Chevy Bolt EV Forum banner

821 - 840 of 911 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,903 Posts
So no comment about my thought that mask wearing gives false confidence and may work against its purpose of slowing spread?
I dunno. I understand the concept of false confidence, but I also think that mask wearing is an indicator that the wearer is concerned about the disease. If you're concerned enough to wear a mask, it seems to me like that would extend to other behavioural changes like social distancing and limiting the number of people you let into your social circle.

Conversely, if you don't even bother with a mask then it seems more likely to me that you'd be lax in other safe practices as well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,738 Posts
Conversely, if you don't even bother with a mask then it seems more likely to me that you'd be lax in other safe practices as well.
Yes. The two lovely, tall blonds I saw walking around downtown, when we did our curbside food pickup, weren't wearing masks. If I was a lad, I wouldn't be asking them for a date.
 

·
Registered
2018 Bolt EV Premier Nightfall Gray
Joined
·
617 Posts
I dunno. I understand the concept of false confidence, but I also think that mask wearing is an indicator that the wearer is concerned about the disease. If you're concerned enough to wear a mask, it seems to me like that would extend to other behavioural changes like social distancing and limiting the number of people you let into your social circle.

Conversely, if you don't even bother with a mask then it seems more likely to me that you'd be lax in other safe practices as well.
Maybe. But, with most viruses, you build up a resistance to future infection after you have recovered from it. So, someone who has had the virus may feel like Superman and see no need to hassle with a mask. The number of people who have had the virus and recovered is quite large and growing daily.

The problem with generalizations is, they may make perfect sense given your personal experience. But given other circumstances, they may seem quite naive. As one who has not been infected, I agree with your point, but I know I have no clue about the people around me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,903 Posts
But, with most viruses, you build up a resistance to future infection after you have recovered from it. So, someone who has had the virus may feel like Superman and see no need to hassle with a mask. The number of people who have had the virus and recovered is quite large and growing daily.
People with immunity are kind of irrelevant to the discussion of whether masks make you overconfident.

And with a recorded 8 million recorded cases in the US, even if you use a 10X fudge factor it still means that only about 1 in 5 people are immune, not a very significant factor in terms of transmissibility.

This is the big flaw in the "herd immunity" argument, by any measure the huge majority of people are still susceptible and if you throw caution to the wind then you're going to get an incredible spike in cases. While we've been able to keep a lid on the death rates by being better about protecting seniors, we're still seeing hospitals being overloaded even at current levels. If we throw the doors open to the virus in order to establish herd immunity then the hospitals will have to triage most patients and the death toll would be tragic.

It's not a bad thing for a population to have herd immunity, but it would take a long time to get there in a way that protects the health system in order to minimize deaths. There's no shortcut that would provide a quick fix to the economic impact of the virus. And in the meantime it's looking increasingly hopeful that we'll have a vaccine that will be able to kickstart herd immunity without having to actually infect everyone with the full-blown disease.
 

·
Registered
2018 Bolt EV Premier Nightfall Gray
Joined
·
617 Posts
People with immunity are kind of irrelevant to the discussion of whether masks make you overconfident.

And with a recorded 8 million recorded cases in the US, even if you use a 10X fudge factor it still means that only about 1 in 5 people are immune, not a very significant factor in terms of transmissibility.

This is the big flaw in the "herd immunity" argument, by any measure the huge majority of people are still susceptible and if you throw caution to the wind then you're going to get an incredible spike in cases. While we've been able to keep a lid on the death rates by being better about protecting seniors, we're still seeing hospitals being overloaded even at current levels. If we throw the doors open to the virus in order to establish herd immunity then the hospitals will have to triage most patients and the death toll would be tragic.

It's not a bad thing for a population to have herd immunity, but it would take a long time to get there in a way that protects the health system in order to minimize deaths. There's no shortcut that would provide a quick fix to the economic impact of the virus. And in the meantime it's looking increasingly hopeful that we'll have a vaccine that will be able to kickstart herd immunity without having to actually infect everyone with the full-blown disease.
So, for one who has immunity, they should still wear a mask, for what reason? Fashion? Solidarity? Or just because some government official says so? And they are irrelevant? That is kind of condescending to someone who in fact is immune (I am not, but just making the argument for sake of discussion).

The problem some people have with these mandates is how little personal responsibility is trusted. If I am in a setting with 10 foot distances between people, eating, some regulations seem to require me to wear a mask and move it temporarily as I take each bite. What about this kind of mandate makes any sense?

Lawmakers tend to pass overly broad laws or regulations, and not get into the details. That is ok, but then it leaves things to interpretation, so if a police officer or business owner has some kind of animosity towards a person, that gives them license to impose all kinds of stupid.

