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It may be that what you want to know is “Can the car be brought to a stop in 'D' by just pressing the brake pedal without the the brake calipers ever (significantly?) gripping the wheels.” That is somewhat hard to be 100% sure about, because there is no way to tell for sure exactly what the brake calipers are doing. But likely the interaction between creep mode and the brake means that you need to push the brake hard enough to stop creep, and that is hard enough be gripping.

Mostly though, why care? Drive in the mode you enjoy, and understand that good drivers can drive very efficiently in both modes.
You might be able to tell with Torque Pro. There is a PID that shows power brake assist torque. If you don't press the brake hard enough to get a reading the pads may not be touching the discs. I haven't bothered to check. Maybe somebody could slip a piece of paper between the pad and the disc, and have someone else press the brake, and see when the pads actually touch.

But as you say..Who cares? The Bolt is so efficient that I find hypermiling a complete waste of effort.
 

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Vert if you're revving a manual to a high rpm in low gear, you're not driving it in a normal manner. A manual driven in a normal manner will behave more like D mode than L mode. Thats all I was getting at. Somebody in another thread said L mode behaved more like a manual trans.

Not sure why you're defending DSG's.. I've never driven a DSG. I don't like torque converters, so I don't buy cars with them. If that's crying then yeah boo hoo!
 

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Vert if you're revving a manual to a high rpm in low gear, you're not driving it in a normal manner.
Engine braking. Learn about it here.

Not sure why you're defending DSG's. I've never driven a DSG. I don't like torque converters, so I don't buy cars with them. If that's crying then yeah boo hoo!
I've driven planetary gearset (+ torque converter) automatics [old-ish and modern], DSGs, manual transmission cars, and the Bolt's single-speed transmission. I can usually find something to appreciate (perhaps not immediately, but after I get to know the car).

It's a bit like food. Someone who says that only good meal is a 16 oz steak and that curry is terrible isn't really providing a useful insight into the world of food — mostly they're revealing something about themselves, and their limited experience and perspective.
 

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Vert if you're revving a manual to a high rpm in low gear, you're not driving it in a normal manner. A manual driven in a normal manner will behave more like D mode than L mode. Thats all I was getting at. Somebody in another thread said L mode behaved more like a manual trans.
Man, I love downshifting and hardly use the brakes with a manual. It is very much like driving in 'L'. And the RPMs go up after every downshift.
 

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Vertiformed said:
It seems like your question isn't “Can the car be brought to a stop in 'D' without friction brakes?”, because the answer is absolutely yes, using the regen paddle.
Nope. That was the question, and that is the answer. I'll try it when I get home. I had no idea. Thanks.
 

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Engine braking. Learn about it here.
At the link you cited, between 0:15 and 0:50 the guy discusses that he is simply referring to letting off the accelerator while in gear. He rejects the idea of downshifting in a jarring manner. I'm not entirely clear what he would say about downshifting in a smoother manner, I've lost track of whether that helps illustrate your point or not.
 

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In the world of ICE engines, a 150 hp engine producing 15 hp to maintain a constant 35 mph (i.e., producing only 10% of its maximum output power) just isn't operating at peak efficiency. In contrast, if you drive at 72 mph, you need 36 hp of output power (which is 24% of the engine's maximum output power) and is at a point where it does operate pretty efficiently. This is why ICE vehicles typically have much better freeway mpg than city mpg (although city mpg is also affected by more frequent stops). Pulse and glide is basically “how do I make sure when I run the engine, it's always producing 25-40% of its maximum power output, not 10%”. Constant power output to (gently) accelerate up a set (over-) speed and then coasting back down to a(n under-) speed will do that.

Electric motors are efficient across a wide range of operating speeds and power. There is zero need to do this, none. Just drive at constant output power.

Also, in addition to being pointless, putting the car into neutral while driving is illegal in many states. It's also not productive, because the motor remains connected to the wheels, so will still incur friction losses. It is better to add a tiny amount of regen on top of those friction losses to power the car (zero power going to or coming from the traction battery) than it is to put the car in neutral and pull power from the traction battery to power the car. Thus it is much better to modulate accelerator pedal pressure to get 0 kW on the display than put the car in neutral and see 1 kW.

