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Discussion Starter #41
People who own Tesla's are not interested in doing damage to Tesla's mystique, the only person on the planet that would do a cannonball run in a Tesla model 3 using only public DCFC is you! So, you need to develop the CCS adapter, and purchase yourself a Tesla and hit the road!!! :)

Keith

Sad thing is, I have the feeling that the moment you purchased a Tesla you would no longer be interested in damaging Tesla's mystique and would convert into being an uber-fanboy of Tesla the moment you signed a purchase agreement.
I think this would be a pretty good look for me...
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Discussion Starter #42
I just charged at a station in Port Moody yesterday, and even without plug-and-charge it was a pretty simple process. I just plugged in and waved my ChargePoint RFID card and I was off to the races. Less hassle than a gas pump.

The big deal in my mind is the labyrinth of EV charging networks and the need to sign up and maintain a dozen accounts so that you're ready for whatever network you end up at. THAT's where the hassle really is, IMHO. Plug and play alone won't solve that without that back-end payment portal that lets me create and manage one account that works everywhere.
Yes, I've actually found the RFID card to be the easiest method of payment. As you said, far easier than paying at a gas pump. I also agree that we need to at least consolidate the billing structures. The membership fees to get the best rates need to go away. The per minute fee structure needs to go away (other than a parking fee after a set period of time). The session time limits need to go away. All these networks have a lot of work to do, and I think it needs to be done in coordination with the automakers.
 

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Ah. Then we'll have to agree to disagree. Covering currently unsupported cities absolutely is as important as dedicated travel chargers at this point. Now, our disagreement might be in what we consider "cities," but to me, they are any large town (population center) that also has or serves as a government center (i.e., a county or state capital). If every county and state capital had at least one public DC fast charging site, traveling through the United States would be very easy in an EV. Not quite as fast or convenient as it would be with dedicated travel chargers, but close. Most importantly, though, it would make that travel possible.
In my opinion a fast charger in a city (however it is defined) has limited utility if you can't get to the next city using a fast charger. I might be unique but I have never used a fast charger within about 70 miles of my home. I could see it being useful if you are visiting a city for a few days and don't have access to over night charging.

Bismark North Dakota??..not until EA comes through the interstate (at least in my opinion)
 

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Discussion Starter #44
In my opinion a fast charger in a city (however it is defined) has limited utility if you can't get to the next city using a fast charger. I might be unique but I have never used a fast charger within about 70 miles of my home. I could see it being useful if you are visiting a city for a few days and don't have access to over night charging.

Bismark North Dakota??..not until EA comes through the interstate (at least in my opinion)
While I agree that charging in cities isn't always ideal, most interstate corridors pass through cities. The biggest reason I typically avoid charging in cities when I'm on a trip is crowding due to a higher concentration of EV owners, many of whom have smaller battery EVs that rely on public charging even for day-to-day routines. Having to travel a little farther to get to the charger can be an inconvenience, but it's not enough to have a huge impact on the trip either way.

Until recently, traveling to Utah and beyond from Southern California required using one of the dozen or so DC fast chargers located in the city of Las Vegas. Most of those chargers are only a block or so off the freeway with a number of the amenities that travelers would want access to, so it actually works out for travel. I could name a dozen other cities where the same is true, and they are equally effective at supporting long distance travel.

So again, I agree that dedicated travel chargers would be ideal for the purposes of travel, but city chargers can serve both to support local populations and travelers.
 

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I might be unique but I have never used a fast charger within about 70 miles of my home.
On our first trip to Tennessee, before there were any EA chargers, we charged sitting on the sidewalk in Blacksburg, Virginia, in the pouring rain. We left before I really wanted to, to beat the VT home game crowds leaving town. We stopped in Charlottesville for 10 minutes at the Homewood Suites to avoid any stress driving the last 25 miles in pouring rain, at midnight. All the chargers back then were 50 kW, and we did have to detour down into North Carolina to catch one of them. That god they all worked!

VT game night 1.jpg
 

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That sounds terrible but at lest there are plenty of fast charging up and down 81 now and even a (very unreliable fast charger in Blacksburg. I guess that is the question does someplace like Blacksburg need a fast charger. I go there all the time and charge up in Roanoke in a fast charger heading in and then slow charge in BBurg while I do my thing. I don't really think Blacksburg needs a fast charger, but its nice that it is there.

