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Hello, first time poster. I’ve been following this forum for awhile and have been impressed with the thoughtful and knowledgeable responses, so I hope you can help me. I was an early adopter of the first Leaf and have recently purchased a 2020 Bolt. Things have come a long way! I also own a brewery and ever since we‘ve opened have had a level 2 charger available for people to use free of charge. We are now looking to install a DCFC. Of course, this has higher costs, so we are looking to team up with a provider. Which charging network have you had the most success? What is the average costs you pay to charge up? What issues would you like to see resolved with DCFC? Any other comments would be appreciated. I have a conference meeting with Charge Point this morning to discuss possibilities. Cheers!
The best bang for your buck will be the ChargePoint CP100 express 24 kW DCFC with dual CCS/Chademo plugs. Be aware this unit requires 3 phase 460V power at 32 amps. If you are running 240V power the Delta Wallbox unit has a 240V option requiring a 125 amp circuit to power it.

As for costs, there seems to be ranges. L2 typically ranges from free to about $2/hr which is a shade over 3 cents a minute. Ultra fast DCFC starts out at about 25 cents/min ($15/hr) up to Electrify America's top end $1/min ($60/hr). I've posited that medium speed DCFC in the ballpark of 10 cents a minute ($6/hr) would represent a balance between the increase in available charging speed and the increased installation and usage costs. A full 25kWh delivered in 1 hr would cost 24 cents/kWh which is not an unreasonable cost For the utility/flexibility the station offers.

Unfortunately there are few units like these out in the wild. The best bet for getting real information is probably to visit the closest Harley dealer, as Harley has a near nationwide rollout of these types of stations.

I wish you luck in your installation. Please keep up informed of your progress. I believe that these types of DCFC installation should form the backbone of the local charging infrastructure.

ga2500ev


You could actually look into getting a partnership with Harley... is your brewery a place that Harley riders on their EV motorcycle would like to make a pit stop?

Keith
 

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You could actually look into getting a partnership with Harley... is your brewery a place that Harley riders on their EV motorcycle would like to make a pit stop?

Keith

I assume you are joking. Has anybody actually seen a Harley Livewire on the road? They are like VW EVs. I have seen Zero electric motorcycles, and several Energicas show up on PlugShare locations. An electric Harley is a unicorn.
 

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I assume you are joking. Has anybody actually seen a Harley Livewire on the road? They are like VW EVs. I have seen Zero electric motorcycles, and several Energicas show up on PlugShare locations. An electric Harley is a unicorn.
But a bunch of Harley dealerships are getting chargers... seems like a waste of money unless they intend on pushing them on the sales floor.

Keith
 

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But a bunch of Harley dealerships are getting chargers... seems like a waste of money unless they intend on pushing them on the sales floor.

Keith
Yes, it is. The folks they are hoping to attract have never had the slightest interest in Harleys, or the 1950's fantasy they project. I grew up a half hour from the plant. As a kid, we went on a school field trip there. I was part of the Japanese driven motorbike boom. Harley brought out some Harley branded Italian Aermacchi motorbikes to try and get in on it. They never were serious about selling them, and the venture was a flop.
 

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Yes, it is. The folks they are hoping to attract have never had the slightest interest in Harleys, or the 1950's fantasy they project. I grew up a half hour from the plant. As a kid, we went on a school field trip there. I was part of the Japanese driven motorbike boom. Harley brought out some Harley branded Italian Aermacchi motorbikes to try and get in on it. They never were serious about selling them, and the venture was a flop.
Sad to hear that. I was hoping they would get in on the ground floor. If the younger generation (urban, not rural) opt out of owning cars in favor of ride share / community owned transport I can see surplus income being spent on ecological friendly toys like EV motorcycles.

Keith
 

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I actually think if you want DCFC on your property, you should see if Electrify America has any interest. They'd lease the space needed from you and pay all the other cost. Probably they'd say “No”, but if they said “Yes!”, it'd be a huge win, because they'd put in faster charging and take care of the maintenance.

The 25 kW chargers that some folks are advocating are a mixed bag. For anyone on a long distance trip, they're too slow to be much use. And for many folks doing opportunity charging, Level-2 would be fine — they don't really need a ton of power for a bit of a top up.

Some people do benefit from 25 kW chargers, but I think it's more people in cities who can't charge at home. The question is whether there are enough of those people to be worth the initial outlay and the maintenance when inevitably something gets broken.
 