For those who aren't skilled at modulating their pressure on the pedal, what kind of hypermiler are they? The first thing anyone who cares about efficiency should learn is how to properly operate the car's controls.
There may be little or no value to pulse and glide in EVs for the reason stated, as to optimizing engine efficiency. Still, I'd like to hear more directly from experienced EV hypermilers as to which techniques they find useful. Notwithstanding the armchair calculations, the actual experience may reveal some points. I'd already heard from at least one Leaf hypermiler a long time ago they found it useful at times to switch to neutral. Hypermilers have achieved extraordinary ranges in Bolts and other EVS. For example:

https://electrek.co/2017/09/13/chevy-bolt-ev-travels-750-km-466-miles-single-charge/
Chevy Bolt EV travels 750 km (466 miles) on a single charge
Fred Lambert
- Sep. 13th 2017 11:39 am ET
@FredericLambert

This was an Ampera-E and it seems the primary (or only, I don't know) technique used to achieve the range was low speed, but still, I think it would be useful to know more from folks' empirical experiences.

As to coasting in neutral not being legal in some cases: The various techniques of hypermiling may not all be glamorous, and may not all be practical for everday driving, and in cases may technically be illegal, but they are, for better or worse, the techniques of hypermiling. In the end, some of them may not cross-apply from combustion vehicle to EV, but some of them will.
 

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I suppose the other way to game the system is to draft behind a semi truck when you're on the highway. Yes, it's dangerous as **** but you should get 20-40% drag reduction at a reasonable distance...and with these cars reducing drag is everything.
As a former G1 Honda Insight driver, I can tell you that low-pressure pocket behind a semi is smaller, and more dangerous, than people wanna believe. And right behind the low-pressure pocket is a massive wall of turbulence, which is much worse, fuel-economy-wise, than just driving in free air.
Your best bet for drafting is to reduce wind resistance by driving in formation with other people on a freeway like flocks of birds do it.
 

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It may be that what you want to know is “Can the car be brought to a stop in 'D' by just pressing the brake pedal without the the brake calipers ever (significantly?) gripping the wheels.”
It's always been my assumption that holding the brake pedal down to prevent the car from moving in "D" mode relies on the hydraulic brakes. And that there is some point during braking from speed in "D" mode where deceleration is handed off from regenerative braking to friction braking, because you simply can't regen at very low speeds.

"L" mode comes to the last stages of a stop by actually using energy to apply reverse power to the motor. Why use the power to do that in "D" mode since you're already using the brake pedal? The braking system on the Bolt can easily apply the hydraulic brakes electronically no matter where the brake pedal is in its travel, otherwise we wouldn't have "Hill Start Assist".

It's all a bit moot, though - because at the kind of low speeds we're talking about where there's some question over what's being used to slow the car the energy requirements are next to nothing.
 

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Worth a note, its likely beneficial to flex those mechanical brakes occasionally.. Heaven forbid a layer of grime prevents good emergency braking and you know nothing of it. The whole obsession with NEVER using your frictions brakes seems to me an unhealthy one.

It's almost like @hatchy doesn't know how to properly drive a manual. >:)
I'll just add this for the folks who don't know you're joking... brakes are designed to brake, and transmissions are designed for other things. Brake pads are $20 and an hour to replace. Transmissions not so much.
 

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It's always been my assumption that holding the brake pedal down to prevent the car from moving in "D" mode relies on the hydraulic brakes. And that there is some point during braking from speed in "D" mode where deceleration is handed off from regenerative braking to friction braking, because you simply can't regen at very low speeds.
I have never driven with D mode, so I can't comment on that, but it seems to me that regen will work equally well at low speeds as at high speeds. Its an electric motor, which has all its torque available at 0 mph, so it follows that it will have equally high torque when it is working in reverse, regen mode, too, no matter what the speed, near zero, or higher speed. In L mode, just take your foot off the pedal and hit the paddle from 40 mph. The car comes to a stop in no time, and there is no fading of the regen. The torque curve of electric motors is not quite flat over the speed range, but its pretty close for practical purposes. An electric motor has all its torque available at 0 mph, so it follows it has all its torque available as it comes to a halt. That's why regen braking works.....
 

