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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Good for them!!!

A new law in Germany requires every fuel station to have EV charging infrastructure in place. Public chargers will now be as ubiquitous as fuel pumps. That would go a long way toward making road trips in electric cars more convenient. Not having to search for a charger, just knowing that there would be one at pretty much every Autobahn exit, will make EV ownership a little less cerebral. You don’t have to fiddle with an app or plan your route strategically!
 

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Normally, I would ask how far behind the United States is from forward thinking countries like Germany. 5 years? 10 years?

However, the truth is, as we've seen here in the United States on everything from our response to the coronavirus to mandatory paid time off and universal access to healthcare, we might never adopt standards from or catch up to the developed world. Basically, I wouldn't count on our regulators and legislators to make something like this happen anytime soon.
 

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...and I see Europe as a bit closer to the cliff. We're rapidly catching up to some of their self-loathing nonsense and in some ways surpassing.

Why don't we just make everything a person might want be a "right" that we will fund by future generations. Might as well considering we're not even funding what we already have. Party hard with other people's money while it still exists.

BTW- There is universal access to healthcare in the US. The ER does not refuse service. Most clinics will send a bill.
 

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...and I see Europe as a bit closer to the cliff. We're rapidly catching up to some of their self-loathing nonsense and in some ways surpassing.

Why don't we just make everything a person might want be a "right" that we will fund by future generations. Might as well considering we're not even funding what we already have. Party hard with other people's money while it still exists.

BTW- There is universal access to healthcare in the US. The ER does not refuse service. Most clinics will send a bill.
Medical bills are the #1 cause of bankruptcy in the United States, so while you might be able to get medical care, you could also be financially ruined as a result. Yes, ERs do accept everybody, but they won't administer every form of essential, life-saving care. Try getting an organ transplant or chemotherapy in an ER.

The propaganda that people are asking for "free stuff" is also just that: Propaganda. What people are asking for is to pay what they pay in medical insurance premiums as an official tax instead, and as a consequence, be able to access the medical care they have paid for. All that without being denied treatment by insurance companies (yes, they get to override medical doctors) and paying exorbitant copays and deductibles.

Most developed countries look at the U.S. medical care system as medieval.
 

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Speaking as someone who has benefited from our rigged system due to the luck of geography, race, gender, and age, and would have benefited even more through the luck of class, I think we need to acknowledge that we have much higher operating expenses than Germany. Our official military spending is 2.6 times that of Germany as a percentage of GDP. Our incarceration rate is 7.8 times as high per capita. And welfare for the rich (income inequality) is 1.74 times higher per the CIA, or 2.02 times higher per the World Bank.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
That's the spirit everyone. Not once mentioning EVs. Take you political views to another area or start your own thread. Nobody here benefits from your off-topic discussion about affordability or your political leanings. I don't dive a **** how many posts you have here.
 

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Not surprising at all. Germany has plenty of really smart people, and the country (compared to the US) is small, and more easily managed. So / good for them.

We’re a much bigger machine here. The wheels turn slower, but I’m convinced (now) that we’ll get there, too. ICE engines (for all mass manufacturing intents and purposes) will disappear in my lifetime for sure. Manufacturers can’t wait. Goodbye recalls, defects and the litigation and ill will it brings, goodbye dealerships and those crooked middlemen they’ve had to tolerate forever, hello buying cars like refrigerators: order it, deliver it to your house, take your old one away, hello to happy owners who don’t have to deal with the shenanigans of mechanics - including states where “Inspections” are used to drum up business. Just gonna be a lot of happy people all the way around!

And to those who say, “no way, they make too much money on ICE vehicles”. Baloney. They’re gonna make even more this way running a much leaner operation with significantly less “shrinkage”.
 

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Not surprising at all. Germany has plenty of really smart people, and the country (compared to the US) is small, and more easily managed. So / good for them.

We’re a much bigger machine here. The wheels turn slower, but I’m convinced (now) that we’ll get there, too. ICE engines (for all mass manufacturing intents and purposes) will disappear in my lifetime for sure. Manufacturers can’t wait. Goodbye recalls, defects and the litigation and ill will it brings, goodbye dealerships and those crooked middlemen they’ve had to tolerate forever, hello buying cars like refrigerators: order it, deliver it to your house, take your old one away, hello to happy owners who don’t have to deal with the shenanigans of mechanics - including states where “Inspections” are used to drum up business. Just gonna be a lot of happy people all the way around!

And to those who say, “no way, they make too much money on ICE vehicles”. Baloney. They’re gonna make even more this way running a much leaner operation with significantly less “shrinkage”.
I think you hit the nail on the head: As a country, Germany is managed. The United States is mismanaged, unmanaged, unmanageable.... take your pick. We're going to rely on the "free market" to install these chargers, and there's simply not enough return on investment for a private business to undertake this. There simply aren't enough EVs on the road to recoup the installation, maintenance, and operating costs. And there likely won't be enough EVs on the road for long enough that this isn't even an issue on most fueling companies' radar.

