[ai4px]

OK guys, I gotta be honest here.... I love the little bolt. If I compare the price of gas and electric at my house, the car gets >90mpg. Wonderful. However.... Yesterday I went on a trip to/from Atlanta, 510 miles round trip. There are 3 places across I-20 in GA to fast charge and I tended to keep the battery low to maximize the charge rate.

Here's the problem... I never got 50kw. I got 44kw tops, and when charging to 80%, it slowed to 32kw and then 25kw. The charge cost me $14.05 for 35.83kwh, 40c/kwh. It took 56minutes to get 35kwh. If I convert this price to gallons of gas, it means that for that price my Bolt got the equivalent of 20mpg. All told, I spent about 2:30 charging yesterday.

The price of L2 charging at chargepoint is $1/hr for 3 hours. Of course I'm sure you could mosey out to the parking lot and restart your session. At $1/hr, that gives me 90miles of range for $3, or about 75mpg, which is wonderful.

So for a trip of around 200 miles with L2 charging at the other end, the Bolt is great. If you need to fully recharge the battery using DCFC in one day, it isn't economical at all.

I think my new personal rule is that if I must travel <200 miles in a day, I'll take the Bolt. If more than 200 miles and I and can stay overnight, i'll take the Bolt. If I can't stay the night, I'll take the Tesla because their DCFC is cheaper and faster by a factor of 2-1/2. We did take the tesla to Key West last month and it turned a 12 hour trip into 17 hours, so the rule for that is if I have to charge more than twice outbound on a trip, I'm taking our ICE car.

We have a saying that it takes 10 at-a-boys to make up for one aw-shucks. Given that I drive the Bolt for 1/3rd the cost daily and don't have to deal with oil changes, that's a metric poo ton of at-a-boys that does make up for the occasional long trip. I still love the Bolt but I'm firguring out which sorts of trips it is optimal to drive.

 

[Dimitrij]

It only takes one look at the Bolt's geometry to determine it's not an interstate cruiser. Instead, it's an archetypal urban/suburban/commuter microvan. The huge bonus of course is that it is very cool and can drive like an ultra-hot hatch, if the driver is so inclined and the circumstances allow. The DCFC port adds some up-and-down the coast interurban capability, but does not alter its primary competence.

For as long as you use it in its intended role, it's 5+ out of 5. Try something else, and you'd be the one to blame if it doesn't work out

 

[SparkE]

ai4px - it sounds like the DCFCs were 125A max. 125A*360V = 45 kW. If you had found 150A (or larger - but the Bolt would have only pulled 150A) DCFCs, you might have gotten 54 kW.

Yes, the Bolt 'steps down' the charging rate starting around 50-55% - there are 3 different 'levels' (?rates? ?speeds?). There are loads of threads on that subject here, with graphs.

For the specific trip you mentioned ... I might have (a) left with full 'tank', (b) stopped at a DCFC when around 20-35%, added up to about 55%, then continued on to Atlanta and then (c1) done 'b' again, fast-charging up to around 50% (c2) plugged in at a J-1772 for several hours to 'top off' for the return.

Or, I might have just taken my 40mpg PZEV - 250-350 miles one-way is just about my (my personal) limit for taking a Bolt, unless the DCFCs were (a) plentiful and/or (b) free. They just don't charge fast enough (fast enough for me - YMMV) to take it on a road-trip.

 

[Rutherford]

Dcfc question

Is there an add-on option for a Bolt to allow DCFCing. I have Level 2 charging but not for DCFC. Do you have to order the DCFC option when you order a new c Bolt or can this be retro fitted?

 

[zzzing]

The dcfc option must be ordered, there is no known retro-fit at this time

 

[NewsCoulomb]

Now that people are done Bolt EV bashing, let's talk about reality. ai4px's experiences and Dimitrij's opinions do not represent the actual capabilities of the Bolt in regards to long distance travel. There are still concerns about the coverage of public DCFC in middle America (heck, even in some parts of California), but those should not be solely the Bolt EV's burden to bear. We didn't pay a minimum $20,000 premium for the privilege of a private, walled-garden, so let's look at things a bit more realistically.

Even if it did cost $0.40 per kWh, that's hardly the cost of a 20 mpg car, unless you pay FAR less than the national average for a gallon of gasoline. At EPA-rated efficiency, 40 cents per kWh would be 10 cents per mile in the Bolt EV. And at 10 cents per mile in a 20 mpg car, you would be paying $0.50 to $1.00 a gallon less than the national average (about $2 a gallon). Where I live in California (so yes, higher gas prices than average), $0.10 a mile is very close to Prius costs. So not great by EV standards, but hardly something to be upset about on an occasional long trip.

