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Discussion Starter #1


Japan’s big 3 (Nissan, Toyota, and Honda) may be supporting hydrogen fueled cars but it’s going to lag behind electric vehicles in the foreseeable future.

Why?

Because hydrogen fuel just comes up short in comparison. The University of Michigan Transportation Research Institute(UMTRI) published a short snippet titled “The Relative Merits of Battery-Electric Vehicles and Fuel-Cell Vehicles” and even though the authors do see some merit in Fuel Cell Vehicles (FCV), electric Vehicles (EV) still sounds like the better option.

Battery-Electric Vehicles (BEV):


• Accessible charging stations
• More BEV models are available
• Best fuel economy
• Produce the lowest amount of greenhouse gases per mile

Sure the overall drive range is shorter than other types of vehicles and it takes time to charge the battery but this is improving in leaps and bound.

Fuel Cell Vehicles (FCV):

• Limited models
• Underdeveloped hydrogen-refueling infrastructure
• Requires liquid hydrogen and it’s produced using fossil fuels

There are two ways to produce the hydrogen that you pump into your car.

One method is through natural gas steam reformation where factories need to use high temperatures and pressure to break the gas into hydrogen and carbon oxide. This method accounts for the majority of hydrogen produce in the United States but that energy used in production come from fossil fuels.

The second method is electrolysis where an electric current is run through water in order to split it into hydrogen and oxygen. Why not produce hydrogen using this method only? Because that electricity still generated from non-renewable resources, you may as well just directly charge an EV with it. Once made, hydrogen needs to be cooled and stored in pressurized containers which requires even more energy.

My conclusion? Electric vehicles are better for the environmentally conscious. Your thoughts? And feel free to disagree with me.
 

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Hmm, too bad everything is going to use some form of fossil fuels for the electricity generation. Some of the cons to hydrogen are not about hydrogen itself, it is just a matter of development.
 

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Hydrogen is best used as rocket fuel, so NASA, ESA, JAXA, and the Russian and the Chinese space agencies are its major users. But if you could read a NASA guidebook on handling hydrogen fuel, you will see how dangerous a Fuel Cell vehicle will be. At the owner level, fueling such a vehicle involves two connectors, one for vehicle-to-pump communications (electrical) and one for the gas itself. It is complex for the layperson, so a H2 station will need someone to do the fueling if you don't understand the details.

BTW, I own the 2008 Chevy Equinox Fuel Cell Owner Manual and the fueling is a full chapter long. I bought it here:
http://www.helminc.com/helm/product2.asp?Make=CHV&Model=EQUI&Year=2008&Category=&class_2=CHV&mk=Chevrolet+&+Geo&yr=2008&md=Equinox&dt=&module=&from=result&Style=helm&Sku=1X264361C&itemtype=N

Gasoline fuel is simpler, but electric charging is the most simple that even a child can do it. And electric charging can even be WIRELESS using resonant charging (Nikola Tesla's greatest invention) similar to wireless charging for smartphones and watches, so a BEV owner will just drive and park over a transmitter on the floor, aligning the BEV's receiver over it, and let the BEV do all the work overnight or at a special parking location. Hands-free, weatherproof (charges even through a layer of snow or ice), and idiotproof.

No other form of "refueling" can be simpler!
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Lol, just read a guide on fueling a Hydrogen Equinox and it's a multi-step process. Plenty of space for errors and it takes a while too depending on the fueling station's PSI, half an hour at a 10,000-psi hydrogen fueling station.
 

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I/m sure its not that bad once you get used to it. If the standard is gas or electricity, almost everything seems more complicated.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
It's not just refueling complication but other variables as well.
Electricity is just more streamlined and no special vehicle is needed to transport it from one location to another.

What's cool is that you can get electricity from anywhere if production is a concern, even on a highway you can install a few solar panels.

Korea:

 

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Infrastructure is key, costly at first and scarce but it is the way to go. Good time to invest in some solar companies.
 

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As a follow up on my post, I searched and found the Chevy Equinox Fuel Cell Owner manual again, so I am open to any questions about its contents. As an example, the fueling material covers part of chapter 5, pages 5-3 to 5-6. The last "CAUTION" flag is the most intriguing:

"If a fire starts while you are refueling, do not remove the nozzle. Shut off the flow of fuel by shutting off the pump or by notifying the station attendant. Leave the area immediately."