About the only population of EVs that's dense enough and on the road enough to even make this conversation worthwhile are Teslas specifically in California. A gas station on I-5 could add two to four V3 Superchargers, and they'd likely cycle through 15 or maybe 20 customers a day. On a busy day, maybe 40. How many customers does that same gas station draw per gas pump in a day? Is it worth the cost of four V3 Superchargers? Does anyone even know the cost of installing those four V3 Superchargers and the supporting hardware?
 

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I think you hit the nail on the head: As a country, Germany is managed. The United States is mismanaged, unmanaged, unmanageable.... take your pick. We're going to rely on the "free market" to install these chargers, and there's simply not enough return on investment for a private business to undertake this. There simply aren't enough EVs on the road to recoup the installation, maintenance, and operating costs.
But it's still really early. Lots of businesses lose money for a period of time - because they're betting there's a light at the end of the tunnel where it'll all pay off for them. The growth in EV acceptance isn't going to be linear. As soon as the range increases enough OR the charging time decreases enough to get the ear of those unwilling to listen (right now), people will start buying them in large numbers (if only as a complementary/2nd vehicle, at first).

I think, just like we recently heard manufacturers say, "we're not gonna make sedan cars anymore", before I die I'm gonna hear, "we're not making ICE vehicles anymore".
 

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What is Germany installing at gas stations? No thanks to the article, I imagine it's L2 chargers, right? People charge L2 at home and at work, and sometimes (unnecessarily) when shopping. They will not sit for hours at a gas station or drive around between stations trying to find a free one. There is little reason to have L2 chargers at gas stations.

DCFC is needed when distance traveling, and then mainly in large numbers and just along freeways. DCFC stations are insanely expensive with risky profitability. A peak power fee has to be paid to the electric company regardless of how much power is used. They're not going to force gas stations to foot all the bills for those.

"Germany hopes to have 1 million public facing charging ports within ten years." The article doesn't specify what type of chargers or how they're going to work. The article is propaganda devoid of information and common sense.

These are very dumb people without a thought in their tiny virtue signaling brains. 80% of their energy still comes from petroleum and they are proud to be winding down nuclear. There is already backlash against wind farm blight and dams, and what are they going to do on calm cloudy days -- shut the country down? They will become weak and calamity-prone, and they will come groveling to France who has a security-based energy policy at 75% nuclear.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
What is Germany installing at gas stations? No thanks to the article, I imagine it's L2 chargers, right? People charge L2 at home and at work, and sometimes (unnecessarily) when shopping. They will not sit for hours at a gas station or drive around between stations trying to find a free one. There is little reason to have L2 chargers at gas stations.

DCFC is needed when distance traveling, and then mainly in large numbers and just along freeways. DCFC stations are insanely expensive with risky profitability. A peak power fee has to be paid to the electric company regardless of how much power is used. They're not going to force gas stations to foot all the bills for those.

"Germany hopes to have 1 million public facing charging ports within ten years." The article doesn't specify what type of chargers or how they're going to work. The article is propaganda devoid of information and common sense.

These are very dumb people without a thought in their tiny virtue signaling brains. 80% of their energy still comes from petroleum and they are proud to be winding down nuclear. There is already backlash against wind farm blight and dams, and what are they going to do on calm cloudy days -- shut the country down? They will become weak and calamity-prone, and they will come groveling to France who has a security-based energy policy at 75% nuclear.
I stopped reading at,"and sometimes (unnecessarily) when shopping:". And it got worse from that point.
 

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But it's still really early. Lots of businesses lose money for a period of time - because they're betting there's a light at the end of the tunnel where it'll all pay off for them. The growth in EV acceptance isn't going to be linear. As soon as the range increases enough OR the charging time decreases enough to get the ear of those unwilling to listen (right now), people will start buying them in large numbers (if only as a complementary/2nd vehicle, at first).

I think, just like we recently heard manufacturers say, "we're not gonna make sedan cars anymore", before I die I'm gonna hear, "we're not making ICE vehicles anymore".
Which is why it needs to be regulated and or subsidized in the beginning. For any reasonably compelling travel charger site (four to six 150+ kW chargers), you're asking these businesses to spend at least $250,000. In my previous example, in the best of markets, that might equate to 20 new vehicles a day. Say an average of 2 people per vehicle (absurdly high), and you're now averaging 40 new visitors per day that you wouldn't otherwise have had. Now, let's say you have a 50% conversion rate (roughly half those new visitors buy a good or service from your store), so you have 20 new customers per day. What's the typical transaction at a convenience store? $5? Let's be optimistic and say $10? Then what's the margin? Let's be generous again and say 20%.

