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One of the interesting things to me is that, and maybe I’m alone, but ten years is a loooooong commitment for me to make for anything that’s not a relationship or parenthood. I can’t imagine staying at a job or house for ten years, let alone owning and using a car. To me, a car is maybe a three or four year commitment, tops, then on to the next one. I’ve had my Bolt for ten months and am already envisioning which EV I want to move on to next. Maybe it’s a Bolt EUV, maybe the Model 3 or Y or maybe it’s a RAV 4 Prime. I think most of the population can’t envision a ten-year coat comparison and getting excited about saving a couple thousand dollars for a 3,650 day commitment.
 

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Discussion Starter #42
Why should utility payers or tax payers fund a system you don't need, and which doesn't benefit the utility or tax payers in any way?

I say that after having heavily benefited from State, Utility, and Federal funds for my solar install. They shouldn't have offered the money, because financially sound folks like myself don't need it, and nobody else benefits. It's the definition of a regressive program.
Redpoint, you say that they should not have offered the money and that you are financially well off, well give some of that coin to the local food bank or a charity of your choice, and go from regressive to progressive and it will make a lot feel good.
 

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Here in the North we subsidize the purchase at the Federal level and also subsidize in some provinces. The Feds subsidize large emitters of co2 to get emissions down. As a country we signed agreements to lower our emissions ie the Paris Treaty, we made a commitment and most of the world has followed, Europe is miles ahead of everybody in their implementation, Norway and Denmark are making huge strides. These countries made a choice to change and look to the future, and subsidies are used as a platform to leap into the future. The US backed out of the Paris Treaty and in my opinion have wasted four years. Due to our geography and low population grants are needed to create an ecosystem that will support a change. It’s two visions, yours is one that it’s up to the individuals to promote change and create prosperity. Ours is that, as a collective we use the funds we generate to create prosperity and change. On the question of solar I would be spending a lot of time on the roof cleaning snow of the panels and for four months of year I would be looking at minimal electrical output.
I'm putting my solar on the ground on a system that will pivot/tilt to maximize exposure as much as possible to the sun. I have the same snow issue here.
 

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Here in the North we subsidize the purchase at the Federal level and also subsidize in some provinces. The Feds subsidize large emitters of co2 to get emissions down. As a country we signed agreements to lower our emissions ie the Paris Treaty, we made a commitment and most of the world has followed, Europe is miles ahead of everybody in their implementation, Norway and Denmark are making huge strides. These countries made a choice to change and look to the future, and subsidies are used as a platform to leap into the future. The US backed out of the Paris Treaty and in my opinion have wasted four years. Due to our geography and low population grants are needed to create an ecosystem that will support a change. It’s two visions, yours is one that it’s up to the individuals to promote change and create prosperity. Ours is that, as a collective we use the funds we generate to create prosperity and change. On the question of solar I would be spending a lot of time on the roof cleaning snow of the panels and for four months of year I would be looking at minimal electrical output.
I have the same issue here (Washington State) with solar in the winter, but it's not too bad in the summer. I can see thousands, literally I think, of windmills from my house. They're along the Columbia River and look like a weird forest from here. At night most of the red lights on them blink in unison. They're supposed to start building another set this year just east of us. 500 feet tall to the top of the rotors. It doesn't take much wind to get them to rotate and we get plenty of wind year round. I think they've been pretty successful.
 

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I mentioned the utility company, not tax payers. I'm against tax payers subsidizing a solar install and also for subsidizing an EV purchase. No one I know 'needs' an EV but many states drop the panties of the taxpayers to help people who actually 'can' afford the car, yet gives them a **** ton of subsidies. When I see states give thousands of dollars to offset a purchase, I just shake my head. Want to pay the highest vehicle registration fee possible, register an EV in my state. I don't support the concept of the government helping someone buy a car under any circumstance. I brought up the ROI because my utility provider has put every possible roadblock in front of the concept of 'selling' power back to the grid. They have imposed surcharges into the formula under the basis that just because a solar powered house is using sun power, the utility has to be available to provide power to them just the same for times and days that they can't produce sun based power. I'm not trying to debate it, I'm installing it for the simple reason that I always wanted it. To my naive thinking, solar benefits the utility but they disagree. They also voted for the 3rd time to NOT support EV's in any way in April. They don't subsidize EVSE's, they won't integrate with them to control them for the common good nor will they create any time of use or EV charging discount. I bring this up so those in states, like California that get all these things including HOV access (we don't) understand that not every state has these programs and to be aware.
The utility may benefit from some solar on the grid, but they pay 0-4 cents per kWh on the wholesale market (perhaps more during peak). Every install of solar onto the grid reduces the value of the next added solar because it increases production volatility and increases risk of overloading infrastructure. Looking at my production chart throughout a typical day, it looks like the rocky mountains. Within 30 seconds I'll increase production by 10x, then reduce it by 10x, with constant variability second by second. Considering the grid must produce just the amount of electricity demanded every second, no more, no less, this creates a huge challenge at scale.

