[GetOffYourGas]

That's certainly true, but we don't have the pricing structure standardized and reasonable.

I've checked out a few CCS/SAE charging stations in Virginia and the DC Metro area, and it seems to me that if you have to resort to using these on a regular basis, you've basically blown the EV cost benefits to ****.

240 volt, 32 amp, 7.5 kW charging at home seems to be the sweet spot.

Agreed. Demand charges are deal killers for affordable fast-charging though. Maybe there is a sweet spot just below the demand charge threshold, maybe 30-40kW "urban" fast chargers could fill this niche affordably.

The pricing on the East Coast seems to be standardizing around $0.35/kWh, give or take. That includes Virginia and DC Metro. That's pricey, but for highway chargers, I'm happy to pay it. Especially if my next EV can charge around 100kW.

 

[ga2500ev]

Agreed. Demand charges are deal killers for affordable fast-charging though. Maybe there is a sweet spot just below the demand charge threshold, maybe 30-40kW "urban" fast chargers could fill this niche affordably.

I've been on the medium speed bandwagon for a while for exactly this reason. The non road trip public charging infrastructure should be built around a combination of medium speed and battery boosted DCFC. The former can recharge 100-125 miles in a hour presuming 4.0 mile/kW efficiency while the latter can recharge at speeds up to 120 kW. Both would use AC inputs with minimal or no demand charges. So, it would be cheaper to install, and cheaper to operate.

ga2500ev

 

[ARob]

Agreed. Demand charges are deal killers for affordable fast-charging though. Maybe there is a sweet spot just below the demand charge threshold, maybe 30-40kW "urban" fast chargers could fill this niche affordably.

Exactly. Take a look at Freewire, their idea is to put a standard single or 3 phase 240V connected charger with onboard battery storage at AM/PM markets. The onboard storage enables operators to flatten the demand curve, yet still provide 120kW DCFC. No expensive grid connections, and depending on average use, they can drop the load for charging the onboard batteries pretty low and still deliver DCFC.

It is going to take a variety of solutions to meet the needs of drivers. Slower speed chargers may not be necessary if the operator can achieve 30-40kW grid loads and dispense at higher rates.

 

[ga2500ev]

It is going to take a variety of solutions to meet the needs of drivers. Slower speed chargers may not be necessary if the operator can achieve 30-40kW grid loads and dispense at higher rates.

I think a mix of both would be most effective. There are lots of times where folks need a top off charge and plan to spend 30-90 minutes somewhere. The slower speed DCFC would be most effective for that. Other times, folks will only be stopping for 15-20 minutes. In those cases the battery boosted DCFC would be perfect. So, having both types there, along with L2 also, would be the best way to cover all likely situations.

What we need is for groupings like this to be deployed everywhere. In every grocery store. Every gym. Every church. Every library. Every strip mall. To get the sea change we're looking for, they should ubiquitous.

Of course we need to change people's thinking on this too. Both ICE folks and most EV people who charge at home think in terms of filling up and base the charging time on that. EV folks often make that mistake when road trip charging, trying to get to 100% instead of just trying to get to the next station with a buffer. With this public charging model, it's more based on charging based on the time you're going to be parked, and that getting to full isn't always the goal.

ga2500ev

 

[wonderbolt]

No, no, no, no, no, noooooo!!!!

If there's a fault that shunts to ground you're pushing 7000 watts of power in to that copper pipe before the breaker trips. Do you not see a problem with potentially energizing your water supply?!?

I am not understanding the perceived issue using a waterpipe ground, as long as any items along the path to ground are properly jumped. I have seen many older residences wired this way with proper device jumpers at pressure regulators, hot water heaters, water meters, water softeners, etc...

You can use water pipes for grounding purposes, but... | EEP

Water pipes have been used extensively in the past as a grounding electrode. Water pipe connections are not testable and are unreliable due to the use of

electrical-engineering-portal.com

I was under the impression it was still acceptable per code.

