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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I keep hearing that the Model 3 is superior to the Bolt. One of the things invariably mentioned is the frunk. I have an old book bag with the portable charger, VOM, phillips screw driver, NEMA 14-30/50 to NEMA 5-15 adapter, and a 25 ft. jumper cord for pulling 240 volts from two 120 volt outlets on opposing legs of a 240 volt feed. This normally lives under the cargo floor. Just for fun, I thought I'd see what might fit under the hood.

I went out in the garage, and grabbed the dish pan I use for cleaning bicycle parts. The pan is 13" x 15" x 4 1/2". I set it on the HPDM (high power distribution module), and pushed it back under the cowl overhang. I put the stuff from the book bag into the dish pan, and laid a piece of bubble wrap over the front edge to check for interference with the hood. I slowly, and gently closed the hood...no pops. On opening the hood, none of the bubbles had popped. I tried a WalMart storage box that was 13" x 17" x 5 1/2" high, and it touched the hood. Anyway, I will be looking for a covered storage box. My main interest in this is seeing Tesla owners expressions. :)
 

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Cool, well no, hot maybe, don't those inverters and power switches get a little warm? Anyhow good job in beating back the Tesla fanbois.

Yeah the Tesla will always come out ahead of all other BEV's, at least in the minds of the uninformed. I read an article recently where the writer confidently stated that the Bolt was merely a gas car retrofitted for electric. Foolish people write foolish things. Reality is the Bolt engineering is superior to the Tesla in every way except for software features. Tesla was engineered to be cheap to make. They know how to make a business model though.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
"don't those inverters and power switches get a little warm?"

Most of the boxes under the hood is liquid cooled (heated , in the case of the heater), but nothing like the temperatures under the hood of an ICE. The HPDM is not cooled. It should not be generating much heat, or there is something very wrong. I figure I'll stick a thermometer in the storage box, and drive it around to see how warm it gets.
 

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That doesn't look safe. It's also not much room and very dirty since the engine compartment is exposed to the elements (you can see straight down to the pavement). You also have to pop the hood, undue a latch, maybe put up the hood stand (whatever that thing is called) if you need both hands to get what you need.

Too much risk, not enough reward.
 

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2017 Bolt EV / 2014 Spark EV / 2020 Tesla Model Y
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It may not look safe, but it does look funny! Nice one.
 

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Reality is the Bolt engineering is superior to the Tesla in every way except for software features.
ah -yeah - no. I'm glad you need to self justify your purchase and I'm gratified that you embolden yourself by belittling other's purchasing decisions - but I"m not sure the Bolt is superior in every way - it's certainly a more affordable product from a longer running company, but let's not confuse that with "better".
 

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2021 Sienna LE AWD "Mr. Sparkollz"
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ah -yeah - no. I'm glad you need to self justify your purchase and I'm gratified that you embolden yourself by belittling other's purchasing decisions - but I"m not sure the Bolt is superior in every way - it's certainly a more affordable product from a longer running company, but let's not confuse that with "better".
There is quite a big difference between someone (a) making a purchasing decision and (b) being a fanboi.

You'd agree that a large proportion of the Model 3 fanboi online content (not to be confused with matter-of-fact reviews and opinions of bona fide Tesla drivers) is written by folks who who have never driven either the Model 3, or the Bolt. And I assume you have read the trash-talk, describing the Bolt as a copycat Fit EV, that is an overpriced Spark that looks like a Prius hatchback. Geez, those folks haven't seen a Spark or a Prius either :)

But it's not unfair to say that as of now the Bolt is better engineered than the Model 3. The latter is still more or less being hand-built and beta-tested. As soon as it has become a mass product, with national availability and with known prices/specs, we'll look at both cars side-by-side again.
 

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Model 3 fan boys are the worst! Try explaining to them that Elon lies about schedule!

42,000 miles on my Model S P85D however and I love it - delivered 8 weeks late- but so far it’s been great!
 

