[discodanman45]

This person did a great video on explaining the costs of driving an EV versus an ICE. There is lots of information here that will help you understand MPGe, efficiency, and also gives you a formula at the end to see how your costs can differ. This video is very well thought out and I urge everyone to watch.

 

[tomw]

Nice to see he explained the difference was due to efficiency, not cost per unit energy. Used to be a pet peeve of mine - when explaining why evs are cheap to operate people would say "because electric is so cheap", when of course in most areas of the U.S. it is actually more expensive than gas or diesel per unit energy. He referred to cost per kWh briefly. Would have been nice to see him expand that a bit more by making a chart of the two vehicles' energy usage per month and year, and cost to get people thinking more of cost per unit energy.

 

[NewsCoulomb]

Nice to see he explained the difference was due to efficiency, not cost per unit energy. Used to be a pet peeve of mine - when explaining why evs are cheap to operate people would say "because electric is so cheap", when of course in most areas of the U.S. it is actually more expensive than gas or diesel per unit energy. He referred to cost per kWh briefly. Would have been nice to see him expand that a bit more by making a chart of the two vehicles' energy usage per month and year, and cost to get people thinking more of cost per unit energy.

Average cost of electricity in the United States is 11 to 12 cents per kWh.

The average cost of gasoline in the United States is $2.50 a gallon. That's 7.4 cents per kWh.

 

[gregb]

Great video, I wonder how the numbers would compare if he used electrical costs for an EV based on using the public charging system? It might be less of a difference since his electrical costs seem to be lower than most people.

A comparison of the efficiency of different EVs might be revealing as he suggested that the Tesla falls in the middle.

 

[NewsCoulomb]

Great video, I wonder how the numbers would compare if he used electrical costs for an EV based on using the public charging system? It might be less of a difference since his electrical costs seem to be lower than most people.

A comparison of the efficiency of different EVs might be revealing as he suggested that the Tesla falls in the middle.

Yes, I actually did a video focusing on my total cost of fueling for two years, and the cost of using the public charging infrastructure represented more than half of the total fueling costs. It still balances out to less than the cost of gasoline: https://youtu.be/LrkIgPs5u0k

The problem with accounting for the cost of using the public charging infrastructure is the high amount of variance. You could take a snapshot by focusing on a specific network or charging session, and extrapolate from there. However, because people rarely rely exclusively on the public charging infrastructure or one provider or type of charger, that extrapolation isn't very accurate. Even using the same network could get tricky. For instance, a typical 30-minute session on a 50 kW charger will net a Bolt EV owner ~22 kWh, and in an EVgo region that charges 30 cents per minute, that equates to $9 for 22 kWh; 41 cents per kWh; or 10 cents per EPA rated mile. However, using an EVgo L2 AC charger at $1.50 an hour would cost about 5 cents per EPA-rated mile.

 

[cyaopec]

Average cost of electricity in the United States is 11 to 12 cents per kWh.

The average cost of gasoline in the United States is $2.50 a gallon. That's 7.4 cents per kWh.

Hmm. My 100 mile commute uses 20 kWh of electricity on an average day--50 mile slight descent/50 mile slight climb. My winter electricity cost are 17 cents per kWh. So even with 10% efficiency loss on charging I go 100 miles for $3.74. A car with 33 MPG would require 3 gallons. In CA it's about 3 bucks per gallon or 9 dollars a day it would be for me. So that's not a bad savings.

 

[gregb]

Quick reply! Just posted, then watched a 10 minute video that was not as math-oriented but showed a similar outcome for a Tesla (https://insideevs.com/tesla-model-3-cost-owning-1-year-video/), and you had already posted a comprehensive reply. Thanks for that.

In the video, the presenter did complain about the high cost of supercharging on road trips. It wouldn't take much public charging to increase the cost, IMO. EVs seem definitely tilted in favor of those who are middle/upper income and have the financial resources to take advantage of lower charging options.

Accounting for the cost of public charging will have to be one of those individual-based calculations that everyone has to make. Fortunately, for me, our trips to the coast, Sacramento, or the mountains can be handled by hotel, parking garage, or second home outlets; plus we are within one battery charge, or less, to all these places. The Bolt has been wonderful for these trips.

For EV owners in central and northern California, the PG&E bankruptcy might result in higher home charging so those figures (11 to 12 cents per KWh) could be less favorable in the future. Time for me to get solar!

 

[Pike Bishop]

Average cost of electricity in the United States is 11 to 12 cents per kWh.

The average cost of gasoline in the United States is $2.50 a gallon. That's 7.4 cents per kWh.