 

[Village Idiot]

If you want to make it future proof I would run wiring for 60A and have option to use 48A supply for EV when they become more widespread in the future...

This is what I did early last year. You never know what the future will bring. I got an OpenEVSE 48A kit that I assembled. It comes with a NEMA 14-XX plug that will fit in a NEMA 14-60, 14-50, and 14-30. Easy to put together and you can set the max rate on it from 48A down to 6A.

Funny story, I was getting the rough drywall finished in my garage and I decided it would be a good time to run some 20A outlets. Then I thought I or the person buying this house someday might have an EV so I ran a 60A circuit and put a NEMA 14-60 outlet on it. I didn't have any plans to get an EV. Heck I wasn't driving anywhere anymore with all this required teleworking so I sent my car out to college in August with the kids. Plus I had my truck for the occasional need.

Fast forward to a couple of weeks ago. Changing jobs and an F-350 Crew Cab long bed is not very parking garage friendly. I needed a car and the 2020 Bolt EVs are at almost 50% off MSRP. Now I have a loaded 2020 Bolt LT.

My wife just laughs at my vehicles and has referred to them as Yin and Yang.

 

[2019EVLT]

I live in a 100 yr-old house, which still has a lot of knob & tube + newer romex wiring. My previous house had a newer breaker box in a newer addition, with a branch leading to an old fuse box to knob & tube wiring under the original part of the house. In the previous house, I tore out all the knob & tube and replaced it with romex. When I was done, my honest feeling was that the original knob & tube was probably safer than the romex, because the wires are all physically separated by 8-12 inches. My general philosophy with both houses is that if the existing rat's nest of wiring hasn't burned down in the past 100 years, then it's probably going to last another 20. But I must admit that a 20-30A load from an EVSE is probably the biggest load the house has seen. And I do use a new run to mine.

I think the main problem with a waterpipe ground would be that steel pipes rust and get replaced. I had steel pipes servicing my previous house from an underground meter out front. After I'd been there about 10 years, the 50-year-old supply pipes rusted through in the area where they ran under the dirt in the crawlspace under the house. I replaced the rusted section with PVC. So if there were electrical grounds attached to steel or copper pipes elsewhere in the house, my actions eliminated (or severely reduced) the path to ground. You never know what's going on behind the walls in a house, so you have to be careful and sometimes assume the worst.

I've always loved this scene re: home repairs. But I must admit I probably would turn him down...

 

[evnewbie]

Funny story, I was getting the rough drywall finished in my garage and I decided it would be a good time to run some 20A outlets. Then I thought I or the person buying this house someday might have an EV so I ran a 60A circuit and put a NEMA 14-60 outlet on it. I didn't have any plans to get an EV. Heck I wasn't driving anywhere anymore with all this required teleworking so I sent my car out to college in August with the kids. Plus I had my truck for the occasional need.

Fast forward to a couple of weeks ago. Changing jobs and an F-350 Crew Cab long bed is not very parking garage friendly. I needed a car and the 2020 Bolt EVs are at almost 50% off MSRP. Now I have a loaded 2020 Bolt LT.

My wife just laughs at my vehicles and has referred to them as Yin and Yang.

Lol. I have the same scenario. My truck isn't quite as big, but I used to have one that large, several, in fact. I ran a small landscaping operation for over 20 years. always driven big trucks and small cars. smallest was a toyota IQ

You've given me an idea for vanity license plates for my car and truck....LOL

 

[Village Idiot]

Lol. I have the same scenario. My truck isn't quite as big, but I used to have one that large, several, in fact. I ran a small landscaping operation for over 20 years. always driven big trucks and small cars. smallest was a toyota IQ

You've given me an idea for vanity license plates for my car and truck....LOL

Another big change for me is that this is my first automatic daily driver in almost 30 years. I miss my standard transmission.

 

[GJETSON]

Another big change for me is that this is my first automatic daily driver in almost 30 years. I miss my standard transmission.

Are you driving in D? Try L, it is like driving in first gear, up to 93 mph.