Anyhow, not knocking your decision, or my decision to take advantage of regressive policy that benefits the more well off, just challenging the assumption some have that utilities are nefarious and incompetent when they oppose expanding solar, or paying retail prices for electricity they can get at wholesale. Utilities employ bright folks, some of whom have PhDs in electrical engineering. One of my tenants had such a degree and was responsible for creating contingency plans for outages and underproduction scenarios.

Redpoint, you say that they should not have offered the money and that you are financially well off, well give some of that coin to the local food bank or a charity of your choice, and go from regressive to progressive and it will make a lot feel good.
Not the subject I care to talk about because it easy gets construed as boasting about virtue, but a year ago I was giving 30% gross income to charity. At the moment it's closer to 10%, but I've got no plans to expand my standard of living as my means increase. I created a large savings as a single guy earning $40k in my 20s, and my frugality continues into my 30s as my income has increased.

My dream would be to own a successful business, hire hardworking and responsible individuals, and compensate them well to help them achieve their dreams.
 

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The utility may benefit from some solar on the grid, but they pay 0-4 cents per kWh on the wholesale market (perhaps more during peak). Every install of solar onto the grid reduces the value of the next added solar because it increases production volatility and increases risk of overloading infrastructure. Looking at my production chart throughout a typical day, it looks like the rocky mountains. Within 30 seconds I'll increase production by 10x, then reduce it by 10x, with constant variability second by second. Considering the grid must produce just the amount of electricity demanded every second, no more, no less, this creates a huge challenge at scale.

Anyhow, not knocking your decision, or my decision to take advantage of regressive policy that benefits the more well off, just challenging the assumption some have that utilities are nefarious and incompetent when they oppose expanding solar, or paying retail prices for electricity they can get at wholesale. Utilities employ bright folks, some of whom have PhDs in electrical engineering. One of my tenants had such a degree and was responsible for creating contingency plans for outages and underproduction scenarios.



Not the subject I care to talk about because it easy gets construed as boasting about virtue, but a year ago I was giving 30% gross income to charity. At the moment it's closer to 10%, but I've got no plans to expand my standard of living as my means increase. I created a large savings as a single guy earning $40k in my 20s, and my frugality continues into my 30s as my income has increased.

My dream would be to own a successful business, hire hardworking and responsible individuals, and compensate them well to help them achieve their dreams.
That makes sense. I get it and applaud your generosity. My state offers nothing in terms of incentives and isn't alone though it might be the minority. As for life in general, I have about the same experience, but my first dream job was to be an astronaut and that didn't work out, then I wanted to be a doctor but I didn't get good grades in biology so I took my backup career and got a government job right out of college and for the last 10 years I've averaged $77k in overtime alone. My pension is at 100% at 52, which is based on the average of the 3 highest years which are all over $200k due to ridiculous amounts of overtime. I wish I had picked the City of Milwaukee because they are fully vested and eligible after 25 years of service and there are guys taking the full ride pension in the mid 40's. So in the government sector, for positions that have overtime potential and minimum with call outs, it's a game to have 3 huge years but when you have one, you get greedy and think you can do better the next year. It's a vicious circle but I'd lose my mind if I watched 20% of my retirement go away in the stock market or hear stories of 401K's that lose value which I just don't understand how that can be good.

As for now, I've got 18 340W panels and a second meter installed for 'selling' the excess back. My goal is to run off Solar during the day for live consumption AND charging the Tesla Powerwalls. Then run off the Tesla Powerwalls at night. On days where there's limited solar production, the Tesla Powerwalls will run the house for the day and the night. Only taking power from the grid if they get below 30% and then only during Time of Use periods. If everything is sized correctly, I should be fine. They tell me I can run 6 days on the Powerwalls alone. If I need more panels, I'll install another bank of 9. The panels are really cheap, my Uncle works for Suniva and he's handling that part, but I don't know if Suniva are good panels or not so there is that. I had to drive to Atlanta to pick the 18 up and that wasn't fun. I didn't take the Bolt.
 