This location is now seeing $40.00 a day of net income thanks to a $250,000 upgrade. It will take 17 years just to pay off the upfront cost of the charging equipment and installation. Even if you account for a small margin on electricity prices and and a gradually increasing number of customers, the ROI is still going to be 10 years or more. And at that point, you need to account for equipment damage, failures, replacements, upkeep costs, etc.

Even with pie-in-the-sky thinking of 100% charger saturation, you have to assess how many customers you can actually cycle through with 150+ kW charging in a day. The Porsche Taycan takes 22.5 minutes to go from 5% to 80% on a 350 kW charger. The Tesla Model 3 takes 28 minutes to go from 5% to 80% on a 250 kW V3 Supercharger. Not everyone will charge to 80%, but many will. Those are also the fastest charging vehicles currently available, so overall, you probably have to account for a 30-minute average charge time per vehicle. So 48 cars per charger per day is the absolute best you can hope for for the foreseeable future, and as a site owner, you don't actually want to see that. 100% saturation means people are waiting to access a charger (not good -- potential customers will move on and might never come back). It also means that anything you were using to offset your demand charges (say grid-tie battery) will be exhausted, and you'll start paying exorbitant amounts per customer (I believe it was EVgo that stated demand charges cost them near $40 per charging session). Basically, at a certain point, as a business, you start losing money.

Essentially, you're asking these businesses to take a huge financial risk on something that isn't likely to pay for itself for a decade or more when they can barely get by now. And if I'm right, EV ranges will continue to increase to the point that most EV owners will rarely recharge in public, even on road trips. As a result, these gas station travel stop businesses will only see a fraction of the market share of EV owners that they do for ICE owners even if they do install and host compelling EV travel chargers. That would make the ROI even more protracted.
 

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Which is why it needs to be regulated and or subsidized in the beginning. For any reasonably compelling travel charger site (four to six 150+ kW chargers), you're asking these businesses to spend at least $250,000.
Your analysis ignores the main commodity, which is the megawatt-hours of electricity, and focuses on the fritos and soda. While large, the $250K NRE is not and should not be the biggest monetary concern.

Installing a set of DCFC charges is comparable in cost to installing a set of petroleum tanks and pumps. There are similar parallels for the cost of energy delivery, negotiating cuts of the fuel/energy, common payment networks, etc.

If a government mandates a gas station install DCFC, they are basically telling them to fork their business into two full parallel businesses, one of which is insanely unprofitable for years to come.

It's obvious this would never work, so it would make sense to assume the German government is actually mandating L2 chargers. Who knows; the article never bothered to say. And L2 chargers at gas stations are a truly pitiful idea.
 

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Your analysis ignores the main commodity, which is the megawatt-hours of electricity, and focuses on the fritos and soda. While large, the $250K NRE is not and should not be the biggest monetary concern.

Installing a set of DCFC charges is comparable in cost to installing a set of petroleum tanks and pumps. There are similar parallels for the cost of energy delivery, negotiating cuts of the fuel/energy, common payment networks, etc.

If a government mandates a gas station install DCFC, they are basically telling them to fork their business into two full parallel businesses, one of which is insanely unprofitable for years to come.

It's obvious this would never work, so it would make sense to assume the German government is actually mandating L2 chargers. Who knows; the article never bothered to say. And L2 chargers at gas stations are a truly pitiful idea.
Just as gasoline isn't the main commodity at a gas station, electricity wouldn't be the main commodity if they installed DC fast chargers. Currently, most gas stations only make a few cents profit per gallon of gas, which is why you see such significant differences between cash and credit car prices (the credit card transaction fee alone wipes out any profits on the gasoline). Likewise, public charging providers are not making money on the electricity they sell. Even at three to four times the cost of electricity at home, these charging providers are selling electricity at cost or even a loss. For these businesses, the fueling is the service that draws customers in, but it is not their primary profit center (that's the snacks, drinks, and other goods and services). DC fast chargers would also be operated at near cost (or potentially a slight profit), but for a business, the actual purpose of the DC fast charger is to draw customers in.

Yes, the cost of installing gas pumps is similar to the cost of installing DC fast chargers; however, you also have to account for both the throughput and total number of potential customers. Even if your assessment was right (and fuel was the key commodity), the throughput of gas pumps is so much higher than DCFC both on a unit of energy transferred and the number of customers that can be served in a day that the ROI of a gas pump would be measured in months rather than years or decades. Further, because there are easily 300 times more ICE vehicles on the roads than EVs and those ICE vehicles are ten times more reliant on public fueling than EVs, a gas pumps will stay far more active than DC fast chargers, also reducing their payoff period.
 