The big issue here is the charging time. You stated 56 minutes to get 35 kWh (charging up past 80%), and that's typical. But that's also why you don't charge past 68% unless you absolutely need to. Still, keep in mind that that is an average charging rate of over 35 kW on a 125 A charger only rated at 50 kW. Very typical of what most EVs would see on that charger. I'm still not sure where the 2.5 hours of charging time comes in, unless you were counting the L2 charging as well.

You also stated that it took 17 hours for a 12 hour drive to Key West in your Tesla (implying 5 hours worth of charging). Again, that indicates charging way longer on a DC charger than is advised. I'm surprised other Tesla owners weren't giving you the stink eye. I can only guess that was about a 700 to 750 mile trip. Even in the Bolt EV, I can't imagine more than 4 hours of total charging time for a trip like that (if public DCFC were spaced in a similar way to how the Superchargers are spaced along that route).

Without knowing the routes specifically, I can't really comment more other than to say that the only thing really limiting the Bolt EV at this point is the public charging infrastructure. With it in place, it is fully capable of keeping pace with the first generation of Model S using the Supercharger Network over long distances. Both, if charged ideally, should be able to maintain 3 to 3.5:1 driving to charging time ratios. In other words, your 12 hour trip to Key West shouldn't require more than 4 hours of charging in either car. I personally feel that that is about the baseline of acceptability for most Americans, but it is acceptable. The only real issue for the Bolt EV is that its network is still about 8 months away where as the Model S already has a private network to use.

Is there an add-on option for a Bolt to allow DCFCing. I have Level 2 charging but not for DCFC. Do you have to order the DCFC option when you order a new c Bolt or can this be retro fitted?

It sounds like the dealership might not have been upfront with you. The DCFC must be in place at the time you purchase the vehicle. It cannot be added later.

 

[wesley]

The charging speed you observed is perfectly normal for a 50kW charger with 125A output. So long as you charge between 0 and 68%, it should be optimal in terms of time and money.

As for the economics, EV charging cost in the US does not seem to be competitive with gas prices - especially for DCFC - from the experiences you described. I wonder if this is typical. This is completely opposite of my experience in Korea due to two factors - traditionally heavy taxes on fossil fuel, and EV charging discount program (up to 75% total) that runs from 2017 to 2019.

Converting to US units and currency, gasoline costs around $5.50/gal for me. I think that's roughly twice the US average. Meanwhile, I currently charge my Bolt at $0.042/kWh at my apartment's DCFC, which calculates to almost exactly $0.01/mile. My old sedan gets 22mpg, so that's $0.25/mile for me. Bolt is 25 times less costly to drive, which is insane. Public DCFCs are much more expensive at $0.078/kWh, but is still quite cheap. Even after the end of the discount program, it would still be economical to drive an EV, just not as much as right now.

 

[NewsCoulomb]

The charging speed you observed is perfectly normal for a 50kW charger with 125A output. So long as you charge between 0 and 68%, it should be optimal in terms of time and money.

As for the economics, EV charging cost in the US does not seem to be competitive with gas prices - especially for DCFC - from the experiences you described. I wonder if this is typical. This is completely opposite of my experience in Korea due to two factors - traditionally heavy taxes on fossil fuel, and EV charging discount program (up to 75% total) that runs from 2017 to 2019.

Converting to US units and currency, gasoline costs around $5.50/gal for me. I think that's roughly twice the US average. Meanwhile, I currently charge my Bolt at $0.042/kWh at my apartment's DCFC, which calculates to almost exactly $0.01/mile. My old sedan gets 22mpg, so that's $0.25/mile for me. Bolt is 25 times less costly to drive, which is insane. Public DCFCs are much more expensive at $0.078/kWh, but is still quite cheap. Even after the end of the discount program, it would still be economical to drive an EV, just not as much as right now.

The OP's experiences are not typical for the United States, but even if they were, it would mean that expensive, long-distance trips in an EV cost the same as the least expensive gasoline powered car (which is several times cheaper than large, inefficient gasoline cars, SUVs, and trucks).

 

[Usain]

The OP's experiences are not typical for the United States, but even if they were, it would mean that expensive, long-distance trips in an EV cost the same as the least expensive gasoline powered car (which is several times cheaper than large, inefficient gasoline cars, SUVs, and trucks).

I don't mind if DCFC costs the same per mile as gasoline. I know that charging with L1 or L2 at home and destination will cost next to nothing.