On the other hand I was sad when they took the fast charger in downtown in Staunton out of commission after the EA station in Staunton just off I-81 went up. Now I charge at Walmart eating fast food instead of enjoying unique restaurants downtown.
 

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On the other hand I was sad when they took the fast charger in downtown in Staunton out of commission after the EA station in Staunton just off I-81 went up. Now I charge at Walmart eating fast food instead of enjoying unique restaurants downtown.
Yes. We used the DC fast charger in downtown Staunton several times while eating in local restaurants. Maybe EVgo will put some in downtown.
 

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Discussion Starter #48
Yes. We used the DC fast charger in downtown Staunton several times while eating in local restaurants. Maybe EVgo will put some in downtown.
I'm curious whether EVgo and GM will accept suggestions for locations. I know that EVgo had a raffle for a free, discounted membership (I won one of them) for suggesting charging locations. Hopefully, they do that again.

Not doing it could indicate that they have a cohesive plan, though, so either way it could still be good. I still haven't heard where the 200 charging stations (100 kW) that Nissan funded were installed.
 

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It's my understanding that the latest version of the CCS standard includes the data protocol that passes the car's unique ID (probably a VIN)
I'd imagine, that since CCS communicates over a network connection that there would at least be a MAC address that's at least as good as a VIN for plug and charge on any older vehicles too, but I think there probably needs to be more security for the non plug and charge spec, since somebody could harvest MAC address from current cars and then spoof their own car for free (for them) charging. And good luck changing the MAC in the car after yours has been stolen.
 

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Also, EVgo.. my vote is in places like parks and waking paths, restaurants, etc. At least somewhere with shade or a picnic table! Walmart parking lots are the absolute worst. Dip spit, empty Monster cans, blazing hot asphalt and now old masks. Gas stations at least have that awning, and people are only there a few minutes!
 

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... about 8 min mark talks about the GM EVGo partnership.

 

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Also, EVgo.. my vote is in places like parks and waking paths, restaurants, etc. At least somewhere with shade or a picnic table! Walmart parking lots are the absolute worst. Dip spit, empty Monster cans, blazing hot asphalt and now old masks. Gas stations at least have that awning, and people are only there a few minutes!
You forgot to mention the homeless people walking around the Walmart parking lot at night in some locations... or that some of the Walmarts are not 24 hour (even before pandemic) so you had no access to a bathroom at night.

Personally, I think each charging location with more than 3 chargers should have a convenience store open 24/7. Gas stations make more money off of the convenience store than they do off of selling gas, and their customers are only there for 10 to 15 min vs charging station customers being around for 30 to 60 min.

Keith
 

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Discussion Starter #53
You forgot to mention the homeless people walking around the Walmart parking lot at night in some locations... or that some of the Walmarts are not 24 hour (even before pandemic) so you had no access to a bathroom at night.

Personally, I think each charging location with more than 3 chargers should have a convenience store open 24/7. Gas stations make more money off of the convenience store than they do off of selling gas, and their customers are only there for 10 to 15 min vs charging station customers being around for 30 to 60 min.

Keith
Yes. I think this is the point that most people are missing: These are 100 kW to 350 kW charging. GM was very specific that they wanted these chargers to support 10 minute to 30 minute stops. Parks might be an okay option, but convenience stores, coffee shops, restaurants, and grocery stores appear to be their primary targets.
 

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You forgot to mention the homeless people walking around the Walmart parking lot at night in some locations.
Wait, wait wait just a second here....They don't have homeless dudes at gas stations where you live?

Seriously though, in the electrify America charging vaults there's an ongoing problem with people moving into them. just hop the fence and open the door from the inside and you've got a great place to string up a tarp and a nice warm air blower. Bonus, no need to start a fire. There are worse places to shack up. For them anyways.

