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Discussion Starter #1
Does the following summarize the current availability of EVSE head converters in the US?

(EVSE head -> car)

SAE J1772 -> Tesla (L2): $95 (included with Tesla vehicles)
CHaDeMO -> Tesla (DCFC): $495
Tesla -> SAE J1772 (L2): ~$200+
 

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Does the following summarize the current availability of EVSE head converters in the US?

(EVSE head -> car)

SAE J1772 -> Tesla (L2): $95 (included with Tesla vehicles)
CHaDeMO -> Tesla (DCFC): $495
Tesla -> SAE J1772 (L2): ~$200+
I believe the CHaDeMo -> Tesla adapter is now only $450.

There are some more exotic ones, but they're rare/expensive. One converts 240V NEMA 14-50 (or J-1772) to CCS or CHaDeMo for example - an interesting concept but at $3-$4k not very practical.
 

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There are some more exotic ones, but they're rare/expensive. One converts 240V NEMA 14-50 (or J-1772) to CCS or CHaDeMo for example - an interesting concept but at $3-$4k not very practical.
Such a weird device since the EV has built in rectifier. Though, I guess this will allow you to charge your Bolt at 9.6KW (NEMA 14-50 drawing 40A then this device converts it to DC for your car... thus allowing you to exceed the 32A/7.2KW limit using NEMA 14-50 AC.
 

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Such a weird device since the EV has built in rectifier. Though, I guess this will allow you to charge your Bolt at 9.6KW (NEMA 14-50 drawing 40A then this device converts it to DC for your car... thus allowing you to exceed the 32A/7.2KW limit using NEMA 14-50 AC.
I think these were nominally intended for vehicles with slower built-in L2 chargers, e.g. the Mitsubishi i-MIEV which was limited to 20A L2 charging. But I'm skeptical that many people have actually bought and used them.
 

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I think these were nominally intended for vehicles with slower built-in L2 chargers, e.g. the Mitsubishi i-MIEV which was limited to 20A L2 charging. But I'm skeptical that many people have actually bought and used them.
Yes. There are a few folks with Leafs with 3.3 kW OBC (well, actually 3.8 kW max from the wall) who use 10kw CCS Chademo Portable Charger - EV Fast Charger - ShenZhen SETEC Power Co., Ltd. so that they can charger faster.

At least one of those guys is on one or more Leaf FB groups I'm on. Samuel Brown is example of one of them. I just found another one of his posts: Nissan LEAF Owners Group (unfortunately, private). He can charge faster on L2 stations than his OBC allows for.
 

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I think these were nominally intended for vehicles with slower built-in L2 chargers, e.g. the Mitsubishi i-MIEV which was limited to 20A L2 charging. But I'm skeptical that many people have actually bought and used them.
That's exactly the case. In the early/mid 2010's vehicles like the Chevy Spark, Leaf, and i-MIEV were limited to 3.3 kW L2 charging. Each though had DCFC options. The DCFC listed above was a 10 kW model. There was also a 20 kW model, which even today would outpace any AC EVSE and any onboard charger.

BTW it's not really an adapter. It's an actual portable DCFC charging station. Eventually I figure the public charging infrastructure will get to DCFC everywhere at varying speeds from 10 kW to 350 kW and EVs will eventually lose their onboard chargers for good.

ga2500ev
 

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Discussion Starter #7
BTW it's not really an adapter. It's an actual portable DCFC charging station. Eventually I figure the public charging infrastructure will get to DCFC everywhere at varying speeds from 10 kW to 350 kW and EVs will eventually lose their onboard chargers for good.
For many EV owners, being able to charge at home overnight is more convenient than going to a public charging station, so removing onboard chargers used for 120V/240V AC charging presumably would have to be accompanied by the availability of external chargers (120V/240V AC or DCFC) for home use.
 

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For many EV owners, being able to charge at home overnight is more convenient than going to a public charging station, so removing onboard chargers used for 120V/240V AC charging presumably would have to be accompanied by the availability of external chargers (120V/240V AC or DCFC) for home use.
Absolutely. That 10kw DCFC would be an example of a device that would be installed in homes.

ga2500ev
 

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Absolutely. That 10kw DCFC would be an example of a device that would be installed in homes.
The problem is that home DCFC chargers are going to be a lot more expensive than a 120/240V EVSE because they require all the high power circuitry needed to rectify the AC current, raise the voltage level, and adjust that voltage level on request from the car. A conventional EVSE, on the other hand, is really not all that much more than a glorified on/off switch.

I suspect that home DCFCs are going to be a hard sell given the high price point, which is fully visible to the consumer. The cost of the car's built-in charger, on the other hand, is buried in the much larger cost of the vehicle.

And the same comment on cost applies to installations in condos or commercial businesses like hotels. It's cheap to install 240V charging, and it's a good solution for hotels where clients are going to be parked overnight anyway.

I don't see in-car chargers going away in the foreseeable future.
 

