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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Saw this on reddit. Per post/pedestal 200 kW (eg. not shared).

https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/awzcir/first_public_tesla_v30_supercharger_station_goes/

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200kW is correct. [per post/pedestal -- see below]
All Model 3 battery chemistry will be able to handle this.
Total redesign from the current v2, which uses repurposed vehicle chargers. V3 is done from start using industrial inverters based from Power Packs.
Ideally meant for long distance only, will be deployed in far out places to bridge gaps (Forks,WA will be one of the first places in the NW completed).
Initially will not have liquid cooled cables in early release, but all v3 will eventually have liquid cooled cables.

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  • The liquid cooled cables will actually be much thinner than the current SC cables, the coolant pump is located in the base of the white SC stall where the current cable connects and is hung up (v3 can retrofit into existing v2 chargers), and while the cabinets can support 250kW max (so I suppose it would be possible to upgrade to 250kW in the future), the individual chargers will be max 200kW.
  • PV and Power Pack integration is a part of the design spec, but no required.
  • 40% better throughput performance compared to v2 per site
  • Thermal Foldback improvements over v2
  • v3 cabinets get 5 power stages at 70kW output per power stage for 350kW AC -> DC per v3 cabinet
  • v3 cabinet also houses 2x DC-DC modules per post yielding 100kWx2 for the 200kW deliverer per post
  • Any extra power (assuming the extra 50kW the cabinets can produce versus what the chargers are delivering if the cabinet is maxed, or if only partially maxed, any extra power) can be shared across cabinets. Since multiple cabinets will be at each site, this lessens if not removes the v2 "shared" power with linked chargers
  • Site master controller is 4G LTE for communication of all diagnostics (as well as the verify car and billing of power consumed) so better knowledge when a site has a problem - leading to more proactive fixing of sites with broken/mafunctioning chargers
  • The cost reduction will come from higher power conversion efficiency (96% for v3 versus 92% for v2), less harmonics, and no overvoltage sensitivity (though the cabinets are larger and heavier than v2), ultimately leading to an approximate 20% more customers served per dollar spent on power
  • Overall AC input is 438kVA, 526A
    • Can link up to 7 v3 cabinets per bus (or a block), which can also link to one Power Pack
    • Cabinets are on a shared DC radial configured bus of 880-1000
    • This is then pushed out to the chargers (posts) and DC 180-500v, 250kW max
Post:
Source: A friend who works/worked there.
I was told the new design will allow for no need to pair the stalls, cabinets can share power so there shouldn't be any more issues with less than max power.
 

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Someone had crunched the numbers and implied that the Model 3 LR will have a faster miles/minute rate than the Taycan. It may just be that the Model 3 having a bigger battery and/or better range/aero, can cover more miles faster than the Porsche, all things considered. I guess we'll know if a few days.
It would make sense to focus on California first as that 's where the congestion is the worst. This and the doubling of the superchargers and destinations chargers should alleviate a lot of the crowding. If the numbers are correct, it would be 20%-80% in 18 minutes for the Model 3.
 

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I find minutes for x percentage battery charging to be less useful info than minutes per range, or minutes per kWh. It's not impressive if a car can get a 50% charge in 10 minutes, and that equate to a 20 mile range.
Agree completely. I'll also add that how efficient you convert those kWh into miles also should be taken into consideration. That's why I have such an issue with Newcoloumbs comparison of using percent of battery as a metric for how quickly a car charges. A 24kWh Leaf will fill to 50% long before the Bolt will.
To convert the 20-80 in 18 to miles/minute would be about 11 miles/minute.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
... I'll also add that how efficient you convert those kWh into miles also should be taken into consideration.
One of the bullet points was even on efficiency.
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  • The cost reduction will come from higher power conversion efficiency (96% for v3 versus 92% for v2), less harmonics, and no overvoltage sensitivity (though the cabinets are larger and heavier than v2), ultimately leading to an approximate 20% more customers served per dollar spent on power
Miles added per minute also makes sense if you are looking at the number of miles between superchargers when traveling. I've seen 125 as a common number and you can visually see that by turning on the 'map options' circles in https://supercharge.info/map and setting the radius to 100 or 125.
 

