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I suspect EV buyers generally are more time consuming, but perhaps they tend to be a little more informed since it's still a newish/niche market? More informed simply means they would have more questions, because that's the result of knowing enough to have questions.
I taught the sales guy a lot when I bought my Bolt, I knew very little, but he knew a lot less. He was replaced by a guy who owns a 2019 Bolt, and is pretty knowledgeable.

Any new tech tends to have a lot of questions. Having driven an EV for 4+ years, I expect my next buying experience could be online as I know enough to decide now. Plus, there are generally enough opportunities to test drive at EV events, so the need for a dealer is dropping.
 

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Exactly this, so less cars in the lot, less inventory surplus, less negotiations and deals for the consumer
I'm all about getting a good deal.

One definition of a good deal might simply be paying less than someone else. Probably how most people understand "good deal'.

I propose that a good deal is the situation in which the efficiency of a process is maximized, reducing unnecessary cost, and the savings provided by increased efficiency being split between buyer and seller.

"Hang on", you're saying. "Why would the greedy seller pass any of the savings to the customer?". The automotive industry is not a monopoly. Manufacturers must compete on price. If another manufacturer finds a way to run more efficiently, they can undercut their competitors by passing some of the savings on to the customer.

Which is a better deal then?

a. Manufacturer retains the dealership and salesman model, splitting the profit 3-ways. You fight back and forth with the slimeball until you get the Chevy Bolt for $30k, $2k less than some other people. You end up with a car that sat on the lot for a while accumulating interest / insurance costs to the dealer, and got most of the things you wanted, but they threw in "free" car mats so you would overlook the couple features you didn't get. You paid a little extra for a feature you don't care for.

b. The manufacturer sells the exact Chevy Bolt you wanted direct to you for $28k. No haggling.

Those that love haggling for a deal would love Mexico. Go there and hagle a great deal on a laptop. It will be more expensive than the flat price we pay for electronic goods here.
 

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I'm all about getting a good deal.

One definition of a good deal might simply be paying less than someone else. Probably how most people understand "good deal'.

I propose that a good deal is the situation in which the efficiency of a process is maximized, reducing unnecessary cost, and the savings provided by increased efficiency being split between buyer and seller.

"Hang on", you're saying. "Why would the greedy seller pass any of the savings to the customer?". The automotive industry is not a monopoly. Manufacturers must compete on price. If another manufacturer finds a way to run more efficiently, they can undercut their competitors by passing some of the savings on to the customer.

Which is a better deal then?

a. Manufacturer retains the dealership and salesman model, splitting the profit 3-ways. You fight back and forth with the slimeball until you get the Chevy Bolt for $30k, $2k less than some other people. You end up with a car that sat on the lot for a while accumulating interest / insurance costs to the dealer, and got most of the things you wanted, but they threw in "free" car mats so you would overlook the couple features you didn't get. You paid a little extra for a feature you don't care for.

b. The manufacturer sells the exact Chevy Bolt you wanted direct to you for $28k. No haggling.

Those that love haggling for a deal would love Mexico. Go there and hagle a great deal on a laptop. It will be more expensive than the flat price we pay for electronic goods here.
The surplus of cars in the lot + getting near the end of the month put pressure on the salesman to sale more to achieve the monthly sales goal. Maybe what you say is partly true about dealer savings and at the end dealer needs to compete against each other. In my region there is not much competition because many dealers of different brands are owned by the same owner and so if no one has at least a little surplus in the inventory no dealer will be willing to negotiate. It wasn't rare before to get cars under msrp. I think it will be something of the past especially with this new sales model
 

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The surplus of cars in the lot + getting near the end of the month put pressure on the salesman to sale more to achieve the monthly sales goal. Maybe what you say is partially true about dealer savings and at the end dealer needs to compete against each other. In my region there is not much competition because many dealers of different brands are owned by the same owner and so if no one has at least a little surplus in the inventory no dealer will be willing to negotiate. It wasn't rare before to get cars under msrp. I think it will be something of the past especially with this new sales model
bug, sorry for the double post
 

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The surplus of cars in the lot + getting near the end of the month put pressure on the salesman to sale more to achieve the monthly sales goal. Maybe what you say is partly true about dealer savings and at the end dealer needs to compete against each other. In my region there is not much competition because many dealers of different brands are owned by the same owner and so if no one has at least a little surplus in the inventory no dealer will be willing to negotiate. It wasn't rare before to get cars under msrp. I think it will be something of the past especially with this new sales model
A couple comments inspired by your response.

What is MSRP? Is goodness of a "deal" dependent on how much less than MSRP someone pays?

Scenerio a. The MSRP on the Chevy Bolt is $35k and you negotiate down to $30k.
Scenerio b. The price of the Chevy Bolt is $28k. Everyone pays that price.

Which is the better "deal"?

You might get a salesman to forfeit a portion of his commission on the sale if inventory languishes, but you're still paying his commision on top of the price of the car. You're literally paying a person whose job is in perfect opposition to your interests. It's kinda like bragging that you convinced a bully to hit you half as hard as he was going to initially. "Most people take it on the chin, but I was smart enough to take a shot to the ribs".

Again, I'm challenging the notion that a good deal is paying less than a fictitious price (MSRP), but instead getting the most value for the dollar. You get the most value by eliminating the salesman. We might consider a good deal is getting a salesman to give up half his commision, but I propose the best deal is eliminating 100% of the commision.

My other thought is that inventory languishing on the lot is an expense. Who pays all expenses a business incurs? Consumers pay 100% of expenses as reflected in price. Reduce the expense of maintaining an inventory, and consumers pay less. Not only do they pay less, they get the thing they wanted because they specify exactly what they want in the order. No more problem of a dealership having 4 silver cars when all you wanted was the blue one.

