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Discussion Starter #1
While the Bolt EV Premier comes with heated steering wheel and 4 heated seats, Model 3 SR+ comes with no heated steering wheel and only front heated seats... want rear heated seats, that's an extra $300. :(

 

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What's the problem?

Not buying the "package" that included heated seats saved Model 3 buyers $1,000s on initial purchase.
Now they have a chance to add it on after the sale if they feel it's worth having.

If you bought a used Model 3 that came without heated seats you can now add it.


I wish GM did that with their cars, I did not want the crappy Bose system and "lane keeper" (which is a joke), but I was forced to pay for them as part of the package that gave me the important safety features I wanted on my Bolt.

Elon got it right... Put all the equipment in every car, let the buyer (or even 2nd or 3rd owner) decide what they want to pay for. What other car manufacturer has the ability to make $$$ off the second or third owner of their products with zero outlay of any money at all? Get the owner to pay, and just send a software update to the car and instant features added at 100% profit for expenses you wrote off years ago. It's genius!

Do you realize how much income Tesla stands to make if they get the Full Self Drive software working to satisfaction? The hardware has been in all the cars they made since 2017, you just need to pay $7k for Elon to activate it... and there are plenty of eager Tesla owners ready to lay down their $$$ if he gets the AI software working as intended. Again 100% profit to Tesla!
 

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Discussion Starter #3
FSD will not be just $7K once it's to the level that many people start to opt-in. At that point, it makes the car a money maker, my guess is then the FSD price could double or triple.
 

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FSD will not be just $7K once it's to the level that many people start to opt-in. At that point, it makes the car a money maker, my guess is then the FSD price could double or triple.
Tesla doesn't get to set the price of full self drive in a vacuum. There are other self driving competitors that are further along than Tesla, and if the price is too high, people will walk away from Tesla and go with the competitors.

Maybe the tech will initially be expensive, but it will rapidly plummet in price. That's what happens with tech, it gets more affordable over time.
 

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FSD will not be just $7K once it's to the level that many people start to opt-in. At that point, it makes the car a money maker, my guess is then the FSD price could double or triple.
^ That's not likely, watch the "Tesla Autonomy Day 2019 - Full Self-Driving Autopilot - Complete Investor Conference Event" to get an idea where he's going and what the "master plan" is for FSD.
The low down from Tesla employees (including the rep I purchased my Model Y from last week) is that FSD after the sale would probably be about $1,000-$1,500 more then if you payed for it ($7K) when you purchased the vehicle.
 

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There are other self driving competitors that are further along than Tesla, and if the price is too high, people will walk away from Tesla and go with the competitors.
What competitor? I want specific names. Some companies are geofenced in areas and that doesn't count. Tesla is the best at real self-driving and their real world data is making them even better. No one is close right now.
 

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What competitor? I want specific names. Some companies are geofenced in areas and that doesn't count. Tesla is the best at real self-driving and their real world data is making them even better. No one is close right now.
That isn't what the experts in the field say. There's a lot of consensus out there that Waymo is way out ahead.

This is an old graphic that attempts to place who is ahead in the autonomous driving game.


I suggest you research the subject. There's a lot on it, and most sources don't even mention Tesla because they are so far behind.

I understand the motivation of some to want to support Tesla by giving them interest free loans on cars and features that don't exist yet, but it would be foolish to expect the earliest purchasers of full self drive will get the best deal. Technology doesn't get more expensive as time goes on, it gets more affordable. This has been demonstrated within Tesla itself, with some early customers perturbed that laggards got better deals. That's the way of things.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
That isn't what the experts in the field say. There's a lot of consensus out there that Waymo is way out ahead.

This is an old graphic that attempts to place who is ahead in the autonomous driving game.


I suggest you research the subject. There's a lot on it, and most sources don't even mention Tesla because they are so far behind.

I understand the motivation of some to want to support Tesla by giving them interest free loans on cars and features that don't exist yet, but it would be foolish to expect the earliest purchasers of full self drive will get the best deal. Technology doesn't get more expensive as time goes on, it gets more affordable. This has been demonstrated within Tesla itself, with some early customers perturbed that laggards got better deals. That's the way of things.
Any newer graphic? Looks like Waymo beat GM as of Q1 2019. Tesla still not in Top 10 on Navigant Research's list.

 

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I've got no horse in this race, and in my view anyone could charge out into the lead. My point is that Tesla doesn't have the corner on the AV market, so they can't price full self drive to the moon. I expect the tech to incrimentally improve, and some clear winners will either buy out companies, or those that are well behind will disappear. It will consolidate to perhaps 3 leading companies.
 

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While the Bolt EV Premier comes with heated steering wheel and 4 heated seats, Model 3 SR+ comes with no heated steering wheel and only front heated seats... want rear heated seats, that's an extra $300. :(

I wish I could unlock my rear heated seats for $300. But I can’t, because I got an LT. I didn’t want to spend an extra $4000 for things (though nice) I didn’t need.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I wish I could unlock my rear heated seats for $300. But I can’t, because I got an LT. I didn’t want to spend an extra $4000 for things (though nice) I didn’t need.
You can buy heated seat pads that run off the 12V for much less than that. But those tend not to heat as well.
 

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Tesla doesn't get to set the price of full self drive in a vacuum. There are other self driving competitors that are further along than Tesla, and if the price is too high, people will walk away from Tesla and go with the competitors.

