Chevy Bolt EV Forum banner

1001 - 1020 of 1113 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,084 Posts
Even if this is as good as touted, there is still a lot of work to be done, but still seems like positive news...
One of the big downsides of this particular vaccine is its requirement for ultra-cold storage. It needs to be stored at almost -100°F and pharmacies don't that capability. In fact most hospitals, even prestigious ones like the Mayo Clinic, don't have it. That makes the logistics of distribution for the vaccine very problematic.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
490 Posts
One of the big downsides of this particular vaccine is its requirement for ultra-cold storage. It needs to be stored at almost -100°F and pharmacies don't that capability. In fact most hospitals, even prestigious ones like the Mayo Clinic, don't have it. That makes the logistics of distribution for the vaccine very problematic.
Not sure that's really a problem. My local community college has liquid nitrogen cannisters hanging around for show and tell. That's about -340 degrees. I don't think it would require something much more than that. Pretty low tech. They don't need refrigeration equipment that can cool that low.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,084 Posts
Not sure that's really a problem. My local community college has liquid nitrogen cannisters hanging around for show and tell.
I'm certainly no expert in medical storage, but I suspect it would take a lot more than just a bunch of canisters. What are you supposed to do with the vaccine samples - just stick them into the canisters? The more you put in, the less LN you have in the canister. How do you maintain the cryogenic temperatures when you have to keep removing doses from the canister? How do you handle them? Are the doses breakable? Can you source and distribute the tens of millions of canisters needed? What about a supply of liquid nitrogen and the capacity for generating and cooling it?

Maybe it's a less of problem than the experts quoted in the article believe, but someone's going to have to figure out how to do it. And there's a question of how quickly the vaccine can be produced as well.

All of which is to say that it's very nice that we have what may be an effective vaccine, but that doesn't mean that all our problems are over. We'll still need to live with this virus for many more months, so something's going to have to be done about the current trajectory of infections because if it continues on its current exponential growth curve then the availability of a vaccine may become a moot point. I hate to think what's going to happen to case levels when people inevitably get together for Thanksgiving, let alone Christmas.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
420 Posts
I'm certainly no expert in medical storage, but I suspect it would take a lot more than just a bunch of canisters. What are you supposed to do with the vaccine samples - just stick them into the canisters? The more you put in, the less LN you have in the canister. How do you maintain the cryogenic temperatures when you have to keep removing doses from the canister? How do you handle them? Are the doses breakable? Can you source and distribute the tens of millions of canisters needed? What about a supply of liquid nitrogen and the capacity for generating and cooling it?

Maybe it's a less of problem than the experts quoted in the article believe, but someone's going to have to figure out how to do it. And there's a question of how quickly the vaccine can be produced as well.

All of which is to say that it's very nice that we have what may be an effective vaccine, but that doesn't mean that all our problems are over. We'll still need to live with this virus for many more months, so something's going to have to be done about the current trajectory of infections because if it continues on its current exponential growth curve then the availability of a vaccine may become a moot point. I hate to think what's going to happen to case levels when people inevitably get together for Thanksgiving, let alone Christmas.
I don't think anyone was suggesting our problems are over. There are a host of issues to consider from long term efficacy to genetic drift in C19 to equitable distribution of vaccine. That being said, a number of transport businesses have been ramping up on appropriate storage for a while:

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
420 Posts
Interesting Pfizer info
The optics certainly aren't good, and even if the trades were planned well in advance, that doesn't prevent influencing an announcement date to push news before or after a planned set of trades. As long as you don't leave a trail of such influence.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
523 Posts
More than a third of 83 people who attended Ohio wedding test positive for Covid-19
A recent Ohio wedding attended by 83 people has become the latest super-spreader event amid a nationwide surge in Covid-19 after nearly half of them tested positive for coronavirus, the newlywed couple said.

