Chevy Bolt EV Forum banner

1 - 20 of 73 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
447 Posts
Is it really interesting that it takes 10 years to recoup the gulf of a price difference between an EV and ICE? That the monthly payments are going to be a lot higher?

What's missed here is that if one is comparing a $55k EV to a $36K ICE that folks who are shopping for cars in the mid $30K range isn't going to bother to look at a $55k car despite the fact that total costs over 10 years are even.

ga2500ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,603 Posts
I tend not to like these comparisons, because there is always the "apples/oranges" problem, and then the fact that no 2 individuals have exactly the same needs, driving habits, petrol/fuel prices, etc.

Way too many variables at play to answer this question, which is why I created the vehicle cost of ownership calculator linked in my signature.

The only general conclusion is that the longer you own an EV, the more likely it is to have been more cost effective than an ICE. Most owners only keep a vehicle for less than 7 years.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
33 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Is it really interesting that it takes 10 years to recoup the gulf of a price difference between an EV and ICE? That the monthly payments are going to be a lot higher?

What's missed here is that if one is comparing a $55k EV to a $36K ICE that folks who are shopping for cars in the mid $30K range isn't going to bother to look at a $55k car despite the fact that total costs over 10 years are even.

ga2500ev
You are making a good point, but even with the price difference, over 10 years you come out ahead with an electric. but it's more than that, it's about the CO2 which was not released in the environment. that's the important aspect of the article "the tons of CO2 not released"...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,603 Posts
You are making a good point, but even with the price difference, over 10 years you come out ahead with an electric. but it's more than that, it's about the CO2 which was not released in the environment. that's the important aspect of the article "the tons of CO2 not released"...
You're new here, so welcome. That said, you've missed the prior discussions which talk about both cost and environmental benefits of EV vs ICE in depth.

Your comment about reducing CO2 emissions is too simplistic though, because it doesn't consider entrained energy expenditure to manufacture the vehicle. That isn't to say an EV couldn't reduce CO2 emissions, but it isn't a straightforward conclusion that EV is always better than ICE in this regard. Likewise, total cost of ownership isn't necessarily in favor of an EV either. There's so many variables that it has to be evaluated on an individual basis.

Here's a Ted Talk on the topic:

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
328 Posts
I like the point of looking at the entire lifecycle of a product, but I don't agree that we shouldn't be developing electric cars now. We need to develop the technology and know-how now and get the ball rolling so that we'll be ready when it is time.

Also, what about nuclear energy? Furthermore, he neglected to mention possible efforts in carbon capture. Capturing CO2 from a point source like a power plant is a he11 of a lot easier than from millions of point sources (ICE vehicles).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,374 Posts
A big issue with these comparisons is, while ICE proponents are eager to consider an EV's "long tailpipe," they mostly refuse to engage in any discussions about an ICE vehicle's "long tailpipe," which is often considerably worse than any EV.

The no-brainer from a societal cost perspective is the difference in criterion pollution (as opposed to a simple GHG comparison). Outside of tire particles, which are roughly the same for both (depending on a number of factors), ICE vehicles produce significantly larger quantities of criterion pollution, which impact the health and wellness of any individuals who live in the region.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,603 Posts
I'd recommend giving the video a watch. He doesn't propose abandoning EVs, but makes the argument that advancing technology and our fleet makeup is going to involve a mixture of solutions. EV or bust is ultimately a counterproductive mindset to the goal of reducing CO2 emissions.

As I've been saying for some time now, I expect plug-in hybrids to become more commonplace as a bridge technology. It leverages the strengths of both technologies to deliver high efficiency, power, and range. I keep mentioning the anticipated RAV4 Prime, which has 40 miles of EV range, gets 40 MPG in hybrid mode, and has 300 horsepower. It could possibly even cost less than the hybrid version considering it qualifies for the full $7,500 federal tax credit and possibly some local incentives. The Prius Prime is the 2nd highest selling plug-in vehicle in the US, with the Model 3 being the only vehicle to outsell it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
33 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
You're new here, so welcome. That said, you've missed the prior discussions which talk about both cost and environmental benefits of EV vs ICE in depth.

Your comment about reducing CO2 emissions is too simplistic though, because it doesn't consider entrained energy expenditure to manufacture the vehicle. That isn't to say an EV couldn't reduce CO2 emissions, but it isn't a straightforward conclusion that EV is always better than ICE in this regard. Likewise, total cost of ownership isn't necessarily in favor of an EV either. There's so many variables that it has to be evaluated on an individual basis.