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It definitely makes sense to roll these out first where :

- there are lots of Teslas

- it would have a large positive impact on inter-city driving (say, replacing existing 8- or 12- stall installations at least 40 miles from the largest mega-urban centre)

I would't be surprised to see the first dozen or so installs (locations) in the PNW (WA-OR-CA) and NE (MA-CT-NY-PA-MD-VA).
 

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So the V3 SC launching this week is only capable of 57% (200kW) of the already installed EA DC Fast Chargers that are 350kW? I thought Elon had teased something much faster than the currently being deployed CCS units?

Anyway, If true, I am impressed with the 96% conversion efficiency number though. I assume that since they are careful to state "conversion efficiency" that efficiency statement neglects cable, connector, delivery, and pack charging losses.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
So the V3 SC launching this week is only capable of 57% (200kW) of the already installed EA DC Fast Chargers that are 350kW? I thought Elon had teased something much faster than the currently being deployed CCS units?
It seems your are misrepresenting. See three sources below. CTO being one them.

Conference call:
http://ir.tesla.com/static-files/0b913415-467d-4c0d-be4c-9225c2cb0ae0
In Q4, we opened 69 new Supercharger locations for a total of 1,421 Supercharger stations globally. In 2018, we opened 293 Supercharger locations, many of which have 20 to 50 stalls per location. To date, we have approximately 12,000 dedicated Supercharging connectors and over 21,000 Destination Charging connectors globally. In addition to our continued investment in global charging infrastructure, our engineering team is finalizing plans for the rollout of our V3 Supercharger technology early this year, which will enable significantly faster charge times. We anticipate V3 to not only provide a better customer experience for Tesla vehicle owners, but to also significantly lower Tesla’s operational and capital expenditures.
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-supercharger-v3-first-details/

According to Musk, Tesla will introduce an improved version of its Superchargers, though they would not be along the same specs as Porsche’s 350 kW stations.

“We’re definitely going to be improving our Supercharger’s technology. The thing about a 350 kW charger is that it doesn’t actually make a ton of sense, unless you got a monster battery pack or have like a crazy high C rating… We think 350 kW for a single car; you’re gonna frag the battery pack if you do that. You cannot charge a high-energy battery pack at that rate, unless it’s a very high kW battery pack. So, (for us), something along the couple of hundred, 200-250 kW, maybe.”
Musk’s statements were backed up with an explanation from Tesla CTO JB Straubel, who noted that the levels of power for Supercharger V3 involve a considerable amount of balancing. Straubel further stated that Tesla could make a 300-400 kW Supercharger, but such a system would not be a useful tradeoff for the company’s consumer base.

“That’s definitely sort of the power level that we’ve discussed and explored. Some of it also comes down to an optimization around utility versus cost, and tradeoffs in the car itself. There is a tradeoff, fundamentally, between charge speed and essentially range, and cost of the battery. We look at that pretty carefully. We understand the tradeoff. We could design cells and a pack that could charge at, you know, faster than 300-400 kW, but it’s not a very useful tradeoff to the customer.”
Elon Musk also provided a real-world explanation that differentiates Tesla’s Supercharger V3 to Porsche’s 350 kW IONITY network.

“Energy is range, and power is your peak acceleration, the rate in which you consume energy. It’s more important to have long range than it is to have a super fast charge time. You can sort of think about this in the devices that you use. Would you rather have a cellphone that charges in 5 minutes or 10 minutes, but only lasted 2 hours. Or, if you’d like a cellphone that can last two days, and maybe takes an hour to charge?”
 

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Someone had crunched the numbers and implied that the Model 3 LR will have a faster miles/minute rate than the Taycan. It may just be that the Model 3 having a bigger battery and/or better range/aero, can cover more miles faster than the Porsche, all things considered. I guess we'll know if a few days.
That's a bit premature given:
  • We don't know how efficient the Taycan is (though it's doubtful that it will be as efficient as the Model 3 or that Taycan owners will care).
  • The Audi e-Tron (a Taycan cousin) charges at its max rate until 85% to 90%.
  • The Model 3 isn't maxing out the current Superchargers (120 kW) after ~55%.
My guess is that the Model 3 will max out at 190 kW to 200 kW somewhere between 40% and 45%, and it will start its taper at that point. While that's an excellent charge rate, it does have its limitations. For fastest trip times, you still need to make shorter, more frequent stops, which many people still find to be an inconvenience.