Over the summer, I took a 1000 mile trip in the Bolt, with three destinations. It covered some of the same area as the OP. I did the math and overall cost was a lot less than if I had taken my 40 mpg hybrid.

 

[ai4px]

The big issue here is the charging time. You stated 56 minutes to get 35 kWh (charging up past 80%), and that's typical. But that's also why you don't charge past 68% unless you absolutely need to. Still, keep in mind that that is an average charging rate of over 35 kW on a 125 A charger only rated at 50 kW. Very typical of what most EVs would see on that charger. I'm still not sure where the 2.5 hours of charging time comes in, unless you were counting the L2 charging as well.

You also stated that it took 17 hours for a 12 hour drive to Key West in your Tesla (implying 5 hours worth of charging). Again, that indicates charging way longer on a DC charger than is advised. I'm surprised other Tesla owners weren't giving you the stink eye. I can only guess that was about a 700 to 750 mile trip. Even in the Bolt EV, I can't imagine more than 4 hours of total charging time for a trip like that (if public DCFC were spaced in a similar way to how the Superchargers are spaced along that route).

Without knowing the routes specifically, I can't really comment more other than to say that the only thing really limiting the Bolt EV at this point is the public charging infrastructure. With it in place, it is fully capable of keeping pace with the first generation of Model S using the Supercharger Network over long distances. Both, if charged ideally, should be able to maintain 3 to 3.5:1 driving to charging time ratios. In other words, your 12 hour trip to Key West shouldn't require more than 4 hours of charging in either car. I personally feel that that is about the baseline of acceptability for most Americans, but it is acceptable. The only real issue for the Bolt EV is that its network is still about 8 months away where as the Model S already has a private network to use.

Gas here is $2.50 gallon, electric at home is 11cents. My ICE car (our 3rd car) gets 42mpg, a 2016 honda civic. The car I traded my Bolt for was a HOnda Fit that got 38mpg. So I am troubled to find that I spent the equivalent of 20mpg on "gas" when I could have simply driven the Civic for 42mpg, or the Tesla for "Free". I did it as a learning experience, so no harm no foul.

I have a MS60, meaning I get about 190miles range at highway speeds. I drove the route and stopped when the tesla nav system told me to. There are a lot of super chargers in southern Florida and I did often skip locations. Once I got to northen FL, GA and SC, the charger locations are nearly at the range that you have to get a full charge.

As for my trip with the Bolt and charing... I charged from 20% to 78% to get from Augusta GA to home. There are chargers in Columbia SC, but the one green lots in Columbia is 10 miles out of the way along my route. I arrived home with 20 miles to spare... a new "low" for me.

The 69% number is new to me. Id always heard 80%. The charge curve of the Tesla does taper nicely, but the Bolt is more clunky. The magic time for charging is 1 time constant at 63%, then 86%... so 80 is about the knee of the charge taper.

It seems you are telling us we're doing it wrong and we're doing what we have to. I'm still enamored with the Bolt for round town useage or round trips of less than 200 miles. But over 200 miles, I think it's fair to let people know they should spend the night and L2 charge... that L3 charging is going to cost the same as if you got 20mpg. As I stated.... L2 charging at $1/hr works out to 70mpg, L2 at $15/hour works out to 20mpg. The driver is free to decide with this information.

 

[GJETSON]

In reality, I don't much care how much it costs per kWh, or if it is slower than gassing up. We would have used our Bolt to go to Rochester, and anyplace else out of state, if there was a real DC charging infrastructure in place for anybody other than Tesla owners. We prefer the driving experience in the Bolt, and we bought it, primarily, to reduce our CO2 footprint.

 

[jms]

My understanding is that you shouldn't fully recharge on DCFC (L3). It's not good for the life of the battery. If you do use it then do it on the lower part of the battery toward the top 50% it's worse for the battery. My plan would be full charge L2 before leaving, L3 at some point 75% of the way there (or as needed) and L2 at destination. If the cost of the L3 charge got to 20 mpg that's ok it is dwarfed by the cost of the other 75% of the trip.

 

[rgmichel]

I only use DC fast charging on long distance trips during the day, with 240 volt charging overnight, and charging is dictated more by the location of chargers than much else. I do try to go as low as possible on the battery before charging, but that is not always possible. Also, my tolerance for waiting while charging amounts to 40-50 minutes, which is the time for a meal or bathroom break. Using theses rules, I can do 450 miles in a day comfortably. Beyond that is just too much charging time.