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ah -yeah - no. I'm glad you need to self justify your purchase and I'm gratified that you embolden yourself by belittling other's purchasing decisions - but I"m not sure the Bolt is superior in every way - it's certainly a more affordable product from a longer running company, but let's not confuse that with "better".
Not at all, I'm an engineer whose been doing it for so long I can't help but obsess about good engineering. And I'm not belittling - I didn't say people are making a stupid or bad choice, but that the Bolt is better engineered (and if you check again I don't say it's better in every way, just engineering wise*!) Let's be clear here, if anything you are making the personal judgements by psychoanalyzing my post. I easily could have ordered a 3 but my wife doesn't like the looks (thinks it's too masculine) - I do. Anyhow I went with the Bolt because of the well known Tesla QC problems, but we're buying a second BEV in 4 years and I figured it would be a Tesla 3. Since then I dug into the two cars and was really surprised to find out how they designed their cars. Now I can't buy one (I rather wish I could), because it would bother me knowing the choices they made. Just how I am, I care more about engineering design than fit/finish. Anyhow apologies if I stepped on your toes - I'll be clear and say Tesla are great cars.**

* My assessment is the Bolt body materials (8 metals vs aluminum only), battery, motor and cooling is a better engineering solution. Tesla clearly has superior software. I think that's it, suspension, brakes and such are relatively standard, and I think they both use iBooster from Bosch.

** If it helps I have the same assessment of Apple. Apple engineering sucks, it's horrible, Microsoft is a million times better and better to develop in. Doesn't stop me from having many Macs and iPhones - but I sure enjoy developing in Windows better than Mac (and prefer using Mac over Windows).
 

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What Tesla has done is to apply the Apple business model to automobiles. Rather a brilliant idea and one that is working enormously well. But the approach is to obsess about the user experience at whatever cost. I'll tell you it was a great lesson when Steve Jobs came along and showed all of us in the engineering world that when it comes down to it the user accessible design is far more important than the under the hood engineering. And what's really interesting is that we see this model playing over in these two different industries. In computers we have Microsoft which has superior engineering under the hood but a horrible user interface. On the other hand we got Apple which has a superior user interface and customer satisfaction but mediocre engineering under the hood. The same pattern is playing out here in automobiles. Tesla has a superior interface, and Chevrolet has superior under the hood engineering, but Tesla is the clear leader in BEV's.

Full disclosure is that I actually really like Teslas and would like to have one. As I said my wife isn't so sure, the other problem is I don't want to own a car that has a luxury perception. But the other factor in this for me is that I rather like underdogs. For example in the grand piano world Steinway's are considered the best. The fact is that the Steinway design is over hundred years old and is horrible. You could pay a half-million for a Steinway concert grand but you then have to put thousands of dollars more into it just to make it playable from the factory. I'm a classical pianist and when it came to choosing my piano I decided on the Walter. Again, another underdog but this piano was designed by the foremost piano engineer and is superior, from that standpoint. It has a benefit that it holds a tune far more stably than a Steinway, and it has a high treble registered to die for because the soundboard is properly impedance matched to the strings (along with many other features*). Impedance matching wasn't something that they understood in the 1800s, but Steinway stuck with that old design so you get a flat treble. So here again we see an example the pattern playing out where the market leader doesn't have as good an engineering solution under the hood, but in the end it doesn't matter – they are still the market leader.

* You want to talk engineering? Grand pianos are a fascinating bit of engineering, you'd be surprised at what goes into these, and Steinway was designed in the era before we knew about any of this. But the 'Steinway bell like sound' stuck, plus they had a good marketing department.
 

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** If it helps I have the same assessment of Apple. Apple engineering sucks, it's horrible, Microsoft is a million times better and better to develop in. Doesn't stop me from having many Macs and iPhones - but I sure enjoy developing in Windows better than Mac (and prefer using Mac over Windows).
It does help - after 27 years in the tech industry - I've never heard anyone say Microsoft's engineering is "better" - I really haven't - Windows is a steaming pile and has been since day 1 - Windows is provably of the most insecure and flaky operating systems every foist on the paying public…comparing windows to Unix and determining windows is "a million times better" - well I just don't know where to start and it would take way to long to fix that incorrect perception.

I now understand why you think the Bolt is "superior" - makes perfect sense given your engineering point of view.
 

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Not at all, I'm an engineer whose been doing it for so long I can't help but obsess about good engineering. And I'm not belittling - I didn't say people are making a stupid or bad choice, but that the Bolt is better engineered (and if you check again I don't say it's better in every way, just engineering wise*!) Let's be clear here, if anything you are making the personal judgements by psychoanalyzing my post. I easily could have ordered a 3 but my wife doesn't like the looks (thinks it's too masculine) - I do. Anyhow I went with the Bolt because of the well known Tesla QC problems, but we're buying a second BEV in 4 years and I figured it would be a Tesla 3. Since then I dug into the two cars and was really surprised to find out how they designed their cars. Now I can't buy one (I rather wish I could), because it would bother me knowing the choices they made. Just how I am, I care more about engineering design than fit/finish. Anyhow apologies if I stepped on your toes - I'll be clear and say Tesla are great cars.**

* My assessment is the Bolt body materials (8 metals vs aluminum only), battery, motor and cooling is a better engineering solution. Tesla clearly has superior software. I think that's it, suspension, brakes and such are relatively standard, and I think they both use iBooster from Bosch.