 

[MisterJJ]

I miss my standard transmission.

Really? I HATE normal automatic transmissions and had driven manuals for 25 years and then I bought a car with a DSG (automated manual) transmission. Loved the DSG with the near instantaneous shifts. Still slightly missed the manual every once in a while where precise control would have been better, but still felt the DSG was a huge improvement and the best for daily driving.

Having no transmission gears at all feels like another leap forward to me. Precise control. Zero shift delay. No uncertainty of when it will shift. No longer have to even think about what gear I'm in. I suppose I could say that I slightly miss some of the fun that can be had with a manual, but that no longer has the appeal it once did. I would probably feel differently about it a few decades ago.

 

[Village Idiot]

Are you driving in D? Try L, it is like driving in first gear, up to 93 mph.

I have been using D on the highway and L around town and in traffic. It's nothing like a nice rev-matched downshift.

Really? I HATE normal automatic transmissions and had driven manuals for 25 years and then I bought a car with a DSG (automated manual) transmission. Loved the DSG with the near instantaneous shifts. Still slightly missed the manual every once in a while where precise control would have been better, but still felt the DSG was a huge improvement and the best for daily driving.

Having no transmission gears at all feels like another leap forward to me. Precise control. Zero shift delay. No uncertainty of when it will shift. No longer have to even think about what gear I'm in. I suppose I could say that I slightly miss some of the fun that can be had with a manual, but that no longer has the appeal it once did. I would probably feel differently about it a few decades ago.

I feel like I had so much more control with a standard. Better in the snow or if you happened to get stuck. Try to rock an automatic back and forth like you can in a manual. And I know that I am odd in that I don't mind driving a standard in traffic. I have been commuting the the D.C. metro area for over 20 years. I still take my high school kids' manual Saturn Ion on occasion for old time's sake.

 

[GJETSON]

that I don't mind driving a standard in traffic.

Prior to our Bolt, I drove nothing but stick since the early 1960's. I don't miss the noise, plugs, oil changes, etc. Good riddance to bad rubbish!

 

[Rgc6716]

ive posted a few questions about charging the last couple of weeks. Well, here i go again. I have decided that I do NOT want to install a 40A circuit. I just don't think it would benefit me. Right now I am using the stock evse on a 240v 30 amp circuit originally wired for a hot water heater. Ive done the adapter thing, etc and I am getting around 11 miles per hour of charge with the portable cord limit set to 12 amps. Works for me right now. However, I still want to purchase a 240v Evse and keep the portable one in the car. Looking for a specific type. want one with adjustable voltage since I can only reasonably use it at 24 amps. That should bump up my charge rate to around 18 miles per hour of charge time. there are two "problems" to this for me. One: I don't want to spend the money on the 24 amp evse and not be able to use it when I eventually get the whole house rewired and put in a 50A line... two: the current 30 amp line is only the two "hot" wires. there is no neutral so I would have to use the existing wiring setup or stick with what I have. Ive heard Juicebox is a good one, but what are the amperage levels available and will I need the neutral to wire it at 24 amp? Sorry if I sound "not so smart" with electrical..

If your not using the outlet for anything else you could change out your breaker to 50 amps and your outlet to a NEMA 1455. This you can do yourself. Just turn off the main first. Add a non smart charger from Grizzl-e is $400 and your done. The whole thing takes about three hours. An electrician will cost $400 and will cost the same no matter when you do it. You can mount the charger and plug it in yourself.

 

[freelosophy]

dude been reading your posts and feel for you. If you have a two hot wires with a 30 am circuit then you almost got what I got. I did have a neutral and a ground in the junction box so I just built an extension cord from the outlet to the EV charger. The EV charger is a JuiceBox it has the ability to control the amount of input current it uses via a phone app. I have it set to 29 amps on my 30 amp circuit. I believe the JuiceBox can operate at up to 40 or 50 amps don't recall so you can later adjust it for more current. The Bolt is limited to 32 max so I concluded not worth spending the money now for a dedicated circuit when I can build a legal extension for 100 bucks and be done with it. BTW to make yours to code you'd need to run a third wire back of the same gauge wire (10 gauge) to the distribution box and connect it to ground. However, a 10 foot rod in the ground could provide a dedicated ground and solves the problem but that has the potential from ground loops and it's not to code. good luck!