Basically, the question is, on a long road trip, which would you rather have:
A) An EV that only gets 3.5 mi/kWh, but can charge from 0% to 85% at 200 kW.
B) An EV that gets 4 mi/kWh, but can only charge from 10% to 45% at 200 kW.

On a completely unrelated note, I'd be pissed if I was a European Model 3 owner who had their charge rates restricted on CCS just so Tesla could do this promotional stunt first. I bet all the issues Bjorn has been having charging the Model 3 on CCS will miraculously go away after V3 is unveiled in the United States.
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)

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250 kW per software update information
Let's hope so, but I don't see how that will change the charging curve. It would just be steeper than I was anticipating. Perhaps it will be 250 kW at sub 30% and ramp down even faster. We'll have to see if the Model 3 can actually pull 740 A of current.
 

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So it looks like they are claiming a peak rate of 256 kW, but it's not apparent how long that lasts. And 75 miles added in 5 minutes, or 1,000 mi/hr in Tesla speak.
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
https://www.tesla.com/blog/introducing-v3-supercharging

Faster Charging, No More Power Sharing
V3 is a completely new architecture for Supercharging. A new 1MW power cabinet with a similar design to our utility-scale products supports peak rates of up to 250kW per car.

At this rate, a Model 3 Long Range operating at peak efficiency can recover
up to 75 miles of charge in 5 minutes and charge at rates of up to 1,000 miles per hour.


Combined with other improvements we’re announcing today, V3 Supercharging will ultimately cut the amount of time customers spend charging by an average of 50%, as modeled on our fleet data.

Supercharger stations with V3’s new power electronics are designed to enable any owner to charge at the full power their battery can take – no more splitting power with a vehicle in the stall next to you. With these significant technical improvements, we anticipate the typical charging time at a V3 Supercharger will drop to around 15 minutes.

On-Route Battery Warmup
New Supercharging infrastructure isn’t the only way we are improving our customers’ charging experience. Beginning this week, Tesla is rolling out a new feature called On-Route Battery Warmup. Now, whenever you navigate to a Supercharger station, your vehicle will intelligently heat the battery to ensure you arrive at the optimal temperature to charge, reducing average charge times for owners by 25%.

This combination of higher peak power with V3, dedicated vehicle power allocation across Supercharger sites, and On-Route Battery Warmup enables customers to charge in half the time and Tesla to serve more than twice the number of customers per hour.

Additionally, we are also unlocking 145kW charge rates for our 12,000+ V2 Superchargers over the coming weeks.


Video:
 

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So it looks like it's still going to be finicky, and it's going to have a fairly dramatic curve. At ~30% with an unconditioned battery, it looks like the Model 3 is only pulling ~150 kW, and the rate drops to below 100 kW by 60% to 65%.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
So it looks like it's still going to be finicky, and it's going to have a fairly dramatic curve. At ~30% with an unconditioned battery, it looks like the Model 3 is only pulling ~150 kW, and the rate drops to below 100 kW by 60% to 65%.
What about a battery that is conditioned? i.e. a roadtrip and the cars navigation has you stopping at superchargers along the route.

That is: "Now, whenever you navigate to a Supercharger station, your vehicle will intelligently heat the battery to ensure you arrive at the optimal temperature to charge, reducing average charge times for owners by 25%."
 

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What about a battery that is conditioned? i.e. a roadtrip and the cars navigation has you stopping at superchargers along the route.

That is: "Now, whenever you navigate to a Supercharger station, your vehicle will intelligently heat the battery to ensure you arrive at the optimal temperature to charge, reducing average charge times for owners by 25%."
That's why I mentioned it. It looks like the charging rates aren't quite that straightforward.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
That's why I mentioned it. It looks like the charging rates aren't quite that straightforward.
I was asking because you gave estimates at different SOCs for unconditioned. What about giving estimates for conditioned like would happen on roadtrips?
So it looks like it's still going to be finicky, and it's going to have a fairly dramatic curve. At ~30% with an unconditioned battery, it looks like the Model 3 is only pulling ~150 kW, and the rate drops to below 100 kW by 60% to 65%.
 