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I think as the DCFC infrastructure gets built out more, we'll actually less need for fast at-home charging. 99.0% of the time fairly slow 5 kW or less at-home charging is fine; it's rare that you're going to be doing back-to-back trips in town or right after a long commute that entirely drain the battery, especially with a long-range vehicle like the Bolt. On the very rare occasion that you do, it would make more sense to just go to a public DCFC station like you would a gas station. Right now this is pretty inconvenient in many parts of the country due to a lack of infrastructure and slow charging speeds on the Bolt and most other non-Tesla EVs. But as those problems get improved, it'll become more feasible to do a fast charge when needed and use slow and cheap at-home charging for everything else. Being able to recharge like 30 miles per hour at utility electricity rates or free solar is fine for almost everybody.
 

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Sad to hear that. I was hoping they would get in on the ground floor. If the younger generation (urban, not rural) opt out of owning cars in favor of ride share / community owned transport I can see surplus income being spent on ecological friendly toys like EV motorcycles.

Keith
They are a bit too late to get in on the ground floor of electric motorcycles. The Isle of Mann ran an electric TT race from 2009 through 2019, when they quit, probably because a Honda connected private racing team had won for the last six years. There was an international road racing series for three years, that started in 2010. Zero Motorcycles has been selling bikes since 2010.


The Pikes Peak overall motorcycle record was held by an electric Lightning brand motorcycle in 2013.

The current highest range, and performance, DC fast charging production electric motorcycle is the Energica EGO.


They are to the Livewire, what Tesla is to Fisker...real.
 

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The 25 kW chargers that some folks are advocating are a mixed bag. For anyone on a long distance trip, they're too slow to be much use. And for many folks doing opportunity charging, Level-2 would be fine — they don't really need a ton of power for a bit of a top up.

Some people do benefit from 25 kW chargers, but I think it's more people in cities who can't charge at home. The question is whether there are enough of those people to be worth the initial outlay and the maintenance when inevitably something gets broken.
This is right on the mark. Medium speed DCFC is a bag of compromises. It's fast but not ultra fast. It's cheap but not ultra cheap. It fills a gap but doesn't cover the entire chasm.

Where it is helpful though is that opportunity charging space that isn't a top off. If someone local is at 80% SOC, then a L2 top off works well. But someone coming in at 15-20% SOC, L2 is unable to deliver enough power to make a dent in any reasonable timeframe. Being able to get from 15-20% to 50% in an hour or less has some utility. Medium speed DCFC can offer that along with the top off. L2 can't.

As I stated a few posts ago, having a combo of both with the L2 offered free (as the OP said they were doing now), and medium speed DCFC at a reasonable price would differentiate these scenarios. True top offs would gravitate to the free, or cheaper, L2. Those who actually need a bit more juice faster can spend a bit and use the medium speed DCFC. Having both covers both use cases.

As for road tripping, I wonder if medium speed keeps certain trips impossible, or just turns them from impossible to just annoying. There's a CCS charging desert for example in Alabama just Southwest of Atlanta along I-85 and I-65. 270 miles of highway with 0 CCS charging stations currently. Electrify America is going to filll out that stretch with 2-3 stations in the next year or so. Now for some reason the Harley dealership in Montgomery AL doesn't seem to have a charging station. But if it did, and it facilitated a 2 hour charging stop that could get a Bolt from Atlanta to the EA station in Pensacola on I-10, would it be worth the effort to road trip now before the year or so it may take EA to put in highered powered stations along the route? I don't have an anwer to that question, but I'm interested in whether or not any of you would undertake a trip under those circumstances?

ga2500ev
 

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There's a CCS charging desert for example in Alabama just Southwest of Atlanta along I-85 and I-65. 270 miles of highway with 0 CCS charging stations currently. Electrify America is going to filll out that stretch with 2-3 stations in the next year or so. Now for some reason the Harley dealership in Montgomery AL doesn't seem to have a charging station. But if it did, and it facilitated a 2 hour charging stop that could get a Bolt from Atlanta to the EA station in Pensacola on I-10, would it be worth the effort to road trip now before the year or so it may take EA to put in highered powered stations along the route? I don't have an anwer to that question, but I'm interested in whether or not any of you would undertake a trip under those circumstances?

ga2500ev
The charging desert extends into Mississippi and Lousianna. I would not take a trip through any of those states unless I were spending the night at a hotel with a reserved L2 charger.
 

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...There's a CCS charging desert for example in Alabama just Southwest of Atlanta along I-85 and I-65. 270 miles of highway with 0 CCS charging stations currently. Electrify America is going to filll out that stretch with 2-3 stations in the next year or so...

ga2500ev
ga2500ev, Where did you hear they are filling in this gap in Alabama in the next year? I have been watching closely the i-20 corridor west of Atlanta (because my in-laws live in Tuscaloosa), waiting for EA to work that interstate. (I even took a road trip stopping at every Wal-Mart along I-20 to look for construction).
I know it was on the original phase 2 plan, but that all got put on hold as they reaccess their priorities and focus on other regions (I guess EV's aren't selling enough in Alabama; of course that's a catch 22 situation since there is no infrastructure to support it!)

