[Vertiformed]

Electrify America's “Cycle 1” plan runs from January 2017 to June 2019 and includes the build-out of their national charging network (PDF version here):

It seems like they've pulled the documents for their cycle 1 plans (although I still have copies).

Recently they released their Cycle 2 plans, which aim to extend and enhance the above network and improve metro charging.

• National ZEV Investment Plan: Cycle 2 (PDF)
• California ZEV Investment Plan: Cycle 2 (PDF)

They're worth a read both because you get to see what they're planning on doing next, but also their perspective on what will help EV adoption (which is actually the primary purpose of EA, to help drive EV adoption; their charging network is a means to that end). Given that a lot of discussion on this site centers around these questions, EA's perspective (which is informed by more evidence as compared to the typical gut-feelings post on this site) may be interesting.

There is also a summary article over on electricrevs.com.

 

[Electric Patriot]

That was interesting. Thanks for posting.

 

[Cataract2]

Really wish they would focus solely on putting all units along major travel corridors like interstate highway and US highways instead of within cities that already have coverage. Make it possible to travel with an EV rather than just take it to the grocery store. I can say, within my region I would never use a DCFC, but traveling I would. Some of the locations just don't make sense. A shopping district? A Level 2 would make more sense in those places. DCFC at them just doesn't make as much sense unless they are right next to an interstate highway.

 

[Electric Patriot]

Really wish they would focus solely on putting all units along major travel corridors like interstate highway and US highways instead of within cities that already have coverage. Make it possible to travel with an EV rather than just take it to the grocery store. I can say, within my region I would never use a DCFC, but traveling I would. Some of the locations just don't make sense. A shopping district? A Level 2 would make more sense in those places. DCFC at them just doesn't make as much sense unless they are right next to an interstate highway.

They aren't only installing DCFC - some of what they talked about would be Level 2 chargers.

 

[SparkE]

Really wish they would focus solely on putting all units along major travel corridors like interstate highway and US highways instead of within cities that already have coverage. Make it possible to travel with an EV rather than just take it to the grocery store. I can say, within my region I would never use a DCFC, but traveling I would. Some of the locations just don't make sense. A shopping district? A Level 2 would make more sense in those places. DCFC at them just doesn't make as much sense unless they are right next to an interstate highway.

DCFCs in shopping areas make perfect sense : for people who live in appt buildings and/or don't own their own place (and thus can't modify it to put in 240V). That's well over 25% of the U.S. urban population. 50-80 kW DCFCs make perfect sense in shopping plazas and grocery store lots (places you are going to spend 20-60 minutes). Much more so than trying to put 5 or 10 or 20 L2 units in every appt complex.


L2s make the most sense in places one is going to spend *hours* : home and work (and movie complexes and 'park and ride' lots/transit lots).

50 kW DCFCs make sense in places one is going to spend up to an hour. And in urban areas where people want to add (say) 50-100 miles relatively quickly.

100+ kW DCFCs make sense alongside major highway routes, enabling long distance travel.


I agree that the biggest hole concerning charging currently is DCFC for long distance travel, not close to large urban areas, and that needs to be addressed. However, for true EV adoption, urban areas will also need lots of redundant charging infrastructure. What is sufficient *today* will probably not be sufficient if even 5% of new vehicles sold are EVs. And it's sort of chicken and egg : need more charging spots so that people will be more comfortable buying EVs, and need EVs so that companies will install more charging spots because there are enough people to make it worthwhile.

 

[Vertiformed]

Really wish they would focus solely on putting all units along major travel corridors like interstate highway and US highways instead of within cities that already have coverage. Make it possible to travel with an EV rather than just take it to the grocery store. I can say, within my region I would never use a DCFC, but traveling I would. Some of the locations just don't make sense. A shopping district? A Level 2 would make more sense in those places. DCFC at them just doesn't make as much sense unless they are right next to an interstate highway.

This is one reason why it's an interesting read. I think their plan reflects the realities of EV ownership, and draws on some data from Tesla owners who have a much more extensive network. I think their conclusion is that EV owners say they want to take road trips, but in practice those trips are pretty rare. When use patterns are studied, it's more about metro areas and locations in a 150-mile radius adjacent to metro areas.

I think in a lot of case, this might be right. That for range anxiety, I want to have the case covered where I go out on a trip, but I'm running low on my way home. I'll have less anxiety if I know that as I get closer to home I'm going to have a lot of options to handle not being able to make it. (And similarly for my destination if I'm going to another city.)

