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I think this video provides a very good overview of what a typical long distance (North Carolina-Vegas) trip in a Tesla using Superchargers is like.


Some of the key points to note:
  • It's a Model 3 Performance
  • A variety of weather and conditions including wet, rainy, cold, hot, windy.
  • Different Superchargers with a mix of:
    • Vintage V2 that maxes at a little over 100kW (probably one of the first to be upgraded to V3)
    • Pull through Superchargers
    • Superchargers in parking garage
    • How much inconveniences you may or may not encounter e.g. detours
    • Amenities at Superchargers
    • Supercharger layouts
  • High speed runs at 95 mph
  • Very casual, leisurely trip-no barnstorming or cannonballing
  • How to find a destination charger and charging speed (6% to 100% in 8 hours)
  • How the navigation routes the most efficient charging time. (He charges almost to 80% once that I saw)
  • Efficiency under various driving styles (95 mph leg) and conditions. At 85-90 mph he averaged 342 watt hours/mile
One thing to note which has been debated a lot here is that there is absolutely no reason to charge more than 50% using just Superchargers with the LR Model 3. At some stops he overcharges by double what he needs mostly because he gets distracted for a few minutes.
Due to the convenience and locations, he rarely is wasting a lot of slop time by charging more frequently than if he charged to 80% instead of 50% He also explains where it makes sense to skip chargers and when it makes more sense to stop.
On the stop where he charged from 18% to 78%, he added 45 kWh in half and hour so this gives some V2 charging data vs V3.
V3 would have added 180 miles in 24 minutes vs. 160 miles in 30 minutes.

On his second leg, he does 900 miles starting his day at 9:00 AM without any stress, drama, worry's, or phone calls. Without getting into too much detail, it looks as though his average charge time was about 20 minutes.

There's also much made about average charge rate vs peak charge rate. So to approach this scenario using that metric, and using the table of the V3 chargers, to 80% it works out to 125kW. As noted above and based on my own experience, it's extremely rare to charge to 80% on the road. Using 50% as the typical charging cap, the average works out to be 176 kW which adds 150 miles.
Let's use that to compare with the 210 mile AWD Mach e since that's the closest in spec and battery size and assume they have the 100 kW flat charge curve to 80%. This will give the Mach e less stops than the Tesla so should do well.

The only assumptions we have to make is slop time and Mach e flat charge curve. To give the Mach e a little help, let's use 15 minutes and we've agreed before that 100 kW is reasonable. This fictitious trip assumes when the Tesla gets to 50% there will be a functioning Supercharger and when the Mach e gets to 80, there will be a functioning public charger. No phone calls, no fail to charge, no moving to another cabinet, no sharing, no icing, etc.
To make things easier, I'll use the flat charge average for the Model 3 calculated above at 176 kW.
Here's the math on the Tesla:
2%-12%: 250 kW
12%-20%: 244 kW
20%-50%: 134 kW
This works out to be 2,500 + 1,952 + 4,020 = 8,472/48% (starts at 2%)=176.5 kW average to 50%
To get to 50% takes about 11 1/2 minutes so the total stop is 11.5 + 15 = 26.5 minutes for +150 miles

For the Mach e, 100kW into a 70 kWh battery will get to 80% in a little over 33 minutes. (70 kWh * .8 =.56 of an hour.) This adds 168 miles.
So rather that do a bunch of stops and adding up all the time driving and stopping and charging, it's easier to just calculate how many miles per minute does each car add, INCLUDING the charging and slop time. Here's the results:
Model 3 adds 150 miles in 26.5 minutes which is 5.6 miles per minute​
Mach e adds 168 miles in 33 minutes which is 4.8 miles per minute​
Now if you look at the flat charging rate average for the Tesla to 80%, you will see that it's already higher than the Mach e. 125kW vs 100 kW. So there's really no point in belaboring this point any further.

UNLESS

You want to use the bigger Mach e battery spec. That would mean we should use the closest Tesla to that spec which is the Model S Raven with 404 miles of EPA range.
Let me know if we need to crunch those numbers too.