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I'll just add this for the folks who don't know you're joking... brakes are designed to brake, and transmissions are designed for other things. Brake pads are $20 and an hour to replace. Transmissions not so much.
Do explain where and why excess wear would occur if you use engine braking. Remember that (unless you press the clutch) whenever you release the gas pedal engine braking is occurring (i.e., the motion of the car makes the engine turn vs the engine pushing the car).

Do you really think that changing down as you head into a corner is inadvisable because it wears out the transmission? Is this the ICE equivalent if battery babying? “Oh noes, I dare not change gear or take my foot off the gas for fear of wearing something out!”. (Don't press that clutch too often either! Who knows what might happen from normal use!)

>:)
 

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Do explain where and why excess wear would occur if you use engine braking. Remember that (unless you press the clutch) whenever you release the gas pedal engine braking is occurring (i.e., the motion of the car makes the engine turn vs the engine pushing the car).

Do you really think that changing down as you head into a corner is inadvisable because it wears out the transmission? Is this the ICE equivalent if battery babying? “Oh noes, I dare not change gear or take my foot off the gas for fear of wearing something out!”. (Don't press that clutch too often either! Who knows what might happen from normal use!)
It's your car; drive it how you will. But yes, any action which increases engine speed and load via gear selection will result in additional stress, strain and wear. The extent this will manifest in reduced engine life, increased oil consumption, transmission failures, is unknowable, depending on the robustness of the design of components. (This discussion has been with us since the dawn of the automobile. I still remember a girlfriend whose first car was a Renault Caravelle. Her father proudly told her she'd been given a sports car and taught her "Never lug the engine. Downshift for corners. Use the redline. " That little POS was totally toast in 10,000 miles of doing exactly what she was taught. A male friend bought a Ford 390" 4-speed; he always drove it as hard and fast as it would run and never had a problem in 100,000 miles.)

Bottom line: Do it your way. I have a good friend who's a serious hypermiler; has driven Honda Accords for many years and they're still like new when he buys another. He states proudly he's never ever had to use full throttle upshifts or cornered hard enough to wear the little rubber bumps off the side of the tread on his 45 PSI tires. The idea he'd downshift for a corner would horrify him.

jack vines
 

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It's your car; drive it how you will. But yes, any action which increases engine speed and load via gear selection will result in additional stress, strain and wear. The extent this will manifest in reduced engine life, increased oil consumption, transmission failures, is unknowable, depending on the robustness of the design of components. (This discussion has been with us since the dawn of the automobile. [...]
I can't say I fully knew that this had been a matter of discussion for so long, but I guess I had some sense of it. It is echoed in the fact that the link that Vertiformed provided on engine braking

https://jalopnik.com/actually-engine-braking-is-fine-1818491096

makes the point starting at about 0:15-0:45 that (in the speaker's opinion) engine braking while in the same gear is fine, but downshifting for braking is not fine.
 

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I have never driven with D mode, so I can't comment on that, but it seems to me that regen will work equally well at low speeds as at high speeds. Its an electric motor, which has all its torque available at 0 mph, so it follows that it will have equally high torque when it is working in reverse, regen mode, too, no matter what the speed, near zero, or higher speed. In L mode, just take your foot off the pedal and hit the paddle from 40 mph. The car comes to a stop in no time, and there is no fading of the regen. The torque curve of electric motors is not quite flat over the speed range, but its pretty close for practical purposes. An electric motor has all its torque available at 0 mph, so it follows it has all its torque available as it comes to a halt. That's why regen braking works.....
Is this an accurate depiction of why and how the regen works on the Bolt or on some other EVs? I've never really looked into it across all EVS, but my understanding of regen in general has been:

