Chevy Bolt EV Forum banner

121 - 129 of 129 Posts

·
Registered
2020
Joined
·
333 Posts
What drives me nuts (before I stopped watching commercials) was seeing all the new "disposable this" and "disposable that" items. I don't need a toilet scrubber where the head pops off so I can flush it down the crapper! Not only is it a huge waste of resources, it is not "really" disposable, just because you can flush something doesn't mean it will makes it's way through the sewer system without causing trouble.

Keith
It shows me that few companies and people are truly serious about reducing and recycling.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,302 Posts
It shows me that few companies and people are truly serious about reducing and recycling.
When I was growing up, Michigan had $.10 deposit on cans and bottles, and with 3 empty cans you could get a candy bar and get $.05 change, and it was easy to turn in cans, you took them to the clerk at the counter, he counted them and gave you a slip worth the deposit on the cans you turned in. Now, you take empty cans into a stinking room (smells mostly of spilled beer) full of gnats, and feed them into a machine one at a time where 2 out of 10 are rejected by the machine (even though they are from Michigan or other participating states, the barcode is scratched, or obscured) and it takes 10 or more cans to get a candy bar.

10 cans is still a dollar, so many people will recycle their own cans and bottles... but when I was a kid we would pick up cans and bottles that were thrown out as litter... I don't think it is worth a kids time to bend over and pick up a 10 cent bottle any more with the hassle of turning them in, and the low purchase power of a dime.

Keith

PS: What I am saying is that the deposit needs to go up to $.25 and the turn in process needs to be less disgusting.

PPS: Also, bottle and can deposits should be nation wide, and on ALL drink containers (water bottles, gator aid etc.)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
I believe many of you are missing my point. There are new EV owners who think that it's not possible to charge their cars unless they install an L2 charger. So they drop upwards of $1K purchasing a new EVSE and dropping in a new electrical line without ever giving consideration to the fact that there are other options. So, instead of making a reasoned choice to install an L2, out of FOMO it gets done automatically.

We had a case here with a new owner asking about L2. It was determined that their average daily use of a Bolt was 12 miles per day. IIRC they invested in a Juice Box 40 and an electrical line. I find that to be a kneejerk reaction because the circumstances of use justifies only plugging in the OEM EVSE into a 120V wall socket for charging 3 hours each night.

I think some of you L2 folks should try the experiment of using only L1 for a month and see exactly how many times you actually need that L2 connection. I have both with my L2 shared with an active dryer line. So, I only use L2 when I actually need it as I have to swap cables to charge with it. Most months it gets zero usage. And I drive a sub 100 mile EV.

All I've ever said to new owners is try using L1 before making any decisions. Just don't automatically assume that you will be lacking unless you purchase and install an L2 immediately. I think that it's important to differentiate between necessity and convenience. But if everyone does an automatic L2 install upon purchase, they never get to make a choice.

It's crucial as we move forward to point this out. With Bolt prices both new and used dropping like a rock, there will be more and more new uninformed owners coming here for information. Please don't just tell them how you feel about L2. Give them the facts and suggest that they try different options before making a decision.

That is all...

ga2500ev
I certainly see your point, and it’s definitely valid, but so are other strategies. We personally used nothing but L1 charging with the OEM EVSE for a few months to get a feel for how it might meet our needs and comfort level, and it allowed time to prep for a L2 purchase and installation.

I think it’s important to remind ourselves that a great number of the people who frequent sites like this are seeking factual, and others’ experiential, information at a level that, perhaps, a majority of the public never would. Use patterns and expectations with regard to automobile travel have been habituated over many years, and in order for large segments of the population to realize EV’s may be a practical alternative for them, they may be more receptive if the transition allows a less drastic adjustment to many of their use patterns, expectations, and comfort level. A lot of our family, friends, and acquaintances are still relatively ignorant to the world of EV’s, so it’s reasonable to expect them to want to make their change to EV’s seem like they’re not making some backward step with regard to range, charging speed/ease/availability/flexibility, so they obviously pursue L2, or even something faster (maybe someday). They don’t want to spend $30k-$70k for a vehicle without knowing they can charge conveniently and quickly to cover routine and greater, unexpected demands, or the EV purchase will leave them with a sour taste. They may not want to appreciate efficient energy management or finesse their car. They just want to drive, sometimes hard, fast, and far (or at least feel they can). EV’s are largely a practical reality, but not to all drivers in ways they’re willing to accept, yet; the habits ingrained by decades of advertisers drilling into our heads and the petroleum industry painting the default landscape make change very difficult.