I really can't think of any possible condition where the Mach e with similar specs will have a faster charge rate per minute overall for any conceivable trip you can dream up. Keep in mind, in the real world, we know the public chargers are undependable and a hassle so I'm looking forward to the side by side. Let's do one from Chicago to Dallas. Anywhere but California.

Notice too that I'm not using any EPA estimates for the Tesla (that's all we have for the Mach e), it's actual data. But I'll give you a concession that could help the Mach e and that is the V2 Superchargers aren't as fast as the V3 used in this comparison. Depending on when the Mach e is available, the number of V3's may be but a small percentage of Superchargers. But I'm not worried cause we're also comparing it to the public network.
 

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Discussion Starter #102
I think this video provides a very good overview of what a typical long distance (North Carolina-Vegas) trip in a Tesla using Superchargers is like.


Some of the key points to note:
  • It's a Model 3 Performance
  • A variety of weather and conditions including wet, rainy, cold, hot, windy.
  • Different Superchargers with a mix of:
    • Vintage V2 that maxes at a little over 100kW (probably one of the first to be upgraded to V3)
    • Pull through Superchargers
    • Superchargers in parking garage
    • How much inconveniences you may or may not encounter e.g. detours
    • Amenities at Superchargers
    • Supercharger layouts
  • High speed runs at 95 mph
  • Very casual, leisurely trip-no barnstorming or cannonballing
  • How to find a destination charger and charging speed (6% to 100% in 8 hours)
  • How the navigation routes the most efficient charging time. (He charges almost to 80% once that I saw)
  • Efficiency under various driving styles (95 mph leg) and conditions. At 85-90 mph he averaged 342 watt hours/mile
One thing to note which has been debated a lot here is that there is absolutely no reason to charge more than 50% using just Superchargers with the LR Model 3. At some stops he overcharges by double what he needs mostly because he gets distracted for a few minutes.
Due to the convenience and locations, he rarely is wasting a lot of slop time by charging more frequently than if he charged to 80% instead of 50% He also explains where it makes sense to skip chargers and when it makes more sense to stop.
On the stop where he charged from 18% to 78%, he added 45 kWh in half and hour so this gives some V2 charging data vs V3.
V3 would have added 180 miles in 24 minutes vs. 160 miles in 30 minutes.

On his second leg, he does 900 miles starting his day at 9:00 AM without any stress, drama, worry's, or phone calls. Without getting into too much detail, it looks as though his average charge time was about 20 minutes.

There's also much made about average charge rate vs peak charge rate. So to approach this scenario using that metric, and using the table of the V3 chargers, to 80% it works out to 125kW. As noted above and based on my own experience, it's extremely rare to charge to 80% on the road. Using 50% as the typical charging cap, the average works out to be 176 kW which adds 150 miles.
Let's use that to compare with the 210 mile AWD Mach e since that's the closest in spec and battery size and assume they have the 100 kW flat charge curve to 80%. This will give the Mach e less stops than the Tesla so should do well.

The only assumptions we have to make is slop time and Mach e flat charge curve. To give the Mach e a little help, let's use 15 minutes and we've agreed before that 100 kW is reasonable. This fictitious trip assumes when the Tesla gets to 50% there will be a functioning Supercharger and when the Mach e gets to 80, there will be a functioning public charger. No phone calls, no fail to charge, no moving to another cabinet, no sharing, no icing, etc.
To make things easier, I'll use the flat charge average for the Model 3 calculated above at 176 kW.
Here's the math on the Tesla:
2%-12%: 250 kW
12%-20%: 244 kW
20%-50%: 134 kW
This works out to be 2,500 + 1,952 + 4,020 = 8,472/48% (starts at 2%)=176.5 kW average to 50%
To get to 50% takes about 11 1/2 minutes so the total stop is 11.5 + 15 = 26.5 minutes for +150 miles

For the Mach e, 100kW into a 70 kWh battery will get to 80% in a little over 33 minutes. (70 kWh * .8 =.56 of an hour.) This adds 168 miles.
So rather that do a bunch of stops and adding up all the time driving and stopping and charging, it's easier to just calculate how many miles per minute does each car add, INCLUDING the charging and slop time. Here's the results:
Model 3 adds 150 miles in 26.5 minutes which is 5.6 miles per minute​
Mach e adds 168 miles in 33 minutes which is 4.8 miles per minute​
Now if you look at the flat charging rate average for the Tesla to 80%, you will see that it's already higher than the Mach e. 125kW vs 100 kW. So there's really no point in belaboring this point any further.