It might be cool to know I can drive through Nebraska, but in reality it's not likely to happen.

We can argue whether their data is skewed by Tesla's free charging, that free charging encourages people to skip a home EVSE install and just charge on the go. But since EA's goal is to encourage EV adoption, maybe that's an okay thing.

One other thing I get from their report is that they pay attention to feedback they get. Feel free to submit a comment or recommendation.

(Although, in hindsight, this is something we should have been organizing at this time last year to help influence how Cycle 2 was shaped.)

 

[wonderbolt]

(Although, in hindsight, this is something we should have been organizing at this time last year to help influence how Cycle 2 was shaped.)

That was exactly my thought as well. When I realized that they only received 23 "inputs" from NY, I could have generated that many from our EV enthusiasts group

 

[Cataract2]

This is one reason why it's an interesting read. I think their plan reflects the realities of EV ownership, and draws on some data from Tesla owners who have a much more extensive network. I think their conclusion is that EV owners say they want to take road trips, but in practice those trips are pretty rare. When use patterns are studied, it's more about metro areas and locations in a 150-mile radius adjacent to metro areas.

I think in a lot of case, this might be right. That for range anxiety, I want to have the case covered where I go out on a trip, but I'm running low on my way home. I'll have less anxiety if I know that as I get closer to home I'm going to have a lot of options to handle not being able to make it. (And similarly for my destination if I'm going to another city.)

It might be cool to know I can drive through Nebraska, but in reality it's not likely to happen.

We can argue whether their data is skewed by Tesla's free charging, that free charging encourages people to skip a home EVSE install and just charge on the go. But since EA's goal is to encourage EV adoption, maybe that's an okay thing.

One other thing I get from their report is that they pay attention to feedback they get. Feel free to submit a comment or recommendation.

(Although, in hindsight, this is something we should have been organizing at this time last year to help influence how Cycle 2 was shaped.)

Honestly, I didn't even know they were taking input last year. Course, I only started thinking about EV ownership last year so that might have something to do with it. I guess I'm in the minority. I have family in CO should I go to visit them it will be either on 2 wheels or with 4. I hate flying. I would love to take the Bolt that way. Looking at Plugshare it looks like I can do so now with some planning, but there is certainly some large areas where travel would be near impossible in any reasonable time frame. It's certainly going to take time.

Also, I kind of feel that Chargepoint, EVGO and others have got the urban areas fairly well covered. I was kind of thinking EA was going to handle the road trip side of the house. Maybe I misunderstood their mission.

 

[Enzeder]

Really wish they would focus solely on putting all units along major travel corridors like interstate highway and US highways instead of within cities that already have coverage. Make it possible to travel with an EV rather than just take it to the grocery store. I can say, within my region I would never use a DCFC, but traveling I would. Some of the locations just don't make sense. A shopping district? A Level 2 would make more sense in those places. DCFC at them just doesn't make as much sense unless they are right next to an interstate highway.

Yeah, me too. But I get why they're doing it. Give the city folk a convenient way to charge. Quite a few of the DCFC's in the city here are in retail areas, not residential areas. Focusing on high density residential areas will spread the EV love

Unfortunately, unless you live in the UK or one of its colonies, the Bolt is not particularly suited to urban charging. I've tried it a few times and it's not pretty. The cable ends up under considerable load. I imagine Tesla (if they could use the charger - CHAdeMO?) would have the same problem with their charge port on the left side. Take a look at the image galley from the location below:
https://www.plugshare.com/location/112711

 

[NewsCoulomb]

Really wish they would focus solely on putting all units along major travel corridors like interstate highway and US highways instead of within cities that already have coverage. Make it possible to travel with an EV rather than just take it to the grocery store. I can say, within my region I would never use a DCFC, but traveling I would. Some of the locations just don't make sense. A shopping district? A Level 2 would make more sense in those places. DCFC at them just doesn't make as much sense unless they are right next to an interstate highway.

I wouldn't discount Electrify America's Walmart sites, as they mostly do what you're describing. Outside of metropolitan areas, Walmarts are typically located just off of major freeways. Now, you might not like the idea of stopping at Walmart on a trip, but most Walmarts (even in rural areas) have other businesses in the immediate area (coffee, food, etc.).

 

[Cataract2]

I wouldn't discount Electrify America's Walmart sites, as they mostly do what you're describing. Outside of metropolitan areas, Walmarts are typically located just off of major freeways. Now, you might not like the idea of stopping at Walmart on a trip, but most Walmarts (even in rural areas) have other businesses in the immediate area (coffee, food, etc.).