- at higher speeds, regen works nicely, but it is useful to keep in mind that it is far from 100% efficient. Thus, if the overall goal (such as in hypermiling) is to go as far as possible on small amounts of energy, it is better to avoid setting yourself up for situations where you are going to have to choose to use the brakes (even if they do recycle some of the energy) and it is arguably not a good idea (from an energy saving standpoint) to drive in a way where the car itself will choose to use the brakes a lot (though these decisions of course are intertwined with safety, traffic, etc.). On this last point, one can still use something like a well-designed one-pedal driving mode if one has good control over the pedal to the point of only invoking a cycle of acceleration and regen braking a minimal amount of time. My guess is that there might be some debate amongst serious hypermilers as to the best way to approach the decisions and nuances in that area, but I don't know.

- at lower speeds, I had thought that the friction brakes have to be there to make sure to stop the car, whether because you can't have a situation where energy is so depleted that the car can't stop, [and now I am reminded by wikipedia that friction brakes are claimed needed such as in some parking situations]. More importantly, I had thought that most (or all) of the light duty vehicles we see are equipped with a regen brake setup that is more passive. Is this not the case?

There does seem to be some discussion of some of the issue (of whether EVs as we know them today actively apply brakes to get down to zero mph or close to it) here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regenerative_brake#Practical_regenerative_braking

This includes a mention of the Bolt being able to go to zero mph under some circumstances.

I don't know that this fully satisfies the question of if and to what extent electromagnetic brakes could be applied regularly to brake the car down to zero mph, and then I guess it would be a separate question of how much energy this costs.

Since EVS have two braking systems and not just one (as with CVs), perhaps it can be said that at least one aspect of EV hypermiling decisions is in some aspect more complex than with combustion vehicles, and not less so. I made the point awhile back that it looks to me that some of the reason for hypermiling is as a hobby, and one of the things about hobbies is that they can have an interesting educational component. In this case for example, a hypermiler who arrives at a better understanding of the brake technology, options and efficiencies on an EV might (I guess) be able to improve their miles/kWh.
 

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It's your car; drive it how you will. But yes, any action which increases engine speed and load via gear selection will result in additional stress, strain and wear. The extent this will manifest in reduced engine life, increased oil consumption, transmission failures, is unknowable, depending on the robustness of the design of components. (This discussion has been with us since the dawn of the automobile. I still remember a girlfriend whose first car was a Renault Caravelle. Her father proudly told her she'd been given a sports car and taught her "Never lug the engine. Downshift for corners. Use the redline. " That little POS was totally toast in 10,000 miles of doing exactly what she was taught. A male friend bought a Ford 390" 4-speed; he always drove it as hard and fast as it would run and never had a problem in 100,000 miles.)

Bottom line: Do it your way. I have a good friend who's a serious hypermiler; has driven Honda Accords for many years and they're still like new when he buys another. He states proudly he's never ever had to use full throttle upshifts or cornered hard enough to wear the little rubber bumps off the side of the tread on his 45 PSI tires. The idea he'd downshift for a corner would horrify him.
Good advice for less gas used and less engine wear is, IMHO, in order of relevance: drive less, anticipate the road ahead and drive gently, in traffic go with the flow, and when you dictate the pace, don't speed and don't drive at the car's limits. Use or avoidance of engine braking is far down the list, making whether it is a pro or con mostly moot.

We can also say that driving spiritedly, while fun perhaps, causes more wear and uses more gas. But if we want to downrate our own pleasure and uprate component wear and fuel used, we should avoid getting into a personal car at all. We should board the bus.

Notwithstanding all of the above (i.e., whether we should even care) the question of whether engine braking is good or bad requires thinking through all that goes on in situations where we need to slow the car.