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The problem is that home DCFC chargers are going to be a lot more expensive than a 120/240V EVSE because they require all the high power circuitry needed to rectify the AC current, raise the voltage level, and adjust that voltage level on request from the car. A conventional EVSE, on the other hand, is really not all that much more than a glorified on/off switch.
Overthinking it. A DCFC that size is nothing more than the current onboard charger with some communications electronics added. The reason the prices are so high right now is that they are not being built to scale. Once production scales up, the prices will drop just about into the range that current 7-10 kW EVSEs are running now.

ga2500ev
 

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Overthinking it. A DCFC that size is nothing more than the current onboard charger with some communications electronics added. The reason the prices are so high right now is that they are not being built to scale. Once production scales up, the prices will drop just about into the range that current 7-10 kW EVSEs are running now.
You can't draw a similarity between an automotive DC fast charger and a typical battery charger and use it to extrapolate costs. DC fast chargers run at literally a thousand times the power level of most battery chargers, and they have to boost the voltage to almost a hundred times higher. It takes a lot of specialized components to do that. It's nothing at all like a 10kW EVSE in which the only high-power component is a single relay.
 

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Currently, EVs may use different models of built-in rectifiers. There is no reason to have it built in because we cannot just plug in to the wall without the EVSE. Taking that part out of the vehicle and having after market models will actually drive the price down. Plus, we can choose how fast we want our home charging to be. Bolt limits us to 32A or less but wouldn't it be nice if we could charge on AC at 40A or even higher (if the site supports it).

Imagine if each ICE car came with a built in pump so that you can pump gasoline from the underground tanks. How silly.
 

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You can't draw a similarity between an automotive DC fast charger and a typical battery charger and use it to extrapolate costs. DC fast chargers run at literally a thousand times the power level of most battery chargers, and they have to boost the voltage to almost a hundred times higher. It takes a lot of specialized components to do that. It's nothing at all like a 10kW EVSE in which the only high-power component is a single relay.
A home DCFC wouldn't operate at those power levels. A home DCFC would operate in the range of 10-25 kW, where the low end is essentially a onboard charger that currently are installed in the vehicles. You do realize that the onboard charger is a DCFC, right? In the future it'll simply be externalized from the vehicle.

I wasn't comparing it to an EVSE. My specific comparison was with the current onboard charger that actually in the EV that converts the incoming AC to DC to charge the batteries. Once all chargers are offboard, there will be no need for an onboard charger in the car.

ga2500ev
 

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Such a weird device since the EV has built in rectifier. Though, I guess this will allow you to charge your Bolt at 9.6KW (NEMA 14-50 drawing 40A then this device converts it to DC for your car... thus allowing you to exceed the 32A/7.2KW limit using NEMA 14-50 AC.

I think these were nominally intended for vehicles with slower built-in L2 chargers, e.g. the Mitsubishi i-MIEV which was limited to 20A L2 charging. But I'm skeptical that many people have actually bought and used them.
I think one of these that I saw was able to take input from multiple L2 stations (if available) and combine them into one DC output... so if were at a Nissan dealership with 3 available L2's each putting out 6 KW, you could get 18 KW DC (minus losses) on the output.

The other use would be charging your Spark EV at 9.6 KW (40 amp L2 feed into the unit) or even 20ish KW if you used a Tesla HPWC vs 3.3 KW max on the stock internal charger.

Basically a rich mans toy to me, or perhaps a proof of concept that never really went anywhere.

Keith
 

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The problem is that home DCFC chargers are going to be a lot more expensive than a 120/240V EVSE because they require all the high power circuitry needed to rectify the AC current, raise the voltage level, and adjust that voltage level on request from the car. A conventional EVSE, on the other hand, is really not all that much more than a glorified on/off switch.

I suspect that home DCFCs are going to be a hard sell given the high price point, which is fully visible to the consumer. The cost of the car's built-in charger, on the other hand, is buried in the much larger cost of the vehicle.

And the same comment on cost applies to installations in condos or commercial businesses like hotels. It's cheap to install 240V charging, and it's a good solution for hotels where clients are going to be parked overnight anyway.

I don't see in-car chargers going away in the foreseeable future.
As you pointed out, all of this equipment is already required and built into the car currently... the manufacturer could replace the on board AC to DC converter with an external AC to DC converter at the same or lower cost because the external charger would not have to meet specifications for the rigors of being bounced around on the road for 100,000 miles, so it could use less expensive components. You could even include a low powered one for emergency on road use in the trunk.

Problem is the manufacturers would just include the low powered one, and we would be screwed again :) But this would be a way to slash thousands off of the price of manufacturing and EV... something all of the manufacturers are interested in doing.

Keith
 

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I think one of these that I saw was able to take input from multiple L2 stations (if available) and combine them into one DC output... so if were at a Nissan dealership with 3 available L2's each putting out 6 KW, you could get 18 KW DC (minus losses) on the output.