Your or my reasoning may make sense on several levels, but it might not, to someone else, even if only because of their “emotional reasons.” Why do some people buy more inefficient, gas-guzzling ICE cars or really large SUV’s or pickup trucks when there are compelling reasons against such choices, even among ICE choices? Why buy any car that’s over $50k, $80k, $100k, or that tops 100mph, or 160mph? Yet, many do. EV technology has already shown it can exceed decades of artfully and scientifically “massaging” engines of exotic, expensive European sports cars, yet how long might it be before those cars are only sought among nostalgic collectors?

I think some people will take a more measured, methodical approach, others may weigh the options and leap-frog a level after a mental, risk/benefit assessment, and some just seem to defy any logic whatsoever and go nuts.

I’ve found that my EV driving experience is surprisingly reminiscent to that of flying a sailplane; flight planning, energy management, trading potential energy for kinetic energy and back, speed and altitude relationships, yet there are still times I know I’ve got plenty of range so I just enjoy the drive. I’ve even given in (I’m sorry to admit) to the need to leave some annoying or potentially dangerous driver “in the dust,” only to find him or her catch up later, not to fight or drag race, but to look with astonishment and wonder WTF I’m driving. I think it’s great we’re trading in hydrocarbon for electrons. We all may seek one another’s advice, but still make our own decisions, not always for “the best” reasons. Let’s drive.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
565 Posts
It really doesn't matter what choice an individual makes about using their car IMO. However, it does matter when they make their choices out of ignorance. A quote from the Matrix comes to mind with a lot of folks I see here "You've already made the choice. Now you need to understand it." Of course, I find that to be backwards. An informed choice is almost always better.

ga2500ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,302 Posts
It really doesn't matter what choice an individual makes about using their car IMO. However, it does matter when they make their choices out of ignorance. A quote from the Matrix comes to mind with a lot of folks I see here "You've already made the choice. Now you need to understand it." Of course, I find that to be backwards. An informed choice is almost always better.

ga2500ev
Yup, I still remember pages of discussion of what is the best 32 amp L2 EVSE for a person, only to find out they drive less than 50 miles a WEEK (what was it, 13 miles a day? I could be wrong on that... I almost want to say it was 13 miles a week, not 13 miles a day) but I remember it was a baffling reminder to always ask the use case of the car in question before giving purchasing advice.

Keith
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
134 Posts
All cars burn more energy at freeway speeds. That's not really a question. An efficiency of 3 mi/kWh is about right for 70 to 80 mph driving in the Bolt EV. And, yes, faster charging does help to cover up for poor efficiency, so again, that's not really a question.

Also, a long trip in a Tesla Model 3 should feel better than a Bolt EV because that's where the extra money went. The Model 3 was designed for freeway speed efficiency, and it has a more expensive, faster charging battery.

The question here, though, is for those who do drive the Bolt EV long distances, which reduces trip time more: Driving slower and charging less, or driving faster and charging more? Up to about 80 mph in typical weather conditions, the latter will make for faster trip speeds in the Bolt EV.

The same is true for the Tesla Model 3, though to a greater degree. For the Model 3, if memory serves, the point of diminishing returns is ~120 mph in typical weather, which gives it more resiliency for traveling.

Ultimately, the principle remains the same. If you want to reduce your trip time, reduce your time spent driving. That will have the greatest impact. It's true for ICE vehicles. It's true for EVs. The only exceptions I know of are EVs without DC fast charging or active thermal management systems for their batteries.
That all depends on actually having enough 50kW+ charging stations located where and when you need them. My latest trip from south of Denver to Custer State Park, Mt. Rushmore and Badlands N.P. relied entirely on level 1 and 2 AC charging and two 24 kW DC chargers (in Cheyenne and Rapid City). Going 60 - 70 mph (or less) rather than 80 mph saved me a lot of time charging at 1.3 kW, 6.6 kW or even 24 kW, not to mention $. In fact, I barely made it (1% left) from Douglas, WY hotel (with Tesla destination charger) to Custer, SD (J-1772) going well under the speed limit because of strong headwinds and lots of climbing. The return trip on that segment was better but still had headwinds and had to keep power to less than 25 kW to make it. That meant going as slow as 55 mph up some hills.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,714 Posts
That all depends on actually having enough 50kW+ charging stations located where and when you need them. My latest trip from south of Denver to Custer State Park, Mt. Rushmore and Badlands N.P. relied entirely on level 1 and 2 AC charging and two 24 kW DC chargers (in Cheyenne and Rapid City). Going 60 - 70 mph (or less) rather than 80 mph saved me a lot of time charging at 1.3 kW, 6.6 kW or even 24 kW, not to mention $. In fact, I barely made it (1% left) from Douglas, WY hotel (with Tesla destination charger) to Custer, SD (J-1772) going well under the speed limit because of strong headwinds and lots of climbing. The return trip on that segment was better but still had headwinds and had to keep power to less than 25 kW to make it. That meant going as slow as 55 mph up some hills.
I would say, it depends just on having just 50 kW chargers. Slower than that, and you can't just drive how you want without significant compromise, but 125 A chargers actually enable most people to drive the Bolt EV the way they would drive any other car. Of course, I have to emphasize most people here, assuming the average person drives close to the posted speed limit. At that point, as I've stated a number of times, the Bolt EV is able to pass the minimum acceptable bar for travel of a 3:1 driving to charging time ratio, even at 70 mph to 75 mph driving speeds.