That is true. One thing I've noticed on Plugshare looking at EA's sites along the interstates is how the Walwarts is right along them.

 

[raitchison]

Also, I kind of feel that Chargepoint, EVGO and others have got the urban areas fairly well covered. I was kind of thinking EA was going to handle the road trip side of the house. Maybe I misunderstood their mission.

I think they are working from a flawed premise, and I read the California paper and it does look like they put some thought into it but I don't think they thought it all the way through.

Looks like a major factor they use in calculating the "supply/demand gap" is the number of people living in multi family housing (apartments and the like). While I agree that EV drivers who live in apartment buildings are the most likely to need to rely on public charging I think these people are going to lag behind homeowners in terms of EV adoption for some time partly because of the inconvenience factor but also because these people tend to have less disposable income so paying a premium to purchase/lease an EV will be difficult for them.

I also agree that the existing public charging networks do have adequate coverage in urban and suburban areas at least in the Los Angeles area. As EV adoption increases we'll of course need more but I think for the short term they should be investing more heavily in the inter-city corridors which is a major limitation for (non-Tesla) EVs today.

As I've said in the past, the public charging networks didn't even need to figure this out for themselves, they just have to copy Tesla's homework. Tesla started by focusing on SuperCharger sites along the inter-city corridors and then came back and started building out in urban and suburban areas. While I'm sure it's considerably less expensive to build out a DCFC site in a well developed area it's not where they are needed most.

 

[SparkE]

As I've said in the past, the public charging networks didn't even need to figure this out for themselves, they just have to copy Tesla's homework. Tesla started by focusing on SuperCharger sites along the inter-city corridors and then came back and started building out in urban and suburban areas. While I'm sure it's considerably less expensive to build out a DCFC site in a well developed area it's not where they are needed most.

In the last couple of weeks, Tesla just turned on over 35 "urban supercharger" (72 kW) plugs at Santana Row in San Jose (intersection of I-880 and I-280). That is in addition to the 12 "urban SC" plugs installed in Los Gatos, 24 plugs on Cherry Ave in SJ (near CA-85 & CA87), and 12 in downtown San Jose that were enabled in the past 6 months. That is in addition to the 10 that went live at ValCo shopping centre (Cupertino) about 10 months ago. All within about 5-6 miles of the first location I mentioned (Santana Row).

I know that Calif is "EV central", that there are a LOT of people with waaaaay too much disposable income in silicon valley and thus a lot of Teslas, but DAM (or is that "DA-yum"?) !! There are 72 kW, 10+ stall sites every 5-10 miles or so it seems ringing the SF Bay Area.

I really, really hope that in the next couple of years there will be some sort of agreement with Tesla to provide SC <-> CCS adapters for "the other half". It seems that if they charged a 40% up-charge for electricity (over what they charge Tesla drivers), it would still be cheaper than (or at least comparable to) EA. And I smell a new business opportunity - "SC converter rentals" ... I'd buy a couple (?for $500 each?) and rent them out for $75 a week (+ eventual charging fees, plus a 5% "handling fee" on electricity bill-through ) for those non-Tesla EV drivers wishing to travel with a reliable backup for charging.

 

[raitchison]

In the last couple of weeks, Tesla just turned on over 35 "urban supercharger" (72 kW) plugs at Santana Row in San Jose (intersection of I-880 and I-280). That is in addition to the 12 "urban SC" plugs installed in Los Gatos, 24 plugs on Cherry Ave in SJ (near CA-85 & CA87), and 12 in downtown San Jose that were enabled in the past 6 months. That is in addition to the 10 that went live at ValCo shopping centre (Cupertino) about 10 months ago. All within about 5-6 miles of the first location I mentioned (Santana Row).

I agree they are working hard now on building up the urban & suburban coverage but they covered (mostly) the Interstates years ago.

I do find it fascinating that it seems many Tesla owners seem to use the SuperCharger network as their primary (in some cases only) way of charging their cars, even the ones who have homes where they could install and use an L2 EVSE. Seems mighty inconvenient but maybe I'd feel differently if I was drinking Tesla kool-aid.