UNLESS

You want to use the bigger Mach e battery spec. That would mean we should use the closest Tesla to that spec which is the Model S Raven with 404 miles of EPA range.
Let me know if we need to crunch those numbers too.

I really can't think of any possible condition where the Mach e with similar specs will have a faster charge rate per minute overall for any conceivable trip you can dream up. Keep in mind, in the real world, we know the public chargers are undependable and a hassle so I'm looking forward to the side by side. Let's do one from Chicago to Dallas. Anywhere but California.

Notice too that I'm not using any EPA estimates for the Tesla (that's all we have for the Mach e), it's actual data. But I'll give you a concession that could help the Mach e and that is the V2 Superchargers aren't as fast as the V3 used in this comparison. Depending on when the Mach e is available, the number of V3's may be but a small percentage of Superchargers. But I'm not worried cause we're also comparing it to the public network.
That's a very substantial post that might be more appropriate for a different thread. However, bringing it back to the topic of this thread, how do you think a 400-mile GM EV with an Ultium pack capable of charging from 10% to 90% in 15 minutes would fit into your calculations for a trip from North Carolina to Las Vegas?
 

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Probably another deserve its own thread- Nissan no longer even using Chademo US and Europe- bringing a question relating to the Ultium topic at hand would GM even allow Chademo or some other standard as part of licence of the battery tech to other companies?
 

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Discussion Starter #104
Probably another deserve its own thread- Nissan no longer even using Chademo US and Europe- bringing a question relating to the Ultium topic at hand would GM even allow Chademo or some other standard as part of licence of the battery tech to other companies?
As far as I know, it wouldn't or shouldn't matter. GM is also a global company, and Honda is one of the companies that is licensing their Ultium technology. Now, it could be that Honda only wants these batteries for cars in North America and Europe; however, it's far more likely that they would also use the technology in Japan and Asia. If so, CHAdeMO is basically a requirement. Because CHAdeMO communicates on the CAN bus, it would integrate fairly easily into an EV with an Ultium battery.
 

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would GM even allow Chademo or some other standard as part of licence of the battery tech to other companies?
Why would they care what kind of plug the DC charge inlet has? The car manufacturer is responsible for the computer that does the handshake with the charger. The battery is charge plug agnostic. Electrons are electrons. GM may spec the maximum charge rate, and/or taper as part of a license agreement to assure the battery is not abused, but the plug standard is meaningless.
 

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That's a very substantial post that might be more appropriate for a different thread. However, bringing it back to the topic of this thread, how do you think a 400-mile GM EV with an Ultium pack capable of charging from 10% to 90% in 15 minutes would fit into your calculations for a trip from North Carolina to Las Vegas?
The only way to know is to video the trip. When do you think you'll have one to test?
Here's another video by the same guy on a shorter Florida trip done a few days ago. It's the first leg of a circumnavigate the US trip so should give an good idea of how the Superchargers function in all corners of the US. North Dakota should be interesting.


He does a good job explaining the various conditions and charging speeds of the superchargers (V2 vs V3) and why he charges for as long as he does. At one point he mentions that he needs a relatively long session for him and will charge for about 30 minutes. This adds 51 kWh and went from 7%-79%.