The economics are irrelevant to me, as the overall costs of ownership of a Bolt EV are so low that the slight increase in cost for long distance driving is not a big deal. Any mpg comparison with an ICE car is a bit disingenuous given the high overall costs of running an ICE car.

 

[NewsCoulomb]

Gas here is $2.50 gallon, electric at home is 11cents. My ICE car (our 3rd car) gets 42mpg, a 2016 honda civic. The car I traded my Bolt for was a HOnda Fit that got 38mpg. So I am troubled to find that I spent the equivalent of 20mpg on "gas" when I could have simply driven the Civic for 42mpg, or the Tesla for "Free". I did it as a learning experience, so no harm no foul.

But you didn't pay the same as a 20 mpg car. Maybe, if your gas was $2 a gallon, but it's not. And if your home electricity is 11 cents a kWh, then you definitely didn't because 2/5 of your trip was at that cost (EPA efficiency at 11 cents per kWh is 3 cents a mile... or 30% cheaper than a 58 mpg Prius on $2.50 per gallon gas).

You might have paid the equivalent of a 20 mpg car on $2.50 per gallon gas for that charging session, but your total trip cost was probably closer to what it would cost in your Civic. Also, it sounds like you were basing your costs on the Range Estimator, which varies (and which I've found to be extremely conservative over about 20% battery). Tesla always show EPA mileage, so if you add 150 miles in your Tesla, the same might look like 100 miles or 200 miles in your Bolt EV, depending on circumstances.

I have a MS60, meaning I get about 190miles range at highway speeds. I drove the route and stopped when the tesla nav system told me to. There are a lot of super chargers in southern Florida and I did often skip locations. Once I got to northen FL, GA and SC, the charger locations are nearly at the range that you have to get a full charge.

Okay, then your experience in your Model S wouldn't be that different than your experience in the Bolt EV. It sounds like Tesla can also benefit from properly spaced Superchargers in that region. With proper spacing, a Model S60 should be able to maintain an average trip speed of about 55-60 mph. With properly spaced 150 A DCFC, a Bolt EV should be able to maintain an average trip speed of 50-55 mph.

As for my trip with the Bolt and charing... I charged from 20% to 78% to get from Augusta GA to home. There are chargers in Columbia SC, but the one green lots in Columbia is 10 miles out of the way along my route. I arrived home with 20 miles to spare... a new "low" for me.

The 69% number is new to me. Id always heard 80%. The charge curve of the Tesla does taper nicely, but the Bolt is more clunky. The magic time for charging is 1 time constant at 63%, then 86%... so 80 is about the knee of the charge taper.

The Bolt EV has a step-down charging curve. The Tesla has a taper curve. They both have their advantages and disadvantages. In either case, there's a point at which it's no longer worth it to continue charging (if you can make it to your next charger).

The Bolt EV has an average charge rate (as I've observed) of about 44 kW up to the 68% step down on 125 A chargers. To add the next 15-20% will drop that average rate down to the high 30 kWs.

In terms of the Model S 60, I'd recommend checking out some of Bjorn Nyland's videos. He's pretty much considered the expert on long-distance driving in various Tesla models.

It seems you are telling us we're doing it wrong and we're doing what we have to. I'm still enamored with the Bolt for round town useage or round trips of less than 200 miles. But over 200 miles, I think it's fair to let people know they should spend the night and L2 charge... that L3 charging is going to cost the same as if you got 20mpg. As I stated.... L2 charging at $1/hr works out to 70mpg, L2 at $15/hour works out to 20mpg.

Not doing it wrong, but you seemed to be missing some information and blaming the vehicles themselves for external conditions. Also, you were misrepresenting the costs a bit (I felt you were being a bit on the sensational side). I understand where you're coming from about not having choices of where and how long you needed to charge. I've been there. I drove my Bolt EV to and from Zion National Park from Ventura a year and a half ago on a two-day weekend, meaning two of the DCFC that are currently in place weren't there at the time (one 190+ mile gap to bridge between two DCFC and another 130 mile gap with +1,000' of net elevation increase). But I would never characterize that trip as representative of what to expect from the Bolt EV outside of those specific circumstances (i.e., the cost of a 20 mpg gas car).

The driver is free to decide with this information.

You say that, but that's not what you're doing. And that's why I responded. You've done the math, decided on the results, and now are saying others are "free to decide what to do with this information." But as any good math teacher would say, "Show your work." You've omitted so many numbers that it's really hard for anyone to know. You aren't providing data points; you're providing conclusions.