More to your point though, I do predict that as EV stations start to increase in prevalence and more concrete patterns emerge of their use and how long people will leave their vehicles unattended etc I think we'll begin to see a different variety of marauding weirdos than we do at the usual places. There will probably be security issues to be addressed in the future. In my experience however I can say that the freshly parolled meth head is a lot more scary than the average schizophrenic bag lady. Of course, it doesn't stop people from getting pushed into the street but I'd say probably happens less often than getting mugged. as for your idea about a 24-hour convenience store I can say from having lived in New York and Los Angeles long enough that anything 24 hours attracts a certain clientele of ne'er do wells in the wee hours. I guess the same can be said for my idea of cozy parks with picnic tables too. I'm sure there's a solution out there. And I will say as disgusting as Walmart parking lots are, along the freeway Walmarts are usually pretty conveniently placed and they definitely have the electricity for it.
 

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Discussion Starter #55
Wait, wait wait just a second here....They don't have homeless dudes at gas stations where you live?

Seriously though, in the electrify America charging vaults there's an ongoing problem with people moving into them. just hop the fence and open the door from the inside and you've got a great place to string up a tarp and a nice warm air blower. Bonus, no need to start a fire. There are worse places to shack up. For them anyways.

More to your point though, I do predict that as EV stations start to increase in prevalence and more concrete patterns emerge of their use and how long people will leave their vehicles unattended etc I think we'll begin to see a different variety of marauding weirdos than we do at the usual places. There will probably be security issues to be addressed in the future. In my experience however I can say that the freshly parolled meth head is a lot more scary than the average schizophrenic bag lady. Of course, it doesn't stop people from getting pushed into the street but I'd say probably happens less often than getting mugged. as for your idea about a 24-hour convenience store I can say from having lived in New York and Los Angeles long enough that anything 24 hours attracts a certain clientele of ne'er do wells in the wee hours. I guess the same can be said for my idea of cozy parks with picnic tables too. I'm sure there's a solution out there. And I will say as disgusting as Walmart parking lots are, along the freeway Walmarts are usually pretty conveniently placed and they definitely have the electricity for it.
I know a number of Tesla owners who refuse to charge in Ukiah, especially after dark. Basically, people hang out at the Superchargers because they know people will park there and leave their cars unattended for long enough to break in and steal whatever they find.
 

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I'm curious why you think a 500-mile road trip in a Bolt EV would be dangerous with a family of four. What danger, exactly, are you referring to?
This.

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Just not enough protection against the monster trucks and SUVs out there. If this was Europe and we were all driving little eono-boxes and commuter cars ... then fine ... we're all on equal footing when a crash occurs. But that's not the way it is over here ... so ... to me, it's too dangerous to put my kids in the back seat with so little protection.

Can you drive all that way with your family in a car as small as the Bolt? Of course you can. But that doesn't mean you should!

Would it feel unsafe in any way ... probably not ... until you got hit ... especially in the back end where your children would be. Then you would wish you'd have given them more protection back there.
 

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People have poor ability to rationally assess risk. That isn't to say that we can ignore vehicle safety, but too many people are motivated to purchase a large vehicle for "safety" even though there are bigger risks to their safety that go unaddressed, and considering a larger vehicle makes everyone else less safe.

More people accidentally poison themselves to death every year than die in a vehicle crash. Nearly the same number of people fall to their death.

3. Accidents (unintentional injuries)

Number of deaths per year:
161,374

Percent of total deaths: 5.9 percent

All unintentional injury deaths
  • Number of deaths: 169,936
  • Deaths per 100,000 population: 52.2
  • Cause of death rank: 3
Unintentional fall deaths
  • Number of deaths: 36,338
  • Deaths per 100,000 population: 11.2
Motor vehicle traffic deaths
  • Number of deaths: 40,231
  • Deaths per 100,000 population: 12.4
Unintentional poisoning deaths
  • Number of deaths: 64,795
  • Deaths per 100,000 population: 19.9
...and the #1 and #2 killers are by far the most prevelant:
  • Heart disease: 647,457
  • Cancer: 599,108
Obesity is a comorbidity for nearly all health related diseases. If Americans were truly concerned about safety, they would adopt healthy diets and get some exercise.


... coming back from our camping trip last week, our 1 hr drive home took 6 hours because an F150 crossed the center line and killed a guy in a VW Passat.
 

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Discussion Starter #58
This.