He's written a few articles about the V3 and mentions that it's biggest advantage is really only from 0-35% after which it's not much faster than V2. His second stop at Hardeeville, SC. is on a V3 so you can see real world experiences using Tesla's most powerful chargers to date (until the MegaChargers come out).
This stop gives an insight too about the charging strategy to minimize charging time. The nav recommends he charge for an additional 20 minutes to make it to his planned next stop but at just over 100kW, it makes more sense to revise the stop to the next closest Supercharger. The reason that adding or prematurely stopping actually is more efficient due to:
  • The higher charging peak at the lower battery charge
  • The convenience of the Superchargers locations which might typically add 5-7 minutes of slop time. It would be nice if he actually timed it from exit to Supercharger and from Supercharger to back on the highway
I am going to Cape Cod this weekend and I may run this experiment (actual slop time) and report back to give more factual data on this. It could be more, it could be less. Unfortunately, the trip from Albany to Brewster can be made non-stop so I'll only have two opportunities to charge on this 516 mile round trip. I will pass by 9 Superchargers to get there and I would bet my TSLA shares that I could stop at any one of them and have 0 issues plugging in and charging first time in 5 seconds upon arrival.

29896


He discusses the advantages of pulling in with a low charge which he routinely is in single digits. This is fairly typical for any experienced Tesla owner. There's very few areas of the US where you would need/want to plug in above 40%.

For his V3 session, he added 41 kW in 16 minutes going from 6%-62%.

If the mods find it necessary to move these to another thread, that would be appreciated. Comparing Supercharger experiences with Public Charging should be it's own thread.
 

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Discussion Starter #107
The only way to know is to video the trip. When do you think you'll have one to test?
Here's another video by the same guy on a shorter Florida trip done a few days ago. It's the first leg of a circumnavigate the US trip so should give an good idea of how the Superchargers function in all corners of the US. North Dakota should be interesting.


He does a good job explaining the various conditions and charging speeds of the superchargers (V2 vs V3) and why he charges for as long as he does. At one point he mentions that he needs a relatively long session for him and will charge for about 30 minutes. This adds 51 kWh and went from 7%-79%.

He's written a few articles about the V3 and mentions that it's biggest advantage is really only from 0-35% after which it's not much faster than V2. His second stop at Hardeeville, SC. is on a V3 so you can see real world experiences using Tesla's most powerful chargers to date (until the MegaChargers come out).
This stop gives an insight too about the charging strategy to minimize charging time. The nav recommends he charge for an additional 20 minutes to make it to his planned next stop but at just over 100kW, it makes more sense to revise the stop to the next closest Supercharger. The reason that adding or prematurely stopping actually is more efficient due to:
  • The higher charging peak at the lower battery charge
  • The convenience of the Superchargers locations which might typically add 5-7 minutes of slop time. It would be nice if he actually timed it from exit to Supercharger and from Supercharger to back on the highway
I am going to Cape Cod this weekend and I may run this experiment (actual slop time) and report back to give more factual data on this. It could be more, it could be less. Unfortunately, the trip from Albany to Brewster can be made non-stop so I'll only have two opportunities to charge on this 516 mile round trip. I will pass by 9 Superchargers to get there and I would bet my TSLA shares that I could stop at any one of them and have 0 issues plugging in and charging first time in 5 seconds upon arrival.

View attachment 29896

He discusses the advantages of pulling in with a low charge which he routinely is in single digits. This is fairly typical for any experienced Tesla owner. There's very few areas of the US where you would need/want to plug in above 40%.

For his V3 session, he added 41 kW in 16 minutes going from 6%-62%.

If the mods find it necessary to move these to another thread, that would be appreciated. Comparing Supercharger experiences with Public Charging should be it's own thread.
So then, everything you're posting here is off topic? Cool. I wonder which non-GM car brand you're principally pushing? :unsure:
 

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Discussion Starter #109
Yes, it has morphed into OT, all my fault.
My intent is to help someone avoid making a $50k mistake based on biased and bad information. I don't care what they buy as long as they know what's true.
Well, this is a Bolt EV forum, so that might be a $35,000 mistake... Unless you're also referring to another brand. :unsure::ROFLMAO:

In all seriousness, though, this thread was specifically discussing the Ultium battery technology, which doesn't have an analog in terms of charging speed, energy density, or range at the moment. So while a trip in a Model 3 using the 250 kW V3 Supercharging could give an inkling of what future Ultium EV owners can expect, it's only partially relevant when discussing the Model 3's peak charging speeds.