Also, I think one of the biggest learning curves for people who are new to EVs is that charger placement matters as much as if not more than charger speed. If you're having to charge to 100% just to reach the next charger, you're going to spend a lot more time than normal. I saw a Tesla Model 3 SR+ owner post up a ~600 mile trip that they made, and they took longer to complete it than one of my average 600-mile trips in the Bolt EV. Their complaint? Because the spacing of the Superchargers was so far, they had to charge up to 100% every time, and they had to reduce their speed to complete a couple of legs of the trip. So charging at 170 kW peak rate using only Superchargers didn't matter because they had to spend an hour charging to full each stop in order make it to the next charger 150 to 200 miles away.
 

·
Registered
2020 Silver Ice Metallic Premier Bolt
Joined
·
19 Posts
Discussion Starter #128
I quickly found that once my charge rate started to taper, taking off as soon as I could safely get to my next charging location was key. From what I've seen, even with cars that have higher charge rates things start to equalize the closer you get to topping off your battery. The appeal of batteries that provide 400 or more miles of range isn't so much that 100% range, it's the ability to add 200-250 miles range at a high charging rate.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,714 Posts
I quickly found that once my charge rate started to taper, taking off as soon as I could safely get to my next charging location was key. From what I've seen, even with cars that have higher charge rates things start to equalize the closer you get to topping off your battery. The appeal of batteries that provide 400 or more miles of range isn't so much that 100% range, it's the ability to add 200-250 miles range at a high charging rate.
Several different charging profiles and philosophies are currently in place. Some are the result of limitations with the hardware (for instance, EVs with thicker electrode cells, such as the Chevy Bolt EV and Hyundai Kona Electric, use a charging profile that steps down significantly at ~ 50% battery), but some are an active choice.

Currently, the biggest debate (at least on these forums, anyway) appears to be whether a charging taper or a flat charging rate are preferable. I think that ultimately, the latter will win out, but there are those who seem overly focused on the peak charging speed. Two real-world examples of this are the Audi e-tron (flat charging profile) and the Porsche Taycan (tapered charging curve). The Taycan, which is currently the fastest charging EV, will charge at a peak speed of 270 kW, and it will reach 80% in just over 20 minutes (an average charging speed to 80% of over 185 kW). The Audi e-tron, on the other hand, only peaks at 155 kW, but it holds that speed until over 80% battery (an average charging speed of 155 kW to 80%, obviously).

To me, the flat charging curve is where we should hope to be in the future because it doesn't require the owner to build their trips and stops around the needs of the car. Now, yes, the charging of the Taycan appears preferable over the e-tron, but that's only because the Taycan is maintaining a faster average charging rate to 80%. In other words, I'd much rather have a Taycan with a flat charging speed of 185 kW to 80% than the current, tapered curve. Both would charge from 5% to 80% in the same amount of time, but the flat charging profile would charge from 50% to 80% much faster.

This is actually where I hope to see GM go with their Ultium line. They've been pretty guarded about the actual charging speeds for the Ultium line, but it's possible we could see peak charging rates approaching 200 kW on the "400 V" systems and 400 kW on the "800 V" systems. In either case, I'd want to see GM focus on a flat charging profile that doesn't require owners to deplete their battery to under 20% and make short 10 to 15 minute stops just to maintain the fastest charging speed.
 
121 - 129 of 129 Posts
Top