Among the 32 people to contract the virus were the couple, Anthony and Mikayla Bishop, and three of their grandparents, two of whom visited the emergency room, the Bishops said in an interview with NBC affiliate WLWT of Cincinnati.

“I didn't think that almost half of our wedding guests were gonna’ get sick,” Mikayla Bishop told the station. “You're in the moment. You're having fun. You don't think about COVID anymore."
...
But aside from the couple’s grandparents, few people appeared to wear masks, even while they let loose during the reception and were close to one another on the dance floor.
From https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/11/18/ohio-wedding-covid-coronavirus/ :
A photo of their wedding posted to the venue’s Facebook page shows a basketful of hand sanitizer bottles for guests beside a container holding disposable white masks. A sign in between read: “Spread Love Not Germs.” But another picture shows the white-and-gold chairs for guests did not appear to be at least six feet apart, as recommended by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

Although the couple both quickly noticed most guests hadn’t picked up masks, they told WLWT they didn’t feel they could change anything at that point.

“When I saw everyone not wearing masks I was just like, ‘Oh, well I guess we’re just gonna kinda go with it I guess,’” Anthony Bishop told the station.
Photos currently still up at Cooper Creek Event Center and Cooper Creek Event Center. Cooper Creek Event Center has pics from the wedding’s setup.

Indoors, people not spaced apart properly and almost nobody wearing masks during a pandemic? Good going!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,259 Posts
Indoors, people not spaced apart properly and almost nobody wearing masks during a pandemic? Good going!
Did you hear the interview with a nurse from South Dakota who had patients denying COVID-19 was real just before they were intubated?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,153 Posts
Uh huh, because it's the governors job to make sure people don't make bad personal decisions. Nobody forced anyone to attend the wedding, or be in close proximity, etc, etc.

Way more life is lost from people being overweight than Covid, and we don't demand governors personally see to it that people have no choice but to be a healthy weight.

Politicians can give their recommendations, and I will determine if I'll take it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
523 Posts
Uh huh, because it's the governors job to make sure people don't make bad personal decisions. Nobody forced anyone to attend the wedding, or be in close proximity, etc, etc.
From https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/11/18/ohio-wedding-covid-coronavirus/
Ohio officials are concerned enough about the dangers of weddings and other large gatherings that Gov. Mike DeWine (R) announced Monday a revised health order limiting mass gatherings in the state. Since March, no gatherings with more than 10 people are allowed in the state, but funerals and weddings are excluded from the 10-people limit. As of Tuesday, wedding receptions, funerals and other events held at banquet facilities are not allowed to have more than 10 people seated per table. Additionally, no dancing will be permitted at these events where attendees should wear their masks at all times except when eating or drinking.
The above improved restrictions don't go far enough.
Way more life is lost from people being overweight than Covid, and we don't demand governors personally see to it that people have no choice but to be a healthy weight.
I can't speak to your stats but being overweight isn't a communicable disease to others. Early deaths from obesity are an existing issue vs. new deaths and illnesses brought on by a novel (new to humans) coronavirus.

You know about this, right?
CDC: One wedding led to 177 cases of COVID-19 and 7 deaths because attendees refused to wear masks and physically distance - the 7 people that died didn't even attend the wedding! I haven't had a chance to read Multiple COVID-19 Outbreaks Linked to a Wedding Reception in ... yet. How would you like it if you ended up in the hospital or dead because someone careless held a prohibited event in violation of laws or if no laws were in place and people were reckless?

If proper contact tracing is done for the above Ohio wedding is done, I'm sure there will be a lot more just the 34 people infected and there will likely be some deaths from it.
Politicians can give their recommendations, and I will determine if I'll take it.
That's the problem. Many many people won't follow recommendations and then they end up catching and spreading COVID-19 to others, possibly putting them in the hospital, causing long-term health damage or killing them, this includes healthcare workers and random innocent people.

The people in Ozarks public health workers feel 'hated' in Covid-19 spike - CNN Video won't wear masks. It's going eventually overload the healthcare system in that area, cause health problems for many people and kill some people there, all for no reason other than the refusal to wear masks.