 

[jpl572103]

ive posted a few questions about charging the last couple of weeks. Well, here i go again. I have decided that I do NOT want to install a 40A circuit. I just don't think it would benefit me. Right now I am using the stock evse on a 240v 30 amp circuit originally wired for a hot water heater. Ive done the adapter thing, etc and I am getting around 11 miles per hour of charge with the portable cord limit set to 12 amps. Works for me right now. However, I still want to purchase a 240v Evse and keep the portable one in the car. Looking for a specific type. want one with adjustable voltage since I can only reasonably use it at 24 amps. That should bump up my charge rate to around 18 miles per hour of charge time. there are two "problems" to this for me. One: I don't want to spend the money on the 24 amp evse and not be able to use it when I eventually get the whole house rewired and put in a 50A line... two: the current 30 amp line is only the two "hot" wires. there is no neutral so I would have to use the existing wiring setup or stick with what I have. Ive heard Juicebox is a good one, but what are the amperage levels available and will I need the neutral to wire it at 24 amp? Sorry if I sound "not so smart" with electrical..

I purchased the Siemens charger from Home Depot. It’s refurbished and has 3 year warranty. And it’s 240v and adjustable.

 

[boltco]

The EV charger is a JuiceBox it has the ability to control the amount of input current it uses via a phone app. I have it set to 29 amps on my 30 amp circuit.

I hope you mean 24 amps? Continuous loads need to be a maximum of 80% of the circuit rating. Be safe out there...

 

[freelosophy]

lol really, you must have read the NEC. that's for new circuit designs to pass code. Once the circuit is in you can use it until the circuit breaker pops and then back up a little so the breaker doesn't keep poping. lol. no safety issue bro.

 

[EV Engineering]

lol really, you must have read the NEC. that's for new circuit designs to pass code. Once the circuit is in you can use it until the circuit breaker pops and then back up a little so the breaker doesn't keep poping. lol. no safety issue bro.

Tripping breaker so many times has very negative impact on life. Once it develops hot spots from sparking under load you will have hard time figuring out what is making your EVSE Tripping. But I guess we are all different from what is right.
Nothing personal.
But I would never exceed 80% under continuous load (we all have to understand that charging EV is for many hours at the time)

 

[freelosophy]

the tripping breaker was a joke, 80% are design specs when you are wiring. e.g. If any fix appliance draws more than 50% of the circuit it must then be a dedicated circuit to that appliance. If the dedicated appliance uses 208/240 it must be dedicate to the fix appliance. If dish washer uses 5 amps at 120v it can be wired to outlets in the kitchen and not be dedicated. But if any outlet in the kitchen is near a water source it must have a GFI protected. And on and on and on. My point is just that, 80% is for new circuit designs. A 30 amp circuit (by code) must use 10 gauge wire and terminate on a 30 amp breaker. The circuit breaker is design to protect the circuit inclusive of the wiring not humans (GFIs are to protect humans). Yeah, if you use a circuit breaker as an expensive switch it won't last as long as a cheap switch. Not meant to be a switch is meant to be a protective device for the circuit. As for current capacity of a 30 amp circuit, that usually more like 33 amps before the breaker trips not always but most often. And the 10 gauge wire can sustain a greater current than that, but I don't recall exactly. Also, I don't think most users know how many amps any of their circuits are using at any given time. The rationale to use to 80% is not based on facts but a feeling of safety. IF you feel going 80% of the speed limit that's cool and that's safer. I suspect that there's a degree of additional safety built into not exceeding 80%, but yeah, I call that same as being concern about the wifi radiation affecting my health. It's cool you do 80% I do 5 miles over the speed limit. lol