Just curious, because i am very hopeful EA or EVGo will go in somewhere around Birmingham; and Montgomery is great too, so we can get southwest easier as you mentioned. (y)
 

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ga2500ev, Where did you hear they are filling in this gap in Alabama in the next year? I have been watching closely the i-20 corridor west of Atlanta (because my in-laws live in Tuscaloosa), waiting for EA to work that interstate. (I even took a road trip stopping at every Wal-Mart along I-20 to look for construction).
I know it was on the original phase 2 plan, but that all got put on hold as they reaccess their priorities and focus on other regions (I guess EV's aren't selling enough in Alabama; of course that's a catch 22 situation since there is no infrastructure to support it!)

Just curious, because i am very hopeful EA or EVGo will go in somewhere around Birmingham; and Montgomery is great too, so we can get southwest easier as you mentioned. (y)
I was not aware of the reassessment of the Cycle 2 plan. When did that happen? I didn't see any updates on their news site or on any of the EV sites I frequent. So I figured since it was in the cycle 2 plan (table 8 on page 48 BTW), that was where they were eventually going to roll out.

Right now EA is behind schedule, especially in California. They are really just finishing up Cycle 1. So I didn't figure that late meant that those site were off the table.

BTW the year was simply a guess based their schedule. Cycle 2 is planned to end in December 2021. I was simply figuring they would have sited and started to deploy at least some of those stations by the end of the cycle.

ga2500ev
 

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You saw the same thing i saw when i bought my Bolt. That's why i was very hopeful it would be soon.
Let me find the article I read about them refocusing their Cycle 2 rollout on California and other high EV dense locations.
It was an interview I think with EA at some auto show. But let me find it and I will post the link. I recall reading it thinking that meant Alabama was moving wayyyyyyyy down the list as they wanted to get California and a couple other locations done first. And it was based off current EV sales where they would focus and re-allocate.
 

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The charging desert extends into Mississippi and Lousianna. I would not take a trip through any of those states unless I were spending the night at a hotel with a reserved L2 charger.
I-10 all the way from Jacksonville is pretty well filled out by EA. While the North/South routes through are inaccessible, East/West travel is possible by driving south to I-10 then taking it across. A possible Atlanta route currently is to drive south through Columbus down to Chipley, FL. Plugshare is showing a CCS station in Columbus. But there are no checkins, so it's unclear if it's actually working.

Still looking for opinions of whether anyone would simply skip the trip if the fastest DCFC along the route in the desert was 25-30 kW DCFC. If it were once in a awhile and I really wasn't in a hurry, I'd probably chance it as it's just sucking up some time.

ga2500ev
 

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Still looking for opinions of whether anyone would simply skip the trip if the fastest DCFC along the route in the desert was 25-30 kW DCFC. If it were once in a awhile and I really wasn't in a hurry, I'd probably chance it as it's just sucking up some time.
For me, the most important thing is a backup. There is no way I would consider somewhere with a single charger, as there is just too much risk, either of it being broken, or of a long wait.

I also like to avoid slow chargers, so a single slow charger would be combining two bad things to make a terrible thing.

I'm unexcited about charging at a 100A (38 kW) EVgo station, but have done so in the past. I think that's about my minimum.

When charging doesn't seem like it'll be any fun, I'll (reluctantly) drive something else.
 

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My pain tolerance is pretty high with respect to charging. I want to see EVs (not just Teslas) became mainstream. My goal is to support the infrastructure growth by creating demand for chargers. I would make the trip even if I had to bridge a 300-mile gap with a 20kW chargers. But that's just me, and I certainly don't expect others to be willing to do the same.
 

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I also like to avoid slow chargers, so a single slow charger would be combining two bad things to make a terrible thing.

I'm unexcited about charging at a 100A (38 kW) EVgo station, but have done so in the past. I think that's about my minimum.

When charging doesn't seem like it'll be any fun, I'll (reluctantly) drive something else.
Keep in mind if it is 50 degrees F or less, your car won't charge faster than 38kw anyways.

Keep in mind if you are charging from 60% to anything above, your car won't charge at more than 38kw anyways.

More powerful chargers help you when you are in the Sweet Spot - Very warm to even hot conditions and when at lower, but not empty, state of charge.

You would be talking about saving minutes of time, not hours. No big deal for many folks.
 

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Right now EA is behind schedule, especially in California. .

ga2500ev
Judging by the flurry of "site review" video's Eric (News Coulomb) has put out in the last week, it looks like EA operations in California have went into overdrive... perhaps a good sign that they will get those completed and move on to other areas?

Keith
 
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