Here's a Ted Talk on the topic:

It might sound simplistic, but to me it all about the tail pipe, tons of CO2 not released. Here in Ontario the AC or DC i buy is nuclear or Hydro electric, the co2 to make the batteries in EV and ICE cars is most likely very high i get that, but to me 50 tons of CO2 not released after 10 years is major contribution on my part in the decarbonation process...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,603 Posts
It might sound simplistic, but to me it all about the tail pipe, tons of CO2 not released. Here in Ontario the AC or DC i buy is nuclear or Hydro electric, the co2 to make the batteries in EV and ICE cars is most likely very high i get that, but to me 50 tons of CO2 not released after 10 years is major contribution on my part in the decarbonation process...
The relevant terms I heard is "me" and "here". None of us are you, and few of us are there. As I stated, "cheaper" and "less CO2 emissions" are complex topics requiring individual evaluation, not a blanket declaration. I'm not arguing that you're not better off with an EV, only that others are not necessarily better off with an EV. I'm in a similar boat as you, with cheap electricity that is largely renewable.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
33 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
The relevant terms I heard is "me" and "here". None of us are you, and few of us are there. As I stated, "cheaper" and "less CO2 emissions" are complex topics requiring individual evaluation, not a blanket declaration. I'm not arguing that you're not better off with an EV, only that others are not necessarily better off with an EV. I'm in a similar boat as you, with cheap electricity that is largely renewable.
Me is the choice i make and it is my choice and this choice to me is valid and stands up to my own personal views and research i have done on the subject. Here is Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, it's my personal opinion, lets leave it at that. I'm writing what i personally think is right and less co2 is right one way or the other. I think i'm going to step outside and smoke a reefer, co2 included...cheers
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
27 Posts
I traded a $30K (new purch price) 2018 Chev Equinox for a $30K 2019 Chev Bolt which seems to be a more apples to apples comparison of EV vs ICE. The Bolt is smaller but about the same gross weight. The Bolt is just tons of fun to drive, and convenient with "gas ups" in my garage, and costs next to nothing to charge with my roof solar panels. I think the Bolt is big win-win. Now I do have a Buick Enclave for those long trips though with cargo.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
33 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
I traded a $30K (new purch price) 2018 Chev Equinox for a $30K 2019 Chev Bolt which seems to be a more apples to apples comparison of EV vs ICE. The Bolt is smaller but about the same gross weight. The Bolt is just tons of fun to drive, and convenient with "gas ups" in my garage, and costs next to nothing to charge with my roof solar panels. I think the Bolt is big win-win. Now I do have a Buick Enclave for those long trips though with cargo.
If I do go the Bolt route i hope my trade in value of my 2018 LT Volt will be around 60% of original price. The wife is pushing me to go to the dealership, she likes the visibility the Bolt offers and economy. She also finds that the cars looks fits her look “driving position”. But the Volt is such a great car, drives and handles so well it has a bit of under steer but all and all very nice. The only problem I have with the Volt is getting in and out, its low and at my age I would rather slid in and out.
BBreck the addition of solar panels made the purchase of the Bolt a no brainer, smart move on your part.
Long trips in a Bolt won’t be a problem we have DC chargers every 100km up here, they are very helpful during our very cold winters, on the Volt I would loose close to 35% of the charge due to the cold...
 

·
Registered
2018 Bolt EV Premier Nightfall Gray
Joined
·
98 Posts
I drove a Ford Fusion Hybrid for 5 years, 150k miles. It cost about $32K new, and fuel saved me about $150/mo vs the Audi A6 it replaced.

Fast forward to 2018 when I purchased a Bolt for roughy $31K new (after $7500 Fed, $5K state tax credits). So, call it even on the car it replaced after installing L2 @home.

My commute is 130mi/day, I average about 30K miles per year. I pay about $130/mo less for fuel than the Fusion, $280 less than the Audi. I figure I am at least $3500 ahead on "fuel" cost after 26 months.

Maintenance cost over 57K miles in two years, $800. $700 of that was new tires at 50K miles, the remainder was wiper blades, cabin air filter, and one tire rotation (the rest were free). In the same period with the Fusion, I would have paid at least $1200 or more with oil and filter changes, tires, wipers and air filters. So, I am ahead at least $400 here too.

Depreciation is not really a consideration, because my expectation is I will retire with this car, and with COVID, I am putting minimal miles on it. At the current rate, I will average less than 5K miles per year unless I have to start going in to the office again. I may never have to replace this car!