Finally, in this supply constrained economy, almost everyone is paying MSRP+. A good deal these days would be simply getting MSRP. Just imagine how good the deal would be if the manufacturer could sell direct, and the price was wholesale (what the dealership pays).

Tesla has forced the beginning of the end to the traditional dealership model. Good riddance.
 

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Reality check. You can go get a Cybertruck instead. Oh wait, scratch that. :D

And Greedy Tesla has been steadily raising prices on their cars over the past year or so. No affordable Tesla for me! 😢
Well that 90+k OTD lightning wouldn't be delivered till Spring 2023 , i.e. June, so wait six months more and get a CT, a ground up EV vs an ice conversion.
Maybe Tesla will keep the dual motor under 80k. Obviously Ford didn't GAF about tax credit eligibility.
 

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Discussion Starter · #33 ·
I like this policy of stopping the dealer price gouging,
but this cost of a DCFC unit and some training seems really high????
Ford said 90% of the cost is DCFC. Permitting, installation and equip isn’t cheap apparently

BUT will our price negotiation power go away?
Hm, yeah it seems. OTOH now there’s transparent competition, plus a belief that we’ll soon see EV price wars

The GM Employee discount has no-non-sense rules built-in. It shields you from all of these issues to begin with!
Yeah I’ve used it, my company has it as a perk since we’re such a big GM customer
 

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BUT will our price negotiation power go away?
You can bet your bottom dollar it goes away. You won't be buying off the lot anymore. You won't get gouged, but you won't pay less than MSRP unless Ford provides the discount. Trust me, Dealers aren't stupid enough to agree to a price cap, yet still have to discount against competitors. I paid $23.5k for my 2021 without any haggling. Once everyone goes this route, folks will pine over the "Good ole days" of buying well below MSRP.
 

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You're not understanding the complex situation instigated by Covid and perpetuated by idiocy.

Most goods rely on many parts, and a disruption in availability of any of those can cause a disruption in manufacture. Cars are one of the more complex goods, and therefore very susceptible to supply issues. The supply of cars is constrained and demand is high. In 2021, the US sold as many new cars as 1977. There was 100 million less people in the US in 1977.

Your good deal had nothing to do with traditional dealership models and everything to do with lucky timing.

Why do people perpetually think adding layers to the sale saves them money?
 

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My issue with Tesla was the legal safeguards my states laws protected me under. I didn't want to travel to CA to fight them. Every credit card is located in one state. Almost every lawyer in that state is under contract to the credit card companies. Good luck suing them.
 

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as long as dealers have at least one model of each vehicle on the lot to test drive, all for the changes. I wouldn't have bought a bolt without driving one first, which I did.
With the last two new cars I bought, I never stepped foot in the dealership until we went to pick the car up. Everything online or occasionally by phone. And, as is customary, I knew far more about both cars than the delivery salesperson did.
 

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A couple comments inspired by your response.

What is MSRP? Is goodness of a "deal" dependent on how much less than MSRP someone pays?

Scenerio a. The MSRP on the Chevy Bolt is $35k and you negotiate down to $30k.
Scenerio b. The price of the Chevy Bolt is $28k. Everyone pays that price.

Which is the better "deal"?

You might get a salesman to forfeit a portion of his commission on the sale if inventory languishes, but you're still paying his commision on top of the price of the car. You're literally paying a person whose job is in perfect opposition to your interests. It's kinda like bragging that you convinced a bully to hit you half as hard as he was going to initially. "Most people take it on the chin, but I was smart enough to take a shot to the ribs".

Again, I'm challenging the notion that a good deal is paying less than a fictitious price (MSRP), but instead getting the most value for the dollar. You get the most value by eliminating the salesman. We might consider a good deal is getting a salesman to give up half his commision, but I propose the best deal is eliminating 100% of the commision.

My other thought is that inventory languishing on the lot is an expense. Who pays all expenses a business incurs? Consumers pay 100% of expenses as reflected in price. Reduce the expense of maintaining an inventory, and consumers pay less. Not only do they pay less, they get the thing they wanted because they specify exactly what they want in the order. No more problem of a dealership having 4 silver cars when all you wanted was the blue one.

Finally, in this supply constrained economy, almost everyone is paying MSRP+. A good deal these days would be simply getting MSRP. Just imagine how good the deal would be if the manufacturer could sell direct, and the price was wholesale (what the dealership pays).

Tesla has forced the beginning of the end to the traditional dealership model. Good riddance.
You pay a set price for nearly everything sold retail. Why and how did this game of dickering over a car sale originate ? Cattle / horse trading in the old days
To paraphrase redpoint5, the rationale seems to be to allow the “sucker” the illusion of getting a better deal than the “other” guy.
 

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Just to play Devil's Advocate with myself, there is motivation for businesses to practice price discrimination.

Price discrimination occurs because the market price (price set by all supply and demand) is different than what individuals are willing to pay. Some people with more money, or who really like a thing, or who value their time more, might be willing to pay more just for the convenience.

Internet, phone and insurance companies do this by offering introductory pricing. They know most people won't be bothered to switch when their bill increases after the first year. For services like internet with very low marginal costs (adding 1 more customer hardly costs anything), it makes sense to retain a customer that would otherwise switch by offering a lower price.

Fixed prices fail to capture the excess some people would be willing to spend, and exclude everyone not willing to pay the fixed price. Haggling is the solution to this.

I don't like price discrimination, but there is a reason it exists. My guess is that efficiencies gained by not haggling will offset the loss in capturing the "excess", and fixed pricing will eventually become the norm. As a customer, I don't want to pay for the coffee, the expensive showroom, salesman commissions, or the inventory overhead costs of a dealership.
 
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