When the vaccine arrives, will we still be mandated to wear masks? If so, for what public health reason? Simply because we don't trust people enough to act responsibly if they do in fact have immunity?
I get that there will be exceptions. Are we going to make masks mandatory forever on the 1:1M chance of an exception?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,903 Posts
So, for one who has immunity, they should still wear a mask, for what reason? Fashion? Solidarity? Or just because some government official says so? And they are irrelevant? That is kind of condescending to someone who in fact is immune (I am not, but just making the argument for sake of discussion).
OK, you and I are talking at cross purposes. My comments were in response to redpoint's question about whether masks make one overconfident. If you're immune then the question doesn't apply. Your comments are directed at the fairness of universal mask mandates, which is something else altogether. So here's my thoughts on that:

We live in a society where we all have to get along. Certain behaviours are socially acceptable, and certain others are not. Going out into the middle of the street and publicly defecating is not a socially acceptable behaviour, and I'd expect that there are laws against it in many jurisdictions - if for no other reason than if everybody did it then it would become a sanitation and public health issue. Does that kind of law restrict my freedom? Yes, it does - it means that if I desperately need to take a poo and I can't find a place to do it then I'm kind of hooped. Do I rail against the restriction? No, I don't.

That's just one instance of government restrictions to my freedom on a very broad spectrum of possibilities. The extreme end of the spectrum is Trump walking down Fifth Avenue and shooting someone. We don't let him or anyone else do that and I doubt you'd find many who seriously thinks that we should. The further you move from that case toward the other end of the spectrum, the more differences of opinion you encounter.

In the case of masks, there seems to be a pretty well established public health benefit to wearing them and very few alternatives right now. If you don't wear a mask, you're likely to place me at greater risk. So I support mask mandates in general. Luckily I live in an area where most people are reasonably sensible and we haven't had to mandate them except in certain special circumstances such as on public transit. IMHO that's the best possible world - one in which people do the proper thing without a figurative gun being held to their head.

But what about people with immunity - should they be required to wear a mask when there's a blanket mandate in place? I think the mandate should be crafted to allow exceptions for these kinds of circumstances. But if I was immune I'd still wear a mask in circumstances where it would make other people more comfortable. For me it's the same as trying to avoid loud farts in public, I don't really want to draw negative attention to myself.

Perhaps the responses to this issue are a predictor of who feels that they're entitled to fart loudly in public.... ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,738 Posts
I can't, for the life of me, understand who the president thinks he is appealing to when he says to voters, I (an alleged sexual predator, and possible deadly disease carrier) want to kiss strangers on the mouth. But then, I didn't get elected.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,850 Posts
Promising blood test while waiting for a vaccine:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,738 Posts
Promising blood test while waiting for a vaccine:

Yes. If they are shown to be at higher risk, they can get Remdesivir, like the president, and get back to campaigning four days earlier :)

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,903 Posts
Hoping that they can nail the genetic factors for those that have a higher risk. One clue:
Wouldn't it be great if some of this intense focus on the immune system leads to a better understanding of other auto-immune diseases like arthritis? It would be a fantastic silver lining to the COVID crisis if it led to better outcome for those suffering from other diseases as well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
236 Posts
Wouldn't it be great if some of this intense focus on the immune system leads to a better understanding of other auto-immune diseases like arthritis? It would be a fantastic silver lining to the COVID crisis if it led to better outcome for those suffering from other diseases as well.
It would be, but our understanding and control of the immune system is weak. We haven't cured things like arthritis, lupus, MS, psoriasis, etc., despite decades of research and funding. Similar with AIDS. We'd be in deep doo-doo if an airborne immune disease ever starts spreading.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
487 Posts
I skimmed https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/10/17/sturgis-rally-spread/ the other night. If you get hit by their paywall, these may work:

Collapsing passengers, CDC missteps and "public health malpractice": The story of the COVID flight from **** was on 60 Minutes on Sunday night. Story is 13.5 minutes long and not behind the CBS All Access paywall yet. The handling of the passengers was unbelievably bad.

Three COVID-19 positive people were let onto the flight after coming off the cruise ship where it seemed like “everyone” was coughing. When they got to Atlanta, nobody was tested for COVID-19 and other than three positive passengers, everyone else was free to go w/no quarantine.
The three positive passengers were taken to a hotel. Everybody else went to a cargo building where they were checked by the CDC for fever and filled out a short questionnaire. Nobody was given a COVID test. And some passengers told us they saw people with symptoms get through.

Kelly Edge: There were people, get this, their temperature was too high, so the CDC had them sit in chairs and wait and see if it got lower.

Some passengers removed their masks. Others hit the food court. Within hours more than 200 of them, exposed to COVID or already sick with it, boarded commercial flights to 17 states and Canada. Including the Andersons.

The cruise line would not share the passenger list with us, but we were able to track down 64 of the Americans. And of those 64, 45 of them told us they tested positive for COVID soon after coming home.
OT:
is under 5 minutes long. Apparently, Wuhan's becoming a tourist destination for Chinese.
 
821 - 840 of 911 Posts
Top