As for emissions, I don't get hung up on that. I know EV are better than ICE in that regard, and my utility is 40% renewable now, 2 years away from closing its last coal plant, and less than 10 from being 100% renewable. So, my Bolt keeps getting cleaner. I am pleased to be doing my little part to clean the air, but I consider that to be a fortunate side effect. For me, the economic benefits were the reason for going electric.

If I return to a normal commute, the 10 year savings for me will come out to at least $15-20k versus a hybrid, and close to the original net price of the Bolt versus the cost of operating an ICE like the A6.
 

·
Registered
2018 Bolt EV Premier Nightfall Gray
Joined
·
98 Posts
I'd recommend giving the video a watch. He doesn't propose abandoning EVs, but makes the argument that advancing technology and our fleet makeup is going to involve a mixture of solutions. EV or bust is ultimately a counterproductive mindset to the goal of reducing CO2 emissions.

As I've been saying for some time now, I expect plug-in hybrids to become more commonplace as a bridge technology. It leverages the strengths of both technologies to deliver high efficiency, power, and range. I keep mentioning the anticipated RAV4 Prime, which has 40 miles of EV range, gets 40 MPG in hybrid mode, and has 300 horsepower. It could possibly even cost less than the hybrid version considering it qualifies for the full $7,500 federal tax credit and possibly some local incentives. The Prius Prime is the 2nd highest selling plug-in vehicle in the US, with the Model 3 being the only vehicle to outsell it.
PHEV are a compromise solution. Long Range BEV make PHEV sort of irrelevant, at least GM sees it that way apparently.

I have a few family members with PHEV, they like the cars, but are eager to get into a full BEV.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
928 Posts
Its my opinion to be wrong. So lets leave it at that. Shall we.

-No, this is a discussion forum, for discussing things. So no its not going to get left at that. Its going to get discussed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
447 Posts
You are making a good point, but even with the price difference, over 10 years you come out ahead with an electric. but it's more than that, it's about the CO2 which was not released in the environment. that's the important aspect of the article "the tons of CO2 not released"...
People who are making financial decisions are generally not taking environmental impact into account. If the impact on the environment was the most critical factor, then the TCO wouldn't matter, would it?

ga2500ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,603 Posts
PHEV are a compromise solution. Long Range BEV make PHEV sort of irrelevant, at least GM sees it that way apparently.

I have a few family members with PHEV, they like the cars, but are eager to get into a full BEV.
Everything everywhere is a compromise solution. Name a single thing that has zero compromises.

My aim is to go full EV too after having owned a Prius Plug-in. I'm comfortable with that decision because I have plenty of other vehicles I could use on longer trips.

Time will tell if my prediction of increasing plug-in hybrid sales is right, and I'm not determined for that to end up being the bridge technology. It just makes the most financial sense and possibly environmental sense given current federal incentives and where battery technology currently is.

People who are making financial decisions are generally not taking environmental impact into account. If the impact on the environment was the most critical factor, then the TCO wouldn't matter, would it?
ga2500ev
As I stated above, absolutely everything is a compromise, so I don't think we can assume people who prioritize fiances don't give consideration to environmental impact. It's like people who say that things should be made as safe as possible. There are zero things made "as safe as possible". Everything can be made safer, and confining yourself to a padded room would be safest... though you could increase the padding a bit...

My point is that every decision has a cost, and due diligence is weighing the various costs before making a decision. How many people are most concerned with making the best decision given all the data they can get their hands on, vs those who merely want to appear to their peers as having made the best decision? Who even looks at data when making decisions? What percent of commercials deliver detailed specs to the consumer vs make appeals to emotion?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
33 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
Its my opinion to be wrong. So lets leave it at that. Shall we.

-No, this is a discussion forum, for discussing things. So no its not going to get left at that. Its going to get discussed.
Hey Hatchy, are you telling me I don’t have the right to my opinion or discuss my personal opinion on the said subject, don’t tell me my opinion is wrong. Tell me I don’t agree with your opinion or point of view and why. So lets leave it at that. Shall we...cheers
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
33 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
People who are making financial decisions are generally not taking environmental impact into account. If the impact on the environment was the most critical factor, then the TCO wouldn't matter, would it?

ga2500ev
I think its time people start making environmental decisions and making them quick because just this weekend temperatures hit 30C at the 60 parallel, that is bad and it’s just the start of summer...
 
1 - 20 of 73 Posts
Top