The other use would be charging your Spark EV at 9.6 KW (40 amp L2 feed into the unit) or even 20ish KW if you used a Tesla HPWC vs 3.3 KW max on the stock internal charger.

Basically a rich mans toy to me, or perhaps a proof of concept that never really went anywhere.

Keith
Wow, this could make long distance traveling much easier even without DCFC enroute. When at RV parks, being able to add 2 NEMA 14-50 to get 9.6 KW X 2 (almost 20 KW) will cut your charge time to just 3 hours!
 

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A home DCFC wouldn't operate at those power levels. A home DCFC would operate in the range of 10-25 kW, where the low end is essentially a onboard charger that currently are installed in the vehicles.
I misunderstood your post to be comparing a DC fast charger to conventional battery chargers used for equipment like cell phones or laptops and drawing conclusions about cost from it - that's my mistake.

As you pointed out, all of this equipment is already required and built into the car currently... the manufacturer could replace the on board AC to DC converter with an external AC to DC converter at the same or lower cost because the external charger would not have to meet specifications for the rigors of being bounced around on the road for 100,000 miles, so it could use less expensive components.
Aye, but here's the rub: you still want the car to be able to charged at commercial establishments like hotels, and those establishments are a lot less likely to want to pay the added cost of a DC fast charger compared to an EVSE. There's a heckuva lot of L2 infrastructure out there, and you're going to have a hard time selling an EV that can't take advantage of it when the competition's cars can. Therefore, you're still going to need the car's onboard charger, and that means providing an additional external charger is going to significantly increase the cost.

I understand what you guys are saying - in an ideal world with a blank slate it could well make sense. But we live in a world where L1 and L2 charging is a firmly entrenched standard and expectation. I don't see manufacturers dropping it any time soon.
 

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I misunderstood your post to be comparing a DC fast charger to conventional battery chargers used for equipment like cell phones or laptops and drawing conclusions about cost from it - that's my mistake.
No worries...
Aye, but here's the rub: you still want the car to be able to charged at commercial establishments like hotels, and those establishments are a lot less likely to want to pay the added cost of a DC fast charger compared to an EVSE. There's a heckuva lot of L2 infrastructure out there, and you're going to have a hard time selling an EV that can't take advantage of it when the competition's cars can. Therefore, you're still going to need the car's onboard charger, and that means providing an additional external charger is going to significantly increase the cost.

I understand what you guys are saying - in an ideal world with a blank slate it could well make sense. But we live in a world where L1 and L2 charging is a firmly entrenched standard and expectation. I don't see manufacturers dropping it any time soon.
L2 is really going to be a drag on EV adoption. It gives just enough infrastructure so that someone can charge as it's just a glorified extension cord, but it's so slow that except in the one specific instance where it actually works, overnight charging, it'll drive you insane. The current EV community seems to be so conditioned to overnight L2 charging as the hammer that pounds all nails, that it's difficult to insert any more useful or flexible ideas for charging into the public charging space.

If money really is the issue for these establishments, then the solution is to offer the raw AC power with a BYOD policy and put the onus on the EV driver to supply the connector. While it's just a cable in Europe, that's how their charging systems work now.

Better would be to offer a limited number of higher powered chargers. I really think that Efacac's QC45 is an awesome concept. It's a 50 kW DCFC that takes a 20 kW AC input coupled with a 30 kWh battery. The input charges the battery when idle, then both the input and the battery discharge into the car at full speed. With units like this folks will be able to recharge much of their battery while they are checking in and unloading stuff into the room for the night and be nearly fully recharged by the time they are ready to move the car. Again, couple that with a couple of BYOD slots and the hotel can call it a day for charging infrastructure.

It's all a theoretical discussion at this juncture. And it many ways it's somewhat irrelevant whether or not the onboard charger remains. What's more important is that the public charging infrastructure needs to move towards more useful and flexible DCFC style charging options because L2 isn't going to cut it in the long run. We all need to be thinking about 20,40, and 50 kW local public charging stations, not 5,6,7 kW ones. I always read posts about how charging at those medium DCFC speeds suck. But I believe that's almost always in comparison to highway travel recharging, which should not be their usage modality. I'd really like to hear what folks think about them when shopping for groceries, or working out at the gym, or other activities in the local area where folks tend to spend 30-60 minutes. That's the sweet spot, and I feel a missed opportunity in the public charging space.

ga2500ev
 

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L2 is really going to be a drag on EV adoption. It gives just enough infrastructure so that someone can charge as it's just a glorified extension cord, but it's so slow that except in the one specific instance where it actually works, overnight charging, it'll drive you insane.
Actually, I'm on the lookout for L2 chargers all over the place because I can leave the car charging at them while I go and do something without having to worry about getting back to the car when the charge finishes. There are plenty of times where I want to get some charge but I don't necessarily need to fill the car completely and I don't want to have to worry about the car sitting in an EV stall and not charging.
 
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