Chevy Bolt EV Forum banner

61 - 80 of 175 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,819 Posts
Volts, amps, kilowatts???? If I pull into an Electrify America station and there are a number of 150 and 350kw chargers available does it matter which one I use? And at an EVgo charger at 50kw will I still get maximum charging with my Bolt or should I stick to EA at higher kilowatts.
As Fivedoor mentioned, don't hog the CHAdeMO charger if there are others available. Aside from that, there's no difference in the Bolt's charge rate at 150 vs 350kW chargers. But a 50kW charger will be slightly slower - see below.

According to Eric Way, although we cannot benefit from the higher wattage, we can benefit from the higher amperage of the EA chargers. Makes no sense to me how/why this works, but I trust Eric.
It's because:

(a) the Bolt's battery maxes out at about 400 Volts, and it's closer to 300 Volts when the battery is discharged

(b) chargers produce up to 500 Volts at a maximum number of amps, typically 100, 125 or 150 amps.

(c) Power in Watts = Volts X Amps

Although the charger can produce up to 500V, an empty Bolt can only accept 300V. So even though a 100A charger is rated at 50kW (500V x 100A = 50,000W), the Bolt can only accept 30kW (300V x 100A).

(note - these numbers are simplified to make the math easier to understand).

An 80kW charger would be 500V x 160A - since the charger can produce more amps then an empty Bolt would be able to accept 160A x 300V = 48,000 W (48kW).

This is why the charger's amp rating can be more important than its power rating.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,433 Posts
This is why the charger's amp rating can be more important than its power rating.
And a 350 kW charger sounds really cool, until you realize they are talking about that at 1000 volts, and no car made today can take 1000 volts. The Porsche Taycan is good for 800 volts.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
131 Posts
I usually have problems with EA, mostly due to the short, heavy cables that you have to hold up during initialization. I have often had to try multiple chargers before I could get one to work. However, in fairness, I was always able to get the charge going eventually. The tech support was very friendly and helpful - but I really shouldn't have to call. Looking at plug share, it appears that they are working more reliably in that people usually get at least one working. In the past, some people got stranded.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,198 Posts
And a 350 kW charger sounds really cool, until you realize they are talking about that at 1000 volts, and no car made today can take 1000 volts. The Porsche Taycan is good for 800 volts.
With Electrify America, the best information I can find says that the KW ratings are based on 500 V for the 150 KW chargers and 1000 V for the 350 KW chargers, meaning that they max out at 350 amps... but some of the ultra fast chargers are labeled 320 KW... does that mean they are pushing less amps at 1000 volts, or more amps at 800 volts?

From researching on line, nobody knows. The only car that comes close to being able to take advantage of the ultra fast chargers at Electrify America stations is the Porsche, and it maxes out at 800V... so in the low SOC range, in charging tests on high power CCS stations it actually charges at 250 KW.

Simply put, charging stations need to be rated by the maximum current they can supply, not the theoretical maximum KW based on an arbitrary voltage that they will never actually supply to a EV battery.

Keith
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Hello, first time poster. I’ve been following this forum for awhile and have been impressed with the thoughtful and knowledgeable responses, so I hope you can help me. I was an early adopter of the first Leaf and have recently purchased a 2020 Bolt. Things have come a long way! I also own a brewery and ever since we‘ve opened have had a level 2 charger available for people to use free of charge. We are now looking to install a DCFC. Of course, this has higher costs, so we are looking to team up with a provider. Which charging network have you had the most success? What is the average costs you pay to charge up? What issues would you like to see resolved with DCFC? Any other comments would be appreciated. I have a conference meeting with Charge Point this morning to discuss possibilities. Cheers!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
84 Posts
My first consideration would be the "use case" you anticipate. I am a relatively new Bolt owner and have not used DCFC. As I see it, it's main value is for people who are "passing through". I see DCFC as most valuable on e.g. a long-distance interstate trip, when you need to charge up quickly (30 minutes) to go another 150 miles to another charger. Is your brewery a "destination attraction", where you want/expect people to stop on a cross-country trip? Do people drink while at your brewery? If you are expecting a mainly local crowd, I would think you might be better off installing more L2 chargers rather than a DCFC.