Many parts of the US have mask mandates including mine. Even with the mandates, there are anti-maskers who refuse to follow and become abusive or violent, which is REALLY stupid. Besides the health benefits of mask mandates, at least businesses can say "hey, it's required by law. I didn't make the rules" for their employees and customers instead of it seeming like the employees/owners are the ones being difficult.

Have you looked at how many COVID-19 deaths there are in places that have handled it well like Taiwan, South Korea and New Zealand, for example? Sort Coronavirus Update (Live): 56,583,049 Cases and 1,355,147 Deaths from COVID-19 Virus Pandemic - Worldometer by deaths per 1 million population. Just search for Korea to get South Korea.

Taiwan has about 24 million people so a bit over half of what California and under 8% of the US population. They've only had 7 COVID-19 deaths in TOTAL. Yet, the US is back to having days of over 1000 COVID-19 deaths per day. We just crossed the 250K COVID-19 death mark.

As I posted at COVID-19 aka 2019 (and 2020) Novel Coronavirus - Page 138 - My Nissan Leaf Forum, with some light edits:
This is fricking nuts! More than 8 months into the pandemic and there are still people who think it's hoax?

This is from healthcare workers in 3 different states:

'This is not a hoax': Health workers frustrated with patients refusing to believe COVID-19 is real - from WI
In addition to capacity issues, he's facing another challenge—patients refusing to believe they have COVID-`19.

"I've heard, 'It will go away after the election,' I've heard, 'I have O-negative type blood and my blood type can’t get COVID,' yet they're being admitted to the ICU," Dr. Larsen said.

He and other health workers say they believe people have stopped listening to them, and some say it's been tough to see people still not social distancing.
"They deny it," Smithson said.

Their family members deny it. We have these patients who literally are on life support. We're working super hard to get them better, finally helping them to wake up. And then the first thing they communicate is that it's all a hoax.
"I wish people understood how much we really care..." Roberts said.

Dr. Brandon Webb says there continues to be pushback over the state's new mask mandate.
A FB friend of someone I know continually spews misinformation in FB comments about COVID and political mattters. I'm pretty sure it's the same person who has made a ton of anti-mask comments including posting Are These Claims About the Effectiveness of Face Masks True? verbatim (asserting the post in there was true). Today, she said "Its a virus, LESS deadly than the flu!!" ARGH!

Many Challenges Arise When People Doubt Pandemic's Threat a 4 minute listen.
ROTT: But go outside and ask folks, mask-wearers or not, about their thoughts on the coronavirus pandemic and...

MARVIN LOFTIS: (Laughter) The big joke?

ROTT: You think it's a big joke?

LOFTIS: It's just another cold.
...
CRAIG MANN: It's garbage. It's absolute garbage. And there's been plenty of proof behind the whole COVID pandemic, if you will, that links back to communist China. And it's communist Marxism that they're trying to push on this country.
...
PAM FORNQUEST: And now they're telling us the hospitals are overwhelmed here in our community? It's for fear. That's what it's for - just to cause fear. And I don't appreciate that at all. It's a fear tactic.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,153 Posts
I can't speak to your stats but being overweight isn't a communicable disease to others. Early deaths from obesity are an existing issue vs. new deaths and illnesses brought on by a novel (new to humans) coronavirus.
You've built a fine strawman of my argument. Don't misconstrue my defense of freedom of association as saying large voluntary wedding gatherings in close proximity is a good idea.

The similarity isn't communicability, it's liberty to make potentially bad decisions for oneself. You even quoted that point in the excerpt you responded to.