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Discussion Starter #47
The utility may benefit from some solar on the grid, but they pay 0-4 cents per kWh on the wholesale market (perhaps more during peak). Every install of solar onto the grid reduces the value of the next added solar because it increases production volatility and increases risk of overloading infrastructure. Looking at my production chart throughout a typical day, it looks like the rocky mountains. Within 30 seconds I'll increase production by 10x, then reduce it by 10x, with constant variability second by second. Considering the grid must produce just the amount of electricity demanded every second, no more, no less, this creates a huge challenge at scale.

Anyhow, not knocking your decision, or my decision to take advantage of regressive policy that benefits the more well off, just challenging the assumption some have that utilities are nefarious and incompetent when they oppose expanding solar, or paying retail prices for electricity they can get at wholesale. Utilities employ bright folks, some of whom have PhDs in electrical engineering. One of my tenants had such a degree and was responsible for creating contingency plans for outages and underproduction scenarios.



Not the subject I care to talk about because it easy gets construed as boasting about virtue, but a year ago I was giving 30% gross income to charity. At the moment it's closer to 10%, but I've got no plans to expand my standard of living as my means increase. I created a large savings as a single guy earning $40k in my 20s, and my frugality continues into my 30s as my income has increased.

My dream would be to own a successful business, hire hardworking and responsible individuals, and compensate them well to help them achieve their dreams.
I commend you on your generosity towards the less fortunate in our society, we who have more should do our part to nurture that environment, kudos my friend.
 

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Discussion Starter #48
One of the interesting things to me is that, and maybe I’m alone, but ten years is a loooooong commitment for me to make for anything that’s not a relationship or parenthood. I can’t imagine staying at a job or house for ten years, let alone owning and using a car. To me, a car is maybe a three or four year commitment, tops, then on to the next one. I’ve had my Bolt for ten months and am already envisioning which EV I want to move on to next. Maybe it’s a Bolt EUV, maybe the Model 3 or Y or maybe it’s a RAV 4 Prime. I think most of the population can’t envision a ten-year coat comparison and getting excited about saving a couple thousand dollars for a 3,650 day commitment.
I can understand your logic, but some of us might be financially constrained or live on fixed incomes so flipping cars or houses is not an option. The ten years in the opening article was just a timeline, if you flip your car after 5 years and purchase another EV and hold it for 5 years you will be in the 50 tons of co2 for 10 years not released in the atmosphere. With regards to the RAV 4 prime there is a one year wait up here...
 

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I always wonder whether these articles take into account the full carbon footprint of gasoline including the emissions related to mining the oil in the first place, refining the oil to gasoline, trucking that gasoline to individual stations, production and mixing of gasoline additives, the motor oil consumed by ICE vehicles, the maintenance involved with running a gas station, runnning and maintaining state run emissions test programs including running the test stations, etc. I also try not to forget that as the world moves away from coal and more sustainable energy, your car will automatically get "more green" as a result.

Mike
 

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I always wonder whether these articles take into account the full carbon footprint of gasoline including the emissions related to mining the oil in the first place, refining the oil to gasoline, trucking that gasoline to individual stations, production and mixing of gasoline additives, the motor oil consumed by ICE vehicles, the maintenance involved with running a gas station, runnning and maintaining state run emissions test programs including running the test stations, etc. I also try not to forget that as the world moves away from coal and more sustainable energy, your car will automatically get "more green" as a result.

Mike
An economist friend at Bonneville Power calculated the carbon burden of a wind generator manufactured in a coal-powered plant in China, shipped by rail on a coal burning locomotive, loaded onto a bunker fuel burning ship going halfway around the world, loaded onto a diesel tractor and hauled to a site prepared by diesel burning .earthmovers, installed on a concrete pad poured by diesel mixers, power lines strung by diesel equipment and maintained by workers driving diesel trucks. His calculations were over its 18-year-utilization, it would never generate enough electricity to repay the carbon debt.

jack vines
 

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I can understand your logic, but some of us might be financially constrained or live on fixed incomes so flipping cars or houses is not an option. The ten years in the opening article was just a timeline, if you flip your car after 5 years and purchase another EV and hold it for 5 years you will be in the 50 tons of co2 for 10 years not released in the atmosphere. With regards to the RAV 4 prime there is a one year wait up here...
Yeah, makes sense. I certainly understand where you’re coming from and the idea of constantly being under a car payment isn’t ideal, but circumstances change fast. We had an old Jetta, then had kids and needed an SUV, then my paid-for Prius died, then my commute tripled and then I needed a car to take over the Bay Bridge, so HOV access became very appealing and so forth. So I just cant imagine getting a car and planning in keeping it for ten years. The Bolt could be that car, possibly, but life comes at you fast sometimes and necessitates a change in vehicle or living situation.
 