** If it helps I have the same assessment of Apple. Apple engineering sucks, it's horrible, Microsoft is a million times better and better to develop in. Doesn't stop me from having many Macs and iPhones - but I sure enjoy developing in Windows better than Mac (and prefer using Mac over Windows).
As usual, the "Professor" is playing fast and loose with the facts. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but they should at lest have a basic understanding of the facts that back up that opinion.

Just one example (Tesla Model 3):


Some (many?) of the experienced users on this forum skip reading his posts (he seems to feel it is required to chime in with his expertise on nearly every thread), but it is sometimes worth pointing out obvious distortions of facts that form the backbone of his many opinions.

Not a personal attack, and he is not breaking any rules by posting incorrect information. Just a warning to those looking to learn by reading this forum - just because you read it on the internet does not make it true (a cliche, but still worth noting). It is important to consider the source when relying on information to further your knowledge. As you read though the threads you will likely find that some posters are more reliable sources of information than others.

I know nothing about pianos. After reading his post about them I still consider that I know nothing more given the quality of facts used to support his opinion in many posts on many subjects. The proverbial "grain of salt" - or maybe the whole shaker?
 

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yeah - Tesla's body designs are quite good and very very cutting edge - the Model S famously "broke" the testing machine designed to simulate roll over crushing strength the machine failed before Tesla's body design failed - subsequent 4-5 years of Tesla's in actual crashes have proven the Model S to be a well engineered.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...sla-model-s-break-the-nhtsa-crash-test-scale/

I'm not saying the Bolt is poorly engineered - on the contrary I have the utmost respect for the Bolt and can prove it in that I own one and used my own money to buy one. Chevy did a great job with the Bolt and it continues to pleasantly surprise me- but I wouldn't consider it vastly superior to the Tesla Model S or X - rather I consider them contemporaries leveraging on each other's progress as the industry as a whole comes to terms with the pros/cons of design choices allowed by EV's.
 

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DucRider said:
Not a personal attack
As usual, the "Professor" is playing fast and loose with the facts ... Some (many?) of the experienced users on this forum skip reading his posts (he seems to feel it is required to chime in with his expertise on nearly every thread), but it is sometimes worth pointing out obvious distortions of facts that form the backbone of his many opinions.
Looks pretty personal. I've never attacked anybody on this forum, and really hate it when people indulge in that. Well I guess I gave another opinion there, maybe I've offended you with yet another one of my bloviating talking. I said in one of these that after all the fires I came here as stress relief, not playing the sympathy card but this kind of pissed me off.

Sorry I'm posting too much for your taste, how about the "how to" I just posted before this? Go over there and tell me why I'm wasting everybody's time.

Cheers friends
 

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It would be nice if the Bolt had a “frunk”. It would also be nice if the Model 3 had a trunk that opened enough to load anything taller than a grocery bag.

Every car design is a compromise, in the case of the Bolt it appears utility was the primary concern, because it sure wasn’t beauty. Sleek design looks great until it’s time for a Home Depot run, then an ugly duckling hatchback seems like a brilliant idea.
 

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Did Stradivarius use impedance matching? I heard his stuff was pretty good, not sure if he used a Mac or a PC.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
It would be nice if the Bolt had a “frunk”. It would also be nice if the Model 3 had a trunk that opened enough to load anything taller than a grocery bag.

Every car design is a compromise, in the case of the Bolt it appears utility was the primary concern, because it sure wasn’t beauty. Sleek design looks great until it’s time for a Home Depot run, then an ugly duckling hatchback seems like a brilliant idea.
Beauty is subjective. I prefer the looks of the Bolt to the Model 3's sedan body. But I think the 2CV is beautiful too....probably a minority view.
 

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And I assume you have read the trash-talk, describing the Bolt as an overpriced Spark ...
I came from a Spark EV, and to be honest, I miss its tight turning radius and small size. The Bolt feels more like the Volt I had before the Spark EV.
 

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It would be nice if the Bolt had a “frunk”. It would also be nice if the Model 3 had a trunk that opened enough to load anything taller than a grocery bag.

Every car design is a compromise, in the case of the Bolt it appears utility was the primary concern, because it sure wasn’t beauty. Sleek design looks great until it’s time for a Home Depot run, then an ugly duckling hatchback seems like a brilliant idea.
The Model 3 with its long hood is a carry-over design from the ICE era of automobile. Obsolete. "Frunk" is merely an unnecessary excuse for the excessive body length Teslas have.
 
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