If you see a red stop light ahead, the best thing to do is start gently slowing the car (on a good day, the light will change to green before you get there and you'll never need to completely stop at all). Let's consider a few approaches to that slowing process, assuming a manual transmission car:


  1. No engine braking. Push the clutch and gently press the brake. Engine revs will drop to about 1000 rpm (reducing, but not eliminating, wear) but the car will be burning fuel. There will be wear from combustion (explosions!) happening in the engine, wear on the fuel pump, and wear on the brakes. There is some transmission braking because the car is still in gear, and some wear on the transmission from being spun by the wheels (the clutch disconnected it from the engine, not the wheels). Because the engine and the wheels are disconnected, if the light goes green you'll need to change gear to a lower gear and release the clutch, causing at least the normal wear of a gear change. Failure to rev-match will cause additional wear.
  2. No engine braking, no transmission braking — use neutral. As above, but rather than hold the clutch while braking, pop the car into neutral and release the clutch. This will reduce wear on the transmission (which will otherwise still be spinning while the engine idles). It will cause the wear of changing into and out of gear (as well as the wear from allowing the transmission to come to rest and then spinning it back up to speed if the light goes green before we get there).
  3. Engine braking. You take your foot off the gas without pressing the clutch and the drag of the engine slows the car. Perhaps as the car gets slower and engine RPM drops below 800, you need to change down. Engine revs average higher than option 1 (increased wear), but no combustion is happening in the engine and no fuel is flowing (reducing wear). No brake wear occurs. There will be wear on the transmission from changing down. But if the light goes green, you're already in the right gear, so you can just smoothly (and gently) accelerate.

I think most hypermilers would use the third option because it avoids needlessly wasting fuel while the car is slowing. The question of what causes most wear to which components complex. Does idling an engine at 1000 rpm cause more wear than freewheeling it at 3000 rpm? Is it more important to carefully rev-match your shifts than avoid changing down for engine braking? etc.

Finally, is the person who has a 5 mile commute to work and drives it spiritedly putting less annual wear on their engine than the person with a 10 mile commute and drives it like they have a glass of milk on the passenger seat that they don't want to spill? We don't just have the added miles, we also have the fact that the sprinted driver, by staying in lower gears and using more power, may be warming the engine up quicker.

Meh.
 

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I know DC motors brake by simply shorting (or using low resistance) the leads. That's how cordless drills stop when you release the trigger (short the terminals). Not sure if the Bolt motor can do the same, but I would be surprised if the last bit of braking is accomplished essentially by running the motors in reverse, using power.

Regarding hypermiling techniques, I coast in my ICE when I need to preserve speed, but use engine braking when I need to slow because that cuts fuel flow to the engine. Wear to the engine is practically nothing to engine brake because you aren't burning fuel (creating torque). The wear would occur on the clutch and synchros. I usually double-clutch to minimize synchro wear. I've never worn a clutch out, though I have bought a vehicle that came with a worn out clutch. I can go at least 120,000 miles on a clutch. We'll see how long I can make one last.
 

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Worth a note, its likely beneficial to flex those mechanical brakes occasionally.. Heaven forbid a layer of grime prevents good emergency braking and you know nothing of it. The whole obsession with NEVER using your frictions brakes seems to me an unhealthy one.


I'll just add this for the folks who don't know you're joking... brakes are designed to brake, and transmissions are designed for other things. Brake pads are $20 and an hour to replace. Transmissions not so much.

Yeah, the mechanic for my S2000 tells me the same thing, but gads I enjoy downshifting into corners and accelerating out of them...>:)
 

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Yeah, the mechanic for my S2000 tells me the same thing, but gads I enjoy downshifting into corners and accelerating out of them...>:)
For true. Legend has it Honda built an S2000 with an experimental CVT which matched the road speed and engine torque curve at all times. It was quicker, smoother and more economical than the 6-speed manual, but not one of their focus group drivers said they'd consider buying a CVT. Just not as much perceived fun to drive. They loved ripping up through the gears and bangshifting at 8,000 RPMs. Just having the engine stay in its most efficient range was boring, even though they were accelerating faster.

Thinking about it, I've had some of my troglodyte motorhead friends say the same about the Tesla Ludicrous experience. "Yeah, it's faster, but there's no sturm und drang. Half the fun of acceleration is impressing bystanders with the smokin' tires and the revs and the speed shifts."

jack vines
 
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