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Discussion Starter #52
An economist friend at Bonneville Power calculated the carbon burden of a wind generator manufactured in a coal-powered plant in China, shipped by rail on a coal burning locomotive, loaded onto a bunker fuel burning ship going halfway around the world, loaded onto a diesel tractor and hauled to a site prepared by diesel burning .earthmovers, installed on a concrete pad poured by diesel mixers, power lines strung by diesel equipment and maintained by workers driving diesel trucks. His calculations were over its 18-year-utilization, it would never generate enough electricity to repay the carbon debt.

jack vines
That’s why we should build that technology here in North America, lower the carbon footprint and add those jobs. We have outsourced for far to long just to save a few bucks. I think those days are coming to an end, just look what happened during Covid, we were all depending on one source China for masks and PPE, the western world got caught with its pant down. China can turn off the taps for all kinds of products, medicine is the big one. Let’s start relying on ourselves and intern lower the carbon footprint, and put the economy on a more solid path...
 

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Discussion Starter #53
Yeah, makes sense. I certainly understand where you’re coming from and the idea of constantly being under a car payment isn’t ideal, but circumstances change fast. We had an old Jetta, then had kids and needed an SUV, then my paid-for Prius died, then my commute tripled and then I needed a car to take over the Bay Bridge, so HOV access became very appealing and so forth. So I just cant imagine getting a car and planning in keeping it for ten years. The Bolt could be that car, possibly, but life comes at you fast sometimes and necessitates a change in vehicle or living situation.
Sometimes life does comes fast, I think you made the right choice with the Bolt it got you in the fast lane on the bridge. But I found as we get older we look at material things differently and choices become easier due to experience, just don’t let your ego gain control.
 

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To me, a car is maybe a three or four year commitment, tops, then on to the next one.
What works for you works for you, but always being at the killer front end of the depreciation curve makes transportation much more expensive. The guy who buys your three-year-old car gets the next three years of transport at a relative bargain.



then had kids and needed an SUV,
Most with kids really need a van, but today most buy SUVs with less space, less utility, often less economical. It's a free market.

But I found as we get older we look at material things differently and choices become easier due to experience, just don’t let your ego gain control.
For true. At some point, even if one is not wealthy, he will realize he has more money than he has time.

jack vines[/quote]
 

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The relevant terms I heard is "me" and "here". None of us are you, and few of us are there. As I stated, "cheaper" and "less CO2 emissions" are complex topics requiring individual evaluation, not a blanket declaration. I'm not arguing that you're not better off with an EV, only that others are not necessarily better off with an EV. I'm in a similar boat as you, with cheap electricity that is largely renewable.
You do know that you don’t live in a bubble when it comes about the CO2 emissions, right ? There is no boarder that can stop it to expand everywhere... it is not county/state/country related. "Your" tail pipe has an impact on "me" even though "you" are at thousands of miles maybe. The vice-versa is true too. So let’s stop about "us" and "them", because when it’s about climate and the quality of the air, only idiots can think that it’s all about boundaries.
 

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Trains don't run on coal. I take it your friend was pulling your leg.
Is it possible you haven't been to China? Feature: The last of the steam train drivers - Xinhua | English.news.cn I have several times; ridden on coal fired steam locomotives and the mag-lev bullet train. China has much of the best and the worst of old and new tech. Every year there are fewer steam locomotives in China, but many of the first generation wind turbines got their ride to the docks on coal burning locomotives.

jack vines
 

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One of the interesting things to me is that, and maybe I’m alone, but ten years is a loooooong commitment for me to make for anything that’s not a relationship or parenthood. I can’t imagine staying at a job or house for ten years, let alone owning and using a car.
So you're a change for change's sake kinda guy. OK.

But you don't need to "commit" to a car to own it a long time. You just need to look at your car and say to yourself "is this still doing what I need it to do and not costing me too much to keep running?". If the answer is yes, then you don't have a need for a new car. That's all. You get to answer "no" at any time, no comittment needed.

If alleviating boredom is worth it to you to spend money on a new car, then fine. But don't imagine that it's some sort of inviolable contract to keep your old car or that there's a reason borne of necessity to let it go.
 

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...just don’t read my posts and don’t post comments, it’s simple. Just stay away from Electro Volt posts and comments. By the way are you a moderator for this forum if not have nice day and a bowl of cornflakes.
There you go telling folks what to do again. I'll read what I want and type what I want. Maybe its you who needs to stop reading posts that upset you.
 
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