From a pricing standpoint, I think people will tolerate a cost that is less than the cost for an equivalent gasoline fill-up. Most of the public L2 chargers in my area are free (at present, anyway; not sure how long that will last.)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Thanks for the information. We our located about 1/4 mile off a state highway, not an interstate highway. Most charging stations seem to be positioned along major interstate highways or within major cities. We are in a small town, but within an area that attracts a lot of tourists. Getting locals to charge up is probably not a major issue. Even though we're not currently on any charging network, we get quite a few people from out of town charging up, but I feel kinda bad when someone comes by and it's being used since we have no way to let people know its been used/make reservations. We're not looking to make money from the charger, but don't want to loose money either. We'll keep our L2 charger free to use. Yes, people do drink at our brewery, hang out, play games, eat food, let their dogs/kids run around, etc. We also are solar powered (perhaps a solar DC to DCFC charging system?). I believe our main users would be folks that like to avoid the interstates and take more scenic routes through the Texas hill country or EV drivers/beer connoisseurs from large cities.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,433 Posts
I would suggest you install one of the small 50 amp DC fast chargers, from Delta or Bosch, that hang on an outside wall. A large 100 amp, or higher, charger is going to be crazy expensive, and absolutely a waste of money. It will break down, you will get discouraged by the repair costs for no return, and quit.

If, by some miracle, the wall unit gets lots of use, install another one.


 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,819 Posts
With Electrify America, the best information I can find says that the KW ratings are based on 500 V for the 150 KW chargers and 1000 V for the 350 KW chargers, meaning that they max out at 350 amps... but some of the ultra fast chargers are labeled 320 KW... does that mean they are pushing less amps at 1000 volts, or more amps at 800 volts?
The current (amps) rating is normally a limiting factor because it dictates how beefy the wiring and contactors inside the charger need to be. You can't build a charger with the guts to handle only 320A and then try to push 350A through it.

On the other hand, NEMA outlets are supposed to be derated to 80% of their capacity for continuous loads, so perhaps something like this is going on. It may be that the chargers will allow 350A inrush current on initialization and then throttle back to 320A. It could potentially, for example, be governed by the temperature of the coolant circulating through the charging cable.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
GJETSON, good advice! Just got off the phone with Charge Point, and yes the DCFC are expensive, about $40-50 K without installation. We may choose instead to add another level 2 charger, but get on their network so customers can check availability, etc. I'll look into the Delta and Bosch units. Cheers!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
125 Posts
GJETSON, good advice! Just got off the phone with Charge Point, and yes the DCFC are expensive, about $40-50 K without installation. We may choose instead to add another level 2 charger, but get on their network so customers can check availability, etc. I'll look into the Delta and Bosch units. Cheers!
Maybe it's because when I was a kid I wanted my own pop machine (so I could make some coin), but I was actually wondering what it would take to get a low-end DCFC in a particular small town in the middle of Nebraska. A DCFC there - even a slower one - would be very useful but I suppose it's not exactly a money-making venture. There are L2 chargers in this town and a few jokes about how rarely they get used. In my case, that's because I'd basically have to spend the night there at L2 speeds. I suppose convincing a business to invest in a faster charger would be a tall order. Maybe there needs to be a co-op of EV owners willing to invest in chargers they might actually use/need?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
517 Posts
Hello, first time poster. I’ve been following this forum for awhile and have been impressed with the thoughtful and knowledgeable responses, so I hope you can help me. I was an early adopter of the first Leaf and have recently purchased a 2020 Bolt. Things have come a long way! I also own a brewery and ever since we‘ve opened have had a level 2 charger available for people to use free of charge. We are now looking to install a DCFC. Of course, this has higher costs, so we are looking to team up with a provider. Which charging network have you had the most success? What is the average costs you pay to charge up? What issues would you like to see resolved with DCFC? Any other comments would be appreciated. I have a conference meeting with Charge Point this morning to discuss possibilities. Cheers!
The best bang for your buck will be the ChargePoint CP100 express 24 kW DCFC with dual CCS/Chademo plugs. Be aware this unit requires 3 phase 460V power at 32 amps. If you are running 240V power the Delta Wallbox unit has a 240V option requiring a 125 amp circuit to power it.

As for costs, there seems to be ranges. L2 typically ranges from free to about $2/hr which is a shade over 3 cents a minute. Ultra fast DCFC starts out at about 25 cents/min ($15/hr) up to Electrify America's top end $1/min ($60/hr). I've posited that medium speed DCFC in the ballpark of 10 cents a minute ($6/hr) would represent a balance between the increase in available charging speed and the increased installation and usage costs. A full 25kWh delivered in 1 hr would cost 24 cents/kWh which is not an unreasonable cost For the utility/flexibility the station offers.

Unfortunately there are few units like these out in the wild. The best bet for getting real information is probably to visit the closest Harley dealer, as Harley has a near nationwide rollout of these types of stations.