That trip from NC to Vegas shows just how tethered even Tesla owners still are to the charging infrastructure at this point, where traveling across country requires route planning and a majority (if not all) of the stops to be made at a charging location (the opportunity cost of stopping elsewhere is just too great). Having 400 miles of real-world range and the ability to add 80% capacity in 15 minutes means an Ultium EV owner can simply drive toward their destination, stop when they feel like stopping, eat where they feel like eating, and start looking for a charger when they hit maybe 25% battery. At that point, they plug in for 10 to 15 minutes (whatever is convenient). Maybe they use the bathroom and grab a snack. Maybe they don't. And then they are back on the road again. Essentially driving all day with one or maybe two refueling stops and a lot of choices and options.

I'm the first to say that road trips in EVs can work as long as you go in with the right knowledge, understanding, and (most importantly) expectations; however, when I do my trip reports, it's not to tell people that the should be traveling in EVs, but rather to show them the reality of traveling in an EV. I hate to say it, but all the negativity I see blasted at Bolt EV owners for the way they travel also applies to Tesla, even with their Supercharger Network. While traveling in a Tesla is incrementally faster and more convenient than traveling in a Bolt EV and most other non-Tesla EVs, that video trip looked at from the perspective of an ICE owner is extremely limiting and restrictive. GM is looking to address that through their Ultium battery, and I think that's something that needs to be acknowledged and encouraged.
 

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Well if you want to have a serious discussion about vaporware, let's throw the new 3,650 mile battery that Tesla is developing into the ring.


Then charging isn't even a consideration on a cross-country trip.

Last year, we reported on the team patenting an “anode-free lithium-metal cell” for Tesla that they suggested could be the next big thing in battery tech instead of solid-state batteries.

They are still working on the new cells as evidenced by a new patent application Dahn’s team for Tesla’s Canadian research group: “Electrolytes with Lithium Difluoro(oxalato)borate and Lithium Tetrafluoroborate Salts for Lithium-metal and Anode-Free Battery Cells.”


A battery density of 2,600 watt hours/Kg during testing with up to 50 cycles.
 

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Discussion Starter #111
Well if you want to have a serious discussion about vaporware, let's throw the new 3,650 mile battery that Tesla is developing into the ring.


Then charging isn't even a consideration on a cross-country trip.

Last year, we reported on the team patenting an “anode-free lithium-metal cell” for Tesla that they suggested could be the next big thing in battery tech instead of solid-state batteries.

They are still working on the new cells as evidenced by a new patent application Dahn’s team for Tesla’s Canadian research group: “Electrolytes with Lithium Difluoro(oxalato)borate and Lithium Tetrafluoroborate Salts for Lithium-metal and Anode-Free Battery Cells.”


A battery density of 2,600 watt hours/Kg during testing with up to 50 cycles.
Yup. I'm aware of that video. On the spectrum of "vaporware," where do you think a 2.6 kWh/kg battery stands?

For what it's worth, Tesla isn't the only one working on technology like this. Here is a battery that's designed to replace the traditional anode with a carbon nanotube structure. Quite nifty:

.
 

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Discussion Starter #113
Sweet! Thanks for the link! A few things that jumped out at me:
  • The "attainable luxury" EV like the XT4... I thought that was the Lyriq. I guess not?
  • The second GMC EV on the BT1 platform will be another SUV, not a truck (the GMC Sierra EV?).
  • Their 400-mile EV truck will be under the Chevrolet brand. Wow. Could we see a sub $40,000 EV work truck sooner than we thought?
  • I didn't realize that Cruise Origin was part of GM's partnership with Honda (that partnership is turning out to me more interesting than I first thought -- perhaps Honda is why GM has been really light on plans for an EV sedan?).
 

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GM battery plant being built...

 
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