I really, really hope that in the next couple of years there will be some sort of agreement with Tesla to provide SC <-> CCS adapters for "the other half". It seems that if they charged a 40% up-charge for electricity (over what they charge Tesla drivers), it would still be cheaper than (or at least comparable to) EA. And I smell a new business opportunity - "SC converter rentals" ... I'd buy a couple (?for $500 each?) and rent them out for $75 a week (+ eventual charging fees, plus a 5% "handling fee" on electricity bill-through ) for those non-Tesla EV drivers wishing to travel with a reliable backup for charging.

Honestly even if they charged 2x or 3x as much as they charge Tesla owners it would be huge, it would instantly open up long distance driving for large parts of the country.

 

[Dyefrog]

In the last couple of weeks, Tesla just turned on over 35 "urban supercharger" (72 kW) plugs at Santana Row in San Jose (intersection of I-880 and I-280). That is in addition to the 12 "urban SC" plugs installed in Los Gatos, 24 plugs on Cherry Ave in SJ (near CA-85 & CA87), and 12 in downtown San Jose that were enabled in the past 6 months. That is in addition to the 10 that went live at ValCo shopping centre (Cupertino) about 10 months ago. All within about 5-6 miles of the first location I mentioned (Santana Row).

I know that Calif is "EV central", that there are a LOT of people with waaaaay too much disposable income in silicon valley and thus a lot of Teslas, but DAM (or is that "DA-yum"?) !! There are 72 kW, 10+ stall sites every 5-10 miles or so it seems ringing the SF Bay Area.

I really, really hope that in the next couple of years there will be some sort of agreement with Tesla to provide SC <-> CCS adapters for "the other half". It seems that if they charged a 40% up-charge for electricity (over what they charge Tesla drivers), it would still be cheaper than (or at least comparable to) EA. And I smell a new business opportunity - "SC converter rentals" ... I'd buy a couple (?for $500 each?) and rent them out for $75 a week (+ eventual charging fees, plus a 5% "handling fee" on electricity bill-through ) for those non-Tesla EV drivers wishing to travel with a reliable backup for charging.

Well based on Morgan Stanley's recent analyst report from Adam Jonas, who BTW is quite critical of Tesla,
"Morgan Stanley estimates Tesla will expand the supercharger network to 15,000 stations "by 2030 to support a Tesla on-the-road fleet size approaching 13 million units," Jonas said.
Growth in Tesla's charging network "is far slower than the growth in Tesla's car population," Jonas said. The network grew by about 40 percent year over year, he said, whereas the number of Teslas on the road increased by 83 percent. Additionally, the Tesla fleet "has grown far faster than its physical store and service location network, raising investor concerns about strain on the system," Jonas said."
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/12/morgan-stanley-tesla-charging-station-network-competitive-moat.html?
"We estimate Tesla's chargers may account for 30 percent to 40 percent of total US charging outlets counted by the US Dept. of Energy,"
I too hope that they open it up to everyone, it just works.

Why did it take them 6 years to figure out this moat thingy. However, as I've mentioned on previous posts, his point about the build-out not keeping pace with sales could get worse before it gets better. I would hope that they are focusing their efforts on the higher density areas that have wait times vs the majority of the ones outside metropolitan areas which are rarely occupied but tremendously useful and well placed.

 

[Joule]

Well based on Morgan Stanley's recent analyst report from Adam Jonas, who BTW is quite critical of Tesla,
"Morgan Stanley estimates Tesla will expand the supercharger network to 15,000 stations "by 2030 to support a Tesla on-the-road fleet size approaching 13 million units," Jonas said.
Growth in Tesla's charging network "is far slower than the growth in Tesla's car population," Jonas said. The network grew by about 40 percent year over year, he said, whereas the number of Teslas on the road increased by 83 percent. Additionally, the Tesla fleet "has grown far faster than its physical store and service location network, raising investor concerns about strain on the system," Jonas said."
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/12/morgan-stanley-tesla-charging-station-network-competitive-moat.html?
"We estimate Tesla's chargers may account for 30 percent to 40 percent of total US charging outlets counted by the US Dept. of Energy,"
I too hope that they open it up to everyone, it just works.

Why did it take them 6 years to figure out this moat thingy. However, as I've mentioned on previous posts, his point about the build-out not keeping pace with sales could get worse before it gets better. I would hope that they are focusing their efforts on the higher density areas that have wait times vs the majority of the ones outside metropolitan areas which are rarely occupied but tremendously useful and well placed.