I wish you luck in your installation. Please keep up informed of your progress. I believe that these types of DCFC installation should form the backbone of the local charging infrastructure.

ga2500ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,433 Posts
GJETSON, good advice! Just got off the phone with Charge Point, and yes the DCFC are expensive, about $40-50 K without installation. We may choose instead to add another level 2 charger, but get on their network so customers can check availability, etc. I'll look into the Delta and Bosch units. Cheers!

The little wall units can still run off 240 volts, not the massive lines the big units need, yet deliver three times the range per hour as a Level 2, a good compromise.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
517 Posts
GJETSON, good advice! Just got off the phone with Charge Point, and yes the DCFC are expensive, about $40-50 K without installation. We may choose instead to add another level 2 charger, but get on their network so customers can check availability, etc. I'll look into the Delta and Bosch units. Cheers!
So ChargePoint didn't even pitch the CP100 Express? A 5 minute search on Google Shopping shows a couple of shops selling them for $12,500. The Delta units are below $10k. Both can be attached to the ChargePoint network to check availability and for billing.

Color me disappointed. While a 50-62.5 kW DCFC seems inviting, those costs are simply ridiculous when you can get 3, 4, or 5 of the 25 kW units for the same dollars.

ga2500ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,433 Posts
The best bet for getting real information is probably to visit the closest Harley dealer, as Harley has a near nationwide rollout of these types of stations.
Also check PlugShare for car dealerships. Many now have the small wall units. When we were in Ithaca this fall we used one for the first time. There is a huge dealership up there that seems to own every car lot of every brand for miles around. They had two hanging at their Chevy dealership, and one at their Toyota dealership...and Toyota doesn't currently make a car that can use one.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Wow! A wealth of information. You guys are great! Thanks for all the help, now to review everything and come up with a game plan. Thanks again.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,568 Posts
So ChargePoint didn't even pitch the CP100 Express? A 5 minute search on Google Shopping shows a couple of shops selling them for $12,500. The Delta units are below $10k. Both can be attached to the ChargePoint network to check availability and for billing.

Color me disappointed. While a 50-62.5 kW DCFC seems inviting, those costs are simply ridiculous when you can get 3, 4, or 5 of the 25 kW units for the same dollars.

ga2500ev
The $500 Tesla wall connector can handle 11.5kW and 48 amps. Also has wi-fi. Chain a Tesla Tap to the wall for $300. You might even get Tesla to pony up for the entire cost of install as a destination charger. You only pay the cost of electricity.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Thanks Dyefrog, I hadn't even thought of the Tesla option. The adapter isn't too expensive either. I've reached out to Tesla, awaiting Elon's call back ?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,433 Posts
The $500 Tesla wall connector can handle 11.5kW and 48 amps. Also has wi-fi. Chain a Tesla Tap to the wall for $300. You might even get Tesla to pony up for the entire cost of install as a destination charger. You only pay the cost of electricity.
I went to the grand opening of the Tesla destination site at this local brewery. I just checked. Apparently they were not impressed by the business traffic they got from it. Read the comments!

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
517 Posts
The $500 Tesla wall connector can handle 11.5kW and 48 amps. Also has wi-fi. Chain a Tesla Tap to the wall for $300. You might even get Tesla to pony up for the entire cost of install as a destination charger. You only pay the cost of electricity.
I have multiple posts on here (and elsewhere) discussing why L2 only isn't going to cut it for the public charging infrastructure. Yes it is cheap and it does give you access. But it's limited. Very few EVs can really take advantage of an 11.2 kW 48A EVSE. It defines one of the real problems with L2 which is that the car has to have a matching onboard charger to take advantage. Everyone with a DCFC port can get maximum power almost all the time out of a DCFC. And by definition DCFC can offer more power than the top end of L2 (80 amps, 19.2 kW).

BTW there''s no need to use an adapter. That Tesla destination charging program will offer a Clipper Creek with a standard J1772 with the installation of 2 Tesla chargers.

But back to the point. Medium speed DCFC will help folks charge a bit faster than L2. DWrath noted that the brewery already has L2 (for free), on site. Medium speed DCFC will enhance the charging opportunities without hopefully breaking the bank.

And pricing works out well too. If someone wants to spend two or three hours for free juice, they certainly can do it. But charging folks 10 cents a minute to use the DCFC will both help defray the costs and will facilitate those who need/want a faster charge to get one.

In fact, why not just do both since Tesla is willing to front the hardware and installation of the destination chargers?

ga2500ev
 
61 - 80 of 175 Posts
Top