Maybe the tech will initially be expensive, but it will rapidly plummet in price. That's what happens with tech, it gets more affordable over time.
I watched the Youtube posted here with the chip designer for the Tesla - when they decided to switch from Nvidia to their own chips. The guy made a point that Tesla's strategy is to make the Chips and hardware cheap and small enough to be included in every car. He did mention that other manufacturers are still experimenting with very large and costly systems (think fills up a whole trunk / costs a lot is heavy/ uses a lot of energy / uses a lot of sensors). Lidar vs no Lidar thats a whole different post!
 

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Well, Tesla has got to solve the problem of not being able to identify semis and fire trucks that are stopped before they can make the giant leap to full self drive. Elon seems to think it can be solved without LIDAR, but that remains to be seen.

Shrinking the size and cost of LIDAR could be an easier problem to solve than getting cameras reliable enough to have full control of the vehicle.

Tesla's future is pretty much entirely riding on their ability to solve this problem using cameras though. They've already sold full self driving, and they are way behind others that are using LIDAR. How would they get out of the hole they dug if they were unable to solve the issues using the hardware they've already deployed? AV is the future of the automotive market, not cranking out vehicles. Once AV begins to take off, we'll see "peak auto" follow shortly after.

I tend to think Tesla will solve the problem, but it's uncertain enough to me that I don't have the stomach to invest in the company.
 

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Do you realize how much income Tesla stands to make if they get the Full Self Drive software working to satisfaction? The hardware has been in all the cars they made since 2017, you just need to pay $7k for Elon to activate it... and there are plenty of eager Tesla owners ready to lay down their $$$ if he gets the AI software working as intended. Again 100% profit to Tesla!
Just to be clear, NONE of the current Tesla vehicles will EVER have true ”full self driving.” Everyone wants to focus on software and neural nets. Get those as perfect as you like, but they will never make up for the substandard sensor suite currently installed.
 

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I tend to think Tesla will solve the problem, but it's uncertain enough to me that I don't have the stomach to invest in the company.
My particular investment strategy are 4 areas; Index funds, Dividend growth investing, Value Investing, and #4 tech investing. I could have went with TSLA but went with other "lesser known" tech stocks like QCOM and ENPH. I guess I lump Tesla in with other companies such as Amazon and even Chipotle. I see the crazy PE ratios and the pricing of the stock just scares me away! Maybe that is a flaw of mine as an awful lot of people made an awful lot of money on all 3 "overvalued" companies (Amazon, Tesla and Chipotle all have done better than the index for sure). I think Jeff Bezos selling 4 Billion of his Stock shows he thinks it is overvalued.
 

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Hindsight... I avoided Bitcoin back when it was new because it's worth nothing, and will be worth nothing in the future, but in the meantime is worth a fortune. I wanted to buy Google during the IPO, but was too lazy to get serious about it.

Ah well, I like to make money by creating value, not speculation. Of course I'd buy Bitcoin had I have known, but workin' for a living isn't a bad thing either.
 

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I think Jeff Bezos selling 4 Billion of his Stock shows he thinks it is overvalued.
Or that he’s got bills to pay like the rest of us. His most expensive home purchase in Beverly Hills, Washington, DC and elsewhere isn’t free. How does he pay his many servants? It’s not with his looks.
 

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I've got no horse in this race, and in my view anyone could charge out into the lead. My point is that Tesla doesn't have the corner on the AV market, so they can't price full self drive to the moon. I expect the tech to incrimentally improve, and some clear winners will either buy out companies, or those that are well behind will disappear. It will consolidate to perhaps 3 leading companies.
If you want to ever buy a car with self driving Tesla will be the only car that could do that. All of the other self driving cars can only drive in mapped towns and require expensive lidar sensors. Tesla is going for true self driving, not geofenced cars in mapped cities. The sensors are fine for self driving for Teslas, they just need the ability to clean them in case of dirt/snow. Every article from the past few months has Tesla in the lead or right there. The data they are collecting is the reason why they will be the clear #1 by 2021.
 

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Back to the original subject, it can make sense for Tesla to minimize hardware differences to reduce the number of variants to build. Having rear seats with and without heaters costs extra to manage in manufacturing that it would reduce the savings of not buying the heater hardware for some cars. The unusual part is that they offered a software upgrade to use the existing hidden hardware capabilities, which is rare among car companies.

Indeed, touch screens allow car companies to reduce the number of variants of instrument panels, since buttons for optional functions like heated seats can be made present or absent in software (notice that the front heated seat buttons in the Bolt are on the touch screen), without requiring different instrument panel hardware to be managed during manufacturing.

Back to Tesla, reducing the number of variants in manufacturing is likely why the originally-planned non-premium interior and non-glass roof in the base model Model 3 are no longer available (if there ever were any sold with the non-premium interior and/or non-glass roof). So the hardware variants of the Model 3 appear to be:

  • battery size (and associated suspension variations to account for different battery weight)
  • stereo hardware differences and floor mat presence between partial premium and premium interior
  • RWD versus AWD (and associated changes like frunk size)
  • performance suspension or not
  • colors
  • wheel and tire options
Of the first four possible differences, the web site only offers the following combinations:

  • SR+, partial premium, RWD, non-performance
  • LR, premium, AWD, non-performance
  • LR, premium, AWD, performance
 

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I'm curious if Tesla is still putting the same capacity battery into the base Model 3? If so, that means it has an extra large battery buffer, so it should degrade a little slower. Not only that, but the range will not drop during the initial battery degradation. At some point, the SR+ range should drop down to that of the SR.

My idea was to purchase the SR, and then cut the wires to the seat heaters and wire in my own switch and fuse. It would also need to go through some PWM circuit so the temperature could be dialed in. Maybe $300 is right at the price point where I'd buy in rather than go through that hassle.

If I had an EV without seat heaters, I'd install them myself because they are cheap. I consider seat heaters to be necessary equipment on an EV.
 
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