Adam Jonas might have good reason to be critical of Tesla, but I question whether his recent critique is based on good reason. I think it would be unreasonable to expect the SC network to grow on par with each percentage point growth in unit sales. When we consider that the vast majority of the day to day charging for most EV's will be done at home, and that the majority of Tesla SC's currently installed sit idle for most of each 24 hour period, matching SC growth with unit sales growth might be a little wasteful IMO. In terms of major route coverage in NA at least, I believe Tesla is almost there, with the small exception of possibly a connecting route through North Dakota and the Northern part of Montana, and just as important, the Trans Canada connection across the prairie's. Where I think Tesla likely needs to increase density of SC's now is in major urban centers. Drawing a 100 mile diameter circle around Seattle, San Fran, LA, Miami (maybe more like an oval), Washington, and NYC should pretty much encompass the areas most in need of an increased density of SC's. Now Tesla service centers IMO are a completely different story, and they definitely have some work to do in this area as well.

 

[tomw]

I did give input for cycle 2. I pointed out the dearth of charging infrastructure along most of route 395 which goes north-south through SE CA and NW NV on into SE OR.

I certainly understand the need for some DCFC in cities for apartment dwellers who have no L2 access on the premises, even though I will likely never use the ones in my city.

I also pointed out the dearth of charging in most of NV outside of the two major cities, but they will likely (wisely) concentrate on higher population density areas. Tesla has superchargers in NV all along I-80 as well as route 50 "the loneliest highway in the world". Also along major highways through other sparsely populated western states like WY and MT. One of the many things they did right. They understood that many people need to feel they can take a road trip even if they rarely do. Showing my converted ev at Earth Day for about 7 of the last 9 years, one of the comments I constantly heard was more range and ability to take trips conveniently. Humans aren't rational. Doesn't matter if they take the trips or not, only that they think they might.

 

[NewsCoulomb]

I also agree that the existing public charging networks do have adequate coverage in urban and suburban areas at least in the Los Angeles area. As EV adoption increases we'll of course need more but I think for the short term they should be investing more heavily in the inter-city corridors which is a major limitation for (non-Tesla) EVs today.

I actually disagree, there. I think the LA area has terrible coverage for public charging. The periphery of the county is okay, but the closer you get to DTLA, the more difficult it is to find charging. On one of my lollygagging trips back from LA, I decided to check out various chargers on the way, and every single one was either broken or had a line of EVs. One was a single DCFC literally surrounded by four EVs (two drivers still sitting in their cars). I didn't find an open DCFC until I hit Warner Center, and while I can't confirm, I think the Bolt EV owner who was leaving as I pulled in might have just been plugged in.

A friend actually just messaged me about his worst charging/travel experience ever. Apparently, coming back from El Segundo to Ventura took him several hours.

I did give input for cycle 2. I pointed out the dearth of charging infrastructure along most of route 395 which goes north-south through SE CA and NW NV on into SE OR.

I certainly understand the need for some DCFC in cities for apartment dwellers who have no L2 access on the premises, even though I will likely never use the ones in my city.

I also pointed out the dearth of charging in most of NV outside of the two major cities, but they will likely (wisely) concentrate on higher population density areas. Tesla has superchargers in NV all along I-80 as well as route 50 "the loneliest highway in the world". Also along major highways through other sparsely populated western states like WY and MT. One of the many things they did right. They understood that many people need to feel they can take a road trip even if they rarely do. Showing my converted ev at Earth Day for about 7 of the last 9 years, one of the comments I constantly heard was more range and ability to take trips conveniently. Humans aren't rational. Doesn't matter if they take the trips or not, only that they think they might.

Electrify America has recently opened two DCFC sites in NV along I-80 (Winnemucca and Elko) with a third under construction at Battle Mountain.

 

[tomw]

Yes, the third one is in Elko. All are at Walmart superstores, 4 DCFC at each, 150kW and 350kW. Just spoke with an EA rep today asking about the one in Elko. I plan a trip through there this summer and need to fully charge to make it to the next EA in Burley ID, 203 miles.

 

[Tokodave]

The EA website has the site at Rocker, just West of Butte Montana as live so I thought I'd go check it out just so I'm familiar with the process. Alas, their website is a bit ahead of things and if you'd arrived there hoping for a charge, you'd be on Plugshare and giving me a call to use my L2 at home. The only charger that was live was the Chademo. None of the plugs even had the plastic off. I called the help number and had a long and pleasant conversation with the woman on the other end as I explained the other charge stations showed on the screens as not available and the middle station screen wasn't even on. They have my number and said they'd give me a call when it's resolved.
Side note...it's been quite cold since my last charge, temps either well below zero or only up into the low teens...2.8mi/KwH.