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That's a bit premature given:
  • We don't know how efficient the Taycan is (though it's doubtful that it will be as efficient as the Model 3 or that Taycan owners will care).
  • The Audi e-Tron (a Taycan cousin) charges at its max rate until 85% to 90%.
  • The Model 3 isn't maxing out the current Superchargers (120 kW) after ~55%.
My guess is that the Model 3 will max out at 190 kW to 200 kW somewhere between 40% and 45%, and it will start its taper at that point. While that's an excellent charge rate, it does have its limitations. For fastest trip times, you still need to make shorter, more frequent stops, which many people still find to be an inconvenience.

Basically, the question is, on a long road trip, which would you rather have:
A) An EV that only gets 3.5 mi/kWh, but can charge from 0% to 85% at 200 kW.
B) An EV that gets 4 mi/kWh, but can only charge from 10% to 45% at 200 kW.

On a completely unrelated note, I'd be pissed if I was a European Model 3 owner who had their charge rates restricted on CCS just so Tesla could do this promotional stunt first. I bet all the issues Bjorn has been having charging the Model 3 on CCS will miraculously go away after V3 is unveiled in the United States.

I haven't really studied the new info on V3 but from glossing over cbscott's data, I didn't see where the taper will be. It's adjustable based on what Tesla feels the battery can handle so do we know for a fact that it hasn't changed. Furthermore, I think you were trying to paint the Model 3 as the weaker of the two compared to the Taycan regarding trip times when the data seems to contradict your position.
If the Model 3 has more range (325 miles using the EPA whereas the Taycan is 310 using the NEDC (When it comes to range, the Taycan will aim for 310 miles, or 500 kilometers, in the European cycle) which is grossly optimistic, it shows the Bolt at 323 miles e.g.) and it's more efficient, the Taycan will be stopping more often (61%, 5 stops vs 3 stops).
Using the NEDC numbers of the Bolt, I calculate the Taycan at 228 miles range EPA, add in 87% as efficient at 70mph as the Model 3 puts it at relatively 200 miles vs 325. Do you have legitimate EPA numbers and efficiency for the Taycan? Can you even buy a Taycan today?
https://autoweek.com/article/luxury/porsche-taycan-specs-confirmed-600-hp-310-mile-range
Who's to say that when you can buy the Taycan, the Model 3 wouldn't be even better. You're comparing what we have available today to something that is being promised for the future. No different that trying to compare the $35k Model 3 to the $43k Bolt. It wasn't allowed until you could buy one.
Until we know for certain what the taper point and percentages of the Model 3 are now, you're guessing is just that.
 

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I was asking because you gave estimates at different SOCs for unconditioned. What about giving estimates for conditioned like would happen on roadtrips?
I don't think it would change for the higher SOC. If you want to know how long your Model 3 will charge at faster speeds on V3, simply look at where your current charge slips below 119 to 120 kW. At that point, the charge rates should be identical between the current Supercharger standard and V3. So 60% to 65% SOC will still be charging below 100 kW as it is today.

The question is the 150 kW charging rate at 30%. Personally, I doubt that the Model 3 will be able to sustain the peak speed that long, but maybe. I'm guessing a conditioned battery might still see 200 kW at 30%, but the rate would probably be dropping rapidly. The charging curve will probably look like:
  • 0% to 10%: The same as it does today on current Superchargers. Low speeds, maybe averaging around 50 kW.
  • 10% to 20%: 250 kW
  • 20% to 30%: 200-250 kW
  • 30% to 40%: 150-200 kW
  • 40% to 50%: 120-150 kW
  • 50% to 60%: 100-120 kW
  • 60% and greater: The same as it is on current Superchargers.
For the Model 3 MR, shift the speeds down about 15%.

For the Model 3 SR, shift the speeds down about 30%.
 
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