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Just as gasoline isn't the main commodity at a gas station, electricity wouldn't be the main commodity if they installed DC fast chargers. Currently, most gas stations only make a few cents profit per gallon of gas, which is why you see such significant differences between cash and credit car prices (the credit card transaction fee alone wipes out any profits on the gasoline). Likewise, public charging providers are not making money on the electricity they sell. Even at three to four times the cost of electricity at home, these charging providers are selling electricity at cost or even a loss. For these businesses, the fueling is the service that draws customers in, but it is not their primary profit center (that's the snacks, drinks, and other goods and services). DC fast chargers would also be operated at near cost (or potentially a slight profit), but for a business, the actual purpose of the DC fast charger is to draw customers in.

Yes, the cost of installing gas pumps is similar to the cost of installing DC fast chargers; however, you also have to account for both the throughput and total number of potential customers. Even if your assessment was right (and fuel was the key commodity), the throughput of gas pumps is so much higher than DCFC both on a unit of energy transferred and the number of customers that can be served in a day that the ROI of a gas pump would be measured in months rather than years or decades. Further, because there are easily 300 times more ICE vehicles on the roads than EVs and those ICE vehicles are ten times more reliant on public fueling than EVs, a gas pumps will stay far more active than DC fast chargers, also reducing their payoff period.
I concede that gas stations are low-profit operations. However, we do have a high ratio of gas-only service stations around here, showing they are profitable on the commodity alone.

The existence of DCFC charger networks also presumes electricity is, or soon will be, a commodity with a profitable cost differential. DCFC stations also benefit from lower costs of energy delivery (no physical trucks), lower real estate requirements (any old parking lot or garage), lower regulation (no EPA rules about leaky fuel tanks), and automated operation. It would be interesting to know how profits and costs are shared when a charging network company partners with a retail location.

So anyway, I presume people agree that Germany is making gas stations install only L2 chargers, not a huge expense but of questionable utility.

Also, nuclear plants would reduce the huge utility demand fees that are really what make DCFC unprofitable.
 

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I concede that gas stations are low-profit operations. However, we do have a high ratio of gas-only service stations around here, showing they are profitable on the commodity alone.

The existence of DCFC charger networks also presumes electricity is, or soon will be, a commodity with a profitable cost differential. DCFC stations also benefit from lower costs of energy delivery (no physical trucks), lower real estate requirements (any old parking lot or garage), lower regulation (no EPA rules about leaky fuel tanks), and automated operation. It would be interesting to know how profits and costs are shared when a charging network company partners with a retail location.
Yes, but those delivery costs for gasoline are not any different than paying for the "transportation" of electricity.

Also, the existence of DC fast chargers is debatable. One argument is that they are nothing more than stationary range extenders for electric vehicles, and just as internal combustion range extenders are seen as an interim or short-term solution for current battery capabilities and costs, so too could DC fast chargers be seen as an interim solution until battery technology and self-charging options become capable enough to replace all but the most niche of DCFC needs (e.g., commercial trucks and haulers).

Elsewhere on this forum, we've had extensive discussions about "500-mile EVs." Regardless of who's right and whether we should even be requesting EVs with that much range, the fact is, they will eventually be available. And when they are capable of 500 miles (even without self-charging capabilities such as the Lightyear One), the need for DC fast charging will be reduced almost to nil. The preference will be to charge on L2 AC at home, work, or destinations.

So anyway, I presume people agree that Germany is making gas stations install only L2 chargers, not a huge expense but of questionable utility.

Also, nuclear plants would reduce the huge utility demand fees that are really what make DCFC unprofitable.
I'm not sure anyone agrees with you on that one. Sure, it's possible that they include L2, but Europe overall has been focusing on DC fast chargers. Even with AC chargers, because Europe has 3 phase power, they are often 22 kW, or about the same speed as our slowest DCFC options.

You seem to be pretty emphatic about nuclear power, as well. I'm not sure I agree with you on that. Thorium reactors are pretty cool, but otherwise, meh.
 

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Electric companies are regulated in the US (suspect they are in Germany too). Seems like municipalities could dictate that the electric companies need to pick up the ball for providing electricity to EVs. Forget putting charge stations at a McDonalds. These things need to be placed right next to a substation. Put a McDonald's next to the substation. Then there's no demand fees as electric company has control and can anticipate the demand by communicating with the chargers (plus electric companies are starting to shave peak loads with storage capacity). When semis start needing to charge, we're talking mega watts.
 

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Perhaps we'd all be better off if we treated charging infrastructure like public bus systems where the fare price doesn't come anywhere near covering the cost of the ride, it pollutes more than if the rider had been a single occupant in a Toyota Camry, and it's incontinent as heck.

I'd have thought Germany is ahead of us in the lemming race for the cliff, but we're getting a strong 2nd wind here.
 
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