I would run away IMMEDIATELY!!

The documentation also includes a small pamplet labelled : Emergency Response Quick Reference* so if your Fuel Cell Equinox does catch fire, you can let the firemen read it and see how to "respond" while your vehicle (and the hydrogen station) is burning. Most of it shows the location of the fuel cell components (driver side, passenger side, and underside which is useful if the vehicle has flipped on its side), then shows how to disable the propulsion system, 12 V power, and the high voltage electrical system (this does have a HV battery and an electric motor). The last page shows the "Do NOT Cut Zones" where the hydrogen lines and HV electric wires run through the body structure.

* This asterisk means "For more information consult the Chevrolet Equinox Fuel Cell Emergency Response Guide at www.gmstc.com". The actual link is https://www.gmstc.com/FirstResponder.aspx where anyone can download the complete guide as a PDF. Enjoy the reading as a possible horror story for future Hydrogen Fuel Cell vehicles!

With over eight years of experience in Fuel Cell vehicles, GM did the correct step by not continuing this path and go directly to the EREV Volt and the BEV Bolt EV. Now do you think Toyota (with the Mirai) can do better than GM?
 

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As a follow up on my post, I searched and found the Chevy Equinox Fuel Cell Owner manual again, so I am open to any questions about its contents. As an example, the fueling material covers part of chapter 5, pages 5-3 to 5-6. The last "CAUTION" flag is the most intriguing:

"If a fire starts while you are refueling, do not remove the nozzle. Shut off the flow of fuel by shutting off the pump or by notifying the station attendant. Leave the area immediately."

I would run away IMMEDIATELY!!

The documentation also includes a small pamplet labelled : Emergency Response Quick Reference* so if your Fuel Cell Equinox does catch fire, you can let the firemen read it and see how to "respond" while your vehicle (and the hydrogen station) is burning. Most of it shows the location of the fuel cell components (driver side, passenger side, and underside which is useful if the vehicle has flipped on its side), then shows how to disable the propulsion system, 12 V power, and the high voltage electrical system (this does have a HV battery and an electric motor). The last page shows the "Do NOT Cut Zones" where the hydrogen lines and HV electric wires run through the body structure.

* This asterisk means "For more information consult the Chevrolet Equinox Fuel Cell Emergency Response Guide at www.gmstc.com". The actual link is https://www.gmstc.com/FirstResponder.aspx where anyone can download the complete guide as a PDF. Enjoy the reading as a possible horror story for future Hydrogen Fuel Cell vehicles!

With over eight years of experience in Fuel Cell vehicles, GM did the correct step by not continuing this path and go directly to the EREV Volt and the BEV Bolt EV. Now do you think Toyota (with the Mirai) can do better than GM?
Unless they educate and train owners on what to do, I have a feeling most won't do what the manual says to do, instead they'll be in the moment and run away.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Lol, basically telling you to run away and let the station attendant deal with shutting off the fuel nozzle. You'll also need to memorize the Emergency Response Quick Reference because lets face it, the emergency responders aren't going to go through the whole thing on the spot.
 

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Lol, basically telling you to run away and let the station attendant deal with shutting off the fuel nozzle. You'll also need to memorize the Emergency Response Quick Reference because lets face it, the emergency responders aren't going to go through the whole thing on the spot.
Starting to think that fire departments will eventually be trained on this. Timing is everything in these situations and reading through a pamphlet while everything is burning down won't likely be an option.

Plus they might already have a way to deal with it.
 

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Hopefully dealers do their due diligence so that people understand what the dangers are. Probably the best thing to do is to just get away from the car thats on fire though. Seems like the natural instinct is probably on point with that.
 

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Overall it won't be much of a thing to worry about but of course with hydrogen becoming a growing thing and being implemented they do have to consider what can happen. Just part of the education and preparation behind the process
 

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Discussion Starter #18
We have better hydrogen storage technology so that shouldn't happen with cars and fueling but there's always a chance and that's not a risk I'm willing to take when there's a safer alternative in electric.
 

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Same here, we do have to factor in that car makers want this stuff to be just as safe as we want it to be since when things go wrong.. it haunts them. They don't want those things to happen as much as we do and more.

Many more motivations.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Feel like manufacturers want to go the hydrogen route because it's a fuel they can control whereas electricity is not.
 
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