.

Just not enough protection against the monster trucks and SUVs out there. If this was Europe and we were all driving little eono-boxes and commuter cars ... then fine ... we're all on equal footing when a crash occurs. But that's not the way it is over here ... so ... to me, it's too dangerous to put my kids in the back seat with so little protection.

Can you drive all that way with your family in a car as small as the Bolt? Of course you can. But that doesn't mean you should!

Would it feel unsafe in any way ... probably not ... until you got hit ... especially in the back end where your children would be. Then you would wish you'd have given them more protection back there.
Size is not synonymous with protection and safety. I feel far safer in the Bolt EV than I do in a van, if for no other reason than maneuverability. Regardless, the Bolt EV scores very high in crash safety. Can you find a single vehicle fatality involving a Bolt EV? The Volt was the same way. I only know of one vehicle fatality, and that's because a family of four got t-boned by a young BMW driver doing over 120 mph through an intersection. :(
 

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People have poor ability to rationally assess risk. That isn't to say that we can ignore vehicle safety, but too many people are motivated to purchase a large vehicle for "safety" even though there are bigger risks to their safety that go unaddressed, and considering a larger vehicle makes everyone else less safe.

More people accidentally poison themselves to death every year than die in a vehicle crash. Nearly the same number of people fall to their death.

3. Accidents (unintentional injuries)

Number of deaths per year:
161,374

Percent of total deaths: 5.9 percent

All unintentional injury deaths
  • Number of deaths: 169,936
  • Deaths per 100,000 population: 52.2
  • Cause of death rank: 3
Unintentional fall deaths
  • Number of deaths: 36,338
  • Deaths per 100,000 population: 11.2
Motor vehicle traffic deaths
  • Number of deaths: 40,231
  • Deaths per 100,000 population: 12.4
Unintentional poisoning deaths
  • Number of deaths: 64,795
  • Deaths per 100,000 population: 19.9
...and the #1 and #2 killers are by far the most prevelant:
  • Heart disease: 647,457
  • Cancer: 599,108
Obesity is a comorbidity for nearly all health related diseases. If Americans were truly concerned about safety, they would adopt healthy diets and get some exercise.


... coming back from our camping trip last week, our 1 hr drive home took 6 hours because an F150 crossed the center line and killed a guy in a VW Passat.
So true that people have an exceedingly poor understanding of risk. That filters into many bad decisions in our country all in the name of "safety." But don't get me started! :geek:
 

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Wait, wait wait just a second here....They don't have homeless dudes at gas stations where you live?

Seriously though, in the electrify America charging vaults there's an ongoing problem with people moving into them. just hop the fence and open the door from the inside and you've got a great place to string up a tarp and a nice warm air blower. Bonus, no need to start a fire. There are worse places to shack up. For them anyways.

More to your point though, I do predict that as EV stations start to increase in prevalence and more concrete patterns emerge of their use and how long people will leave their vehicles unattended etc I think we'll begin to see a different variety of marauding weirdos than we do at the usual places. There will probably be security issues to be addressed in the future. In my experience however I can say that the freshly parolled meth head is a lot more scary than the average schizophrenic bag lady. Of course, it doesn't stop people from getting pushed into the street but I'd say probably happens less often than getting mugged. as for your idea about a 24-hour convenience store I can say from having lived in New York and Los Angeles long enough that anything 24 hours attracts a certain clientele of ne'er do wells in the wee hours. I guess the same can be said for my idea of cozy parks with picnic tables too. I'm sure there's a solution out there. And I will say as disgusting as Walmart parking lots are, along the freeway Walmarts are usually pretty conveniently placed and they definitely have the electricity for it.
The nice thing about living in fly over country is that the majority of the homeless are actually cared for here... most mentally ill and alcoholic / drug addicts are taken care of by family members, with only a very small number actually ending up out on the street. The only actual "homeless at Walmart" encounters I have had were in major cities... and that was only one or two wandering around. We don't have tent cities anywhere that I have ever lived. A 24/7 location here will have bored teenagers hanging out, but they are not going to mug you or cause trouble for fun...

Just my opinion, but the nice weather in SoCal is not worth the price.

Keith
 
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