I make regular 500 mile trips in my Bolt EV. The price varies, but in my Bolt EV it costs me between $20 and $30 and 1.75 to 2 hours of charging time. So about 1.5 to 1.75 hours longer than if I took a gas car and only made one 15 minute stop for refueling. That is what you can expect when a reasonable (not great) 125 A DCFC infrastructure is in place. When >150 A charging goes in, my costs are likely to go up (probably $30 to $40 per trip), but my charging time is likely to be reduced to a more consistent 1.5 hours.

So no, my experiences don't allow me to agree that a Bolt EV shouldn't be driven more than 200 miles, or that the cost is the equivalent of a 20 mpg gas car.

 

[Raymondjram]

The Chevy Bolt was not designed for long distance traveling. To do that, take a bus, train, or plane which use much less energy per passenger mile than any ICE and most EVs. And take a break from driving!

 

[NewsCoulomb]

The Chevy Bolt was not designed for long distance traveling. To do that, take a bus, train, or plane which use much less energy per passenger mile than any ICE and most EVs. And take a break from driving!

The problem for me is, a bus, plane, or train still leaves me 100 miles from my destination, and I still typically have 150 to 200 miles of errands to run over the weekend. Unfortunately, that is the sad reality for most of America. If we had a high-speed rail system that didn't interact with ground traffic, that would be great. Hop on in Southern California and hop off 4 to 5 hours later in Northern California less than 20 miles from my final destination, and we'd be talking. Right now, that's not a reality.

 

[wesley]

The Chevy Bolt was not designed for long distance traveling. To do that, take a bus, train, or plane which use much less energy per passenger mile than any ICE and most EVs. And take a break from driving!

It's a matter of how much is considered to be a "long distance" and whether the charging infrastructure is sufficient enough. YMMV, literally.

I know I live in a relatively small country, but Bolt EV can and does reach all corners with a single charge, with actual observed drivable range of more than 400km (250mi). And there's always a DCFC available near the destination. In other words, it covers practically all long distance travel needs for me. For this particular definition of "long distance", Bolt EV fits the bill.

As for the public transit, high-speed rail network is fairly extensive and I use it all the time for business travels. 300km/h speed gets you to anywhere in the country within 2 hours. But traveling with a family of four gets pretty costly fast this way. It costs about twice as much compared to traveling by ICE, or about 40 times with EV.

 

[rgmichel]

The Chevy Bolt was not designed for long distance traveling. To do that, take a bus, train, or plane which use much less energy per passenger mile than any ICE and most EVs. And take a break from driving!

Local driving is "driving to and from work", "shopping", etc. Long distance driving is going beyond the range of the EV to the point that you need to charge away from home. Usually this is vacation travel. A big trip could be 300-450 miles per day for two or three days, so a 2000 mile round trip. Been there, done that. Nobody pretends that an EV is an airplane or a train.

 

[Dimitrij]

… ai4px's experiences and Dimitrij's opinions do not represent the actual capabilities of the Bolt in regards to long distance travel.

The Bolt is capable to travel long distance (= across the country) in the same way Leif Erikson's longship was capable of sailing between Europe and the Americas: with fair weather, unlimited time allowance, and a good deal of luck.

To simplify: the Bolt design is not optimized for coast-to-coast adventures in the US; this doesn't mean it's impossible to do that - only impractical.

There are still concerns about the coverage of public DCFC in middle America (heck, even in some parts of California),

I think a more accurate way to describe this would be, "There are no public DCFC in the middle of the US", like shown here:

 

[Dimitrij]

I know I live in a relatively small country, but Bolt EV can and does reach all corners with a single charge, with actual observed drivable range of more than 400km (250mi). And there's always a DCFC available near the destination. In other words, it covers practically all long distance travel needs for me. For this particular definition of "long distance", Bolt EV fits the bill.

Korea is indeed "small" geographically, comparing to the US, which makes a coast-to-coast trip a lot easier for people with range anxiety.

But it's also very densely populated (I think 10 times higher than the US). This means each DCFC - at least theoretically and on average - can serve 10 times more drivers, which further alleviates range anxiety.

Finally, I would guess Korea has a single, temperate climate zone, which means that typically you do not have to battle -20C in the winter or +40C in the summer, so the HVAC penalty is perhaps less than in the US.

To sum up: I have a feeling that Korean companies and Korean car market will be the ones to watch in the near future, as far as mass electrification of transportations. They already manufacture 2, perfectly normal and affordable long-range EV's (Kona and Niro), and it's good to remind ourselves that the beloved Bolt is essentially a GM Korea car, running on LG Chem underpinnings.