they might ordinarily, but I hope that they are in the minority, and the net effect of mask wearing is a positive one. I'm not sure how we, in statistically significant numbers, measure a potentially slight increase in risky behavior amongst mask wearers.
 

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Seems like similar assertions about ABS, air bags and seat belts. Or maybe those folks that assert they drive safer when they're drunk. Nobody I know seems like they would drive like more of an idiot with those features than without. Having safety gear on doesn't make me feel like I can take chances when running my chainsaw, nor does a guard make me less cautions when using my table saw. I go out just when I need to (yes, I realize that is a subjective judgment, likely affected by my assessment of risk), and interact with the fewest people possible. Having a mask doesn't enter into that calculus, although I do wear one to minimize the risk when required by circumstance (have to be close to people), or by law. I don't wear a mask when hiking a trail, but I do have one available to put on when hiking single track.

But idiots gonna idiot. Doubtless some folks will misunderstand the point of trying to reduce aerosol transmission, and engage in riskier behavior than they might ordinarily, but I hope that they are in the minority, and the net effect of mask wearing is a positive one. I'm not sure how we, in statistically significant numbers, measure a potentially slight increase in risky behavior amongst mask wearers.
I thought of the seatbelt analogy too. Incidents of crashes went way up after implementing them.

You may not consciously realize you take greater risk when safety measures are implemented, but that doesn't mean you subconsciously do. I noticed that when I wear my rock climbing harness, I am less cautious around ledges even when I'm not tied into anything. If I can recognize this type of influence safety gear has on me, who knows the influences I have not recognized.

...and even if you don't personally take any greater risk, that doesn't represent the population as a whole. Humans have a way of seeking a base-level of risk regardless of safety measures. It wouldn't surprise me if a study found about the same amount of covid spread in an otherwise similar population between mask wearers and non-mask wearers. When I'm not wearing a mask, I'm more conscious about my distance to someone, for instance.
 

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I thought of the seatbelt analogy too. Incidents of crashes went way up after implementing them.

You may not consciously realize you take greater risk when safety measures are implemented, but that doesn't mean you subconsciously do. I noticed that when I wear my rock climbing harness, I am less cautious around ledges even when I'm not tied into anything. If I can recognize this type of influence safety gear has on me, who knows the influences I have not recognized.

...and even if you don't personally take any greater risk, that doesn't represent the population as a whole. Humans have a way of seeking a base-level of risk regardless of safety measures. It wouldn't surprise me if a study found about the same amount of covid spread in an otherwise similar population between mask wearers and non-mask wearers. When I'm not wearing a mask, I'm more conscious about my distance to someone, for instance.
And this is why I mentioned "I realize that is a subjective judgment, likely affected by my assessment of risk", and later "I hope that they are in the minority, and the net effect of mask wearing is a positive one". I agree that I might accept more risk, perhaps subconciously, with a mask in tow, but what's important is whether the net risk to myself and others is greater, even figuring in my additionally risky behavior.

I didn't say that there wasn't such an effect, but that I don't know how we'd measure it (given that negative outcomes are not directle cause and effect and might have to be measured by impacts to someone not making the choice to wear the mask or to act more riskily), and that I hoped the net was a positive. After all, this is just like trying to push the cadmium rods a little further into CP-1.

Without proof, I posit that people who think C19 is an actual risk to themselves and their community will be less likely to become significantly less risk averse with a mask than someone who thinks C19 is a hoax. Those are the folks who wear masks like chin diapers and do body shots at an enormous swimming pool in Missouri over spring break.

On the seatbelt thing there are tons of articles on both sides of that assertion, but over time the effect does seem to be a reduced proportion of fatalities, and no significant compensating behavior. This article is a good read: https://web.stanford.edu/~leinav/pubs/RESTAT2003.pdf. I'm sure you'll be able to find a similarly credible study that asserts the opposite.
 

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I tend to believe mask wearing is a net benefit, just as seatbelts are a net benefit. I'd be curious to see the data on that though.

It wouldn't surprise me if the efficacy of mask wearing were sufficiently low, say 10% reduction in infection propagation, that the extra confidence it conveys to the wearer would be cause them to take a greater than 10% risk in their other behaviors and negate the benefit.
 

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So no comment about my thought that mask wearing gives false confidence and may work against its purpose of slowing spread?
You mean like condoms? Yeah, better go without and get STD's. It's either STD or TDS... take your pick. LOL
 

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I tend to believe mask wearing is a net benefit, just as seatbelts are a net benefit. I'd be curious to see the data on that though.

It wouldn't surprise me if the efficacy of mask wearing were sufficiently low, say 10% reduction in infection propagation, that the extra confidence it conveys to the wearer would be cause them to take a greater than 10% risk in their other behaviors and negate the benefit.
Not to pick nits, but there is an implicit assumption here that there two things could be measured in the same units, and they could be added and subtracted in a scalar fashion. I suspect this isn't the case, that they would be quantified very differently, and the interaction(s) would be nowhere linear.

I was thinking that, aside from the notions of risk friendliness, this is less like seat belts, and more like smoking in public places. The notion of a restriction having both personal health benefits and public health benefits that are a lot more direct is similar. Questions of personal liberty versus common good. The big difference is that one discussion happened over most of a century, and this one is happening over half a year. I remember many of the same arguments being made by smokers in the 80s, asserting that secondhand smoke wasn't actually bad for you, and nonsmokers were whiny babies. Those smokers had research from Phillip Morris to back up their claims, so they must have been right :)

Full disclosure, both my parents smoked. Lucky Strikes and Pall Malls. COPD and lung cancer respectively. I can't stand smoking, and put a lot more money into the economy (clubs, restaurants, concerts) when I no longer had to care about spending the evening in an ash tray. I feel much the same way about vaping. Feel free to do it in your house and your car, but keep it out of shared airspace.
 

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I was thinking that, aside from the notions of risk friendliness, this is less like seat belts, and more like smoking in public places.
Was a chain smoker as a lad, and drove drunk too. I'd say ignoring masks, and social distancing is more like drunk driving. Your victims won't die decades later.
 

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Was a chain smoker as a lad, and drove drunk too. I'd say ignoring masks, and social distancing is more like drunk driving. Your victims won't die decades later.
I can see that. Again, the societal transition to generally seeing that driving drunk was a bad idea took a very long time. I remember being surprised when on my first business trip to Austin, I was met by the sales guy, we got into his car, and while driving us away he cracked a beer and offered me one as well.

Aside from the efficacy of masks, which I don't much doubt, I'm still surprised by the number of people being caught on camera throwing a tantrum about masks who wouldn't bat an eye over "No shirt, no shoes, no service" signs at an establishment. And I'm not talking about staged incidents on airplanes by activists trying to make a 3oz. bag of peanuts last an entire 4 hour flight.
 

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Agreed, people should strive towards a consistent philosophy. I pushed back against the claim of "Trumpism" with regards to the plane incident because there wasn't evidence of that, just as we can't automatically claim racism if a black person gets shot by a non-black officer.
 
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