Let's follow the logic, and please correct me where I've gone awry;

1. Ostensibly the imperative to trample the civil liberty of freedom of association is to curtail earlier death and preserve historically high average age of mortality.
2. The threat is so dire that it supersedes the severity of all other threats that didn't trigger the imperative to trample the civil liberty of freedom of association or other fundamental liberties.
3. Overweight/obesity is a comorbidity on nearly any fatal disease including the #1 killer of people, heart disease, and the #2 killer of people, cancer. It's even a comorbidity for Covid.
4. BMI is nearly entirely controlled by behavior.
5. Covid threat is nearly entirely controllable by behavior when it comes to voluntary social engagements.

Conclusion: Since overweight/obesity has been and still is a much larger threat to life than Covid, and considering this threat has not exceeded the threshold to trample the much lower valued civil liberty of determining what and how much individuals eat, trampling the much greater civil liberty of freedom of association for a much lesser threat to life is a contradiction in values and priority.

We might debate which liberties are most valuable, but it seems obvious to me that this order is correct:

1. Freedom of speech
2. Freedom of association
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
42. Freedom to choose what and how much to eat.

Snake handling preachers, and death cult leaders have no responsibility for their followers decisions. But in this case, the cult members are endangering other citizens.
Other citizens don't have to throw themselves into harm's way. For the sake of argument, let's assume a vaccine is never feasible. What liberties should then be tossed out indefinitely?

The freedom of association is more important than my physical life, because life derives meaning from living (freely exchanging thoughts and feelings with those you wish to associate).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,259 Posts
The freedom of association is more important than my physical life, because life derives meaning from living (freely exchanging thoughts and feelings with those you wish to associate).
This pandemic, like all pandemics, will not end human life. If no effective vaccine is developed, we will learn to cope, or our population will be permanently reduced, at least until we or the virus evolves.

The reality is that there appear to be several vaccines that will be effective, and we already have the means of reducing infections and deaths until the vaccine becomes widely available.

There is a law, I believe, against shouting fire in a theater where no fire exists. Maybe the lawyers on here can tell me if it is a crime for the fire marshal to stand at the front of a burning theater shouting, "There is no fire."

The idea that we should just sit and watch the movie until the fire burns out to protect your freedom to associate sounds frankly insane
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,091 Posts
This pandemic, like all pandemics, will not end human life. If no effective vaccine is developed, we will learn to cope, or our population will be permanently reduced, at least until we or the virus evolves.

The reality is that there appear to be several vaccines that will be effective, and we already have the means of reducing infections and deaths until the vaccine becomes widely available.

There is a law, I believe, against shouting fire in a theater where no fire exists. Maybe the lawyers on here can tell me if it is a crime for the fire marshal to stand at the front of a burning theater shouting, "There is no fire."

The idea that we should just sit and watch the movie until the fire burns out to protect your freedom to associate sounds frankly insane
I'm not sure why, but the very vivid imagery that you came up with to support your argument reminded me of one of the pivotal moments in "Inglorious Basterds." Anyway, very effective. Your second paragraph is kind of what I was alluding to when I mentioned the failure of leadership in SD.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,153 Posts
There is a law, I believe, against shouting fire in a theater where no fire exists. Maybe the lawyers on here can tell me if it is a crime for the fire marshal to stand at the front of a burning theater shouting, "There is no fire."

The idea that we should just sit and watch the movie until the fire burns out to protect your freedom to associate sounds frankly insane
You're conflating freedom to associate and speak with liability for willfully misleading people that results in injury. Someone deciding that the low risk of having Thanksgiving with loved ones is worth it is not tantamount to telling everyone in a burning theater that there is no fire.

It's non-sequitur.

I'm not sure why, but the very vivid imagery that you came up with to support your argument reminded me of one of the pivotal moments in "Inglorious Basterds." Anyway, very effective. Your second paragraph is kind of what I was alluding to when I mentioned the failure of leadership in SD.
Well, you'll be super convinced by the imagery of how horrific the holocaust was, and because of how horrible that was that you must obey my commands, beginning with my command not to think about whether a non-related bad thing should convey authority to me.
 
1001 - 1020 of 1113 Posts
Top