That's for now. If history is any measure, electricity is the more stably priced energy source. Below is the last 10 years of price variation on a national basis for gasoline and grid electricity. The prices are indexed to January 2009=100%:

There are many reasons for the stability of electric pricing, mainly because there are many ways of making electricity (I can make it on my rooftop!) and few practical ways to make gasoline.


If you want to bet on the future, there is a clear direction.



Source: https://www.bls.gov/regions/midwest/data/averageenergyprices_selectedareas_table.htm

 

[GregBrew]

That's for now. If history is any measure, electricity is the more stably priced energy source. Below is the last 10 years of price variation on a national basis for gasoline and grid electricity. The prices are indexed to January 2009=100%:

There are many reasons for the stability of electric pricing, mainly because there are many ways of making electricity (I can make it on my rooftop!) and few practical ways to make gasoline.


If you want to bet on the future, there is a clear direction.



Source: https://www.bls.gov/regions/midwest/data/averageenergyprices_selectedareas_table.htm

There's also those pesky regulations on electrical utilities via the PUC.

Predictable rates for monopolistic services is a crime! End all government regulations NOW! >

 

[redpoint5]

Electricity prices are also stabilized by rules about how much the price can increase in a given time, and utilities are only allowed a certain percentage of profit since they are a monopoly.

Petrol has no such limits.

 

[AlienBolt]

Meh. Eversource in MA charges 25 cents per kWh. TOU is not much better- 23 cents at night.... and driving electric still makes sense. And if you have solar panels it makes a lot of sense

 

[p7wang]

I really don't understand how utilities think they can continue charging such high rates. You can put up your own solar and get about 10 cents a KWh. And if push comes to shove, add a battery system that probably adds 17 cents and you can be effectively off grid. Looks like MA is at a point where more and more people may start defecting from the grid.

 

[ZoomZoom]

I really don't understand how utilities think they can continue charging such high rates. You can put up your own solar and get about 10 cents a KWh. And if push comes to shove, add a battery system that probably adds 17 cents and you can be effectively off grid. Looks like MA is at a point where more and more people may start defecting from the grid.

Depends on the market and the incentives that are out there. If you don't have any incentives like many states, you don't even break even with your solar purchase until year 7+, that's break even. For my state, I have a quote for a system and my break even point was over 10 years. But we have less sun than say California. It doesn't help that our utility provider fights the technology.

 

[p7wang]

Depends on the market and the incentives that are out there. If you don't have any incentives like many states, you don't even break even with your solar purchase until year 7+, that's break even. For my state, I have a quote for a system and my break even point was over 10 years. But we have less sun than say California. It doesn't help that our utility provider fights the technology.

MA is actually #1 for ROI, better get more quotes! Actually 10 year break even is almost a no-brainer, depending, of course, on any additional individual situation.

Inverter should last 10 years.
Solar panel should last at least 30 years, but use 20 years to be conservative.

All solar panel incentives & tax credits in 2023 by state

In addition to the 30% federal tax credit, states offer generous tax breaks, rebates, net metering and SRECs that lower the cost of going solar. Find out which ones are available in your state.

www.solarpowerrocks.com

 

[ZoomZoom]

I just am not a fan of something with a break even of 10 years. I've read the efficiency of the solar panels degrades over time and it just seems like something you do more because you want to save the planet than save money. My thoughts on it.

 

[p7wang]

I did not install solar because my average TOU rate is still lower than solar (based on 20 year life) - even with the 30% tax credit... I agree, there's still room for more improvements and my guess is that power prices will drop.

BTW, on degradation and panel life...

How Long do Solar Panels Last? Solar Panel Lifespan 101 | EnergySage

The lifetime of solar panels impacts your savings. We answer the question "how long do solar panels last" and what it means for you.

news.energysage.com

What does panel degradation rate mean exactly? For the above example, a 0.8% degradation rate means that in year two, your panels will operate at 99.2 percent of their original output; by the end of their 25-year “useful lifespan,” they will still be operating at 82.5%.A slightly more durable panel with a degradation rate of 0.5% will likely produce around 87.5% as much electricity as it did when it was first installed.

World's First Modern Solar Panel Still Works After 60 Years

The world's oldest solar panel--a 60 year-old crystal ball-like contraption--still works.

inhabitat.com

Consider this: the world’s oldest solar panel — a 60 year-old crystal ball-like contraption — still works.

 

[redpoint5]

I would think PV ROI is best in HI, where electricity rates are highest and the sun is most plentiful.

Another financial consideration is the opportunity cost of buying solar. If instead you invested the money, what would you have gained in 20 years? It isn't enough to simply break even at x number of years, it needs to translate into a better investment than alternatives.

Of course, there are other considerations besides financial, but from a financial standpoint opportunity cost is not to be ignored.