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Discussion Starter · #321 ·
Since most everyone here is having a rhubarb, I'll join in -


Let me refer to the title: "Is this the end of GM?"
I'll clarify for the umpteenth time. By "end of GM", I mean the end of GM as a major automaker.
 

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Discussion Starter · #322 ·
It doesn't say they've come to an agreement. It just says that GM expects to be reimbursed and they're in negotiations.
Even if GM is mostly reimbursed for the recall, the question is whether GM will have access to LG batteries and LG technology related to Ultium. If not, I believe there is a very good chance that GM will not survive this decade as a major automaker.
 

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Even if GM is mostly reimbursed for the recall, the question is whether GM will have access to LG batteries and LG technology related to Ultium. If not, I believe there is a very good chance that GM will not survive this decade as a major automaker.
All this talk about which auto makers survive this decade makes me laugh. As I have said many times. climate change is accelerating, and looking to the past to predict the future is foolish.
 

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Even if GM is mostly reimbursed for the recall, the question is whether GM will have access to LG batteries and LG technology related to Ultium. If not, I believe there is a very good chance that GM will not survive this decade as a major automaker.
But right now - manufacturers make their own engines, right (??), so aren’t they all gonna end up making their own battery packs?
 

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Discussion Starter · #325 · (Edited)
But right now - manufacturers make their own engines, right (??), so aren’t they all gonna end up making their own battery packs?
I think that's a really insightful question. And it would make sense.

But it's really, really hard to make batteries. Only a handful of companies know how to scale production of batteries for EVs. Right now, Tesla is the only automaker who is even attempting to do it themselves, and their batteries still aren't ready yet. Every other automaker is contracting with a third party and none besides Tesla has a credible plan to make batteries on their own.

GM will probably never make its own batteries, which is one of the reasons they are in trouble.
 

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No, it's not the end of GM, or even close. The writedown for the Bolt recall costs is just a minor inconvenience wallet-wise.

It IS very well the end of the Bolt, though. At least with the "Bolt" nameplate. The Bolt name is now forever linked with being a firebomb. I'm sure GM will come out with something similar to the Bolt's form factor with the Ultium platform, but sure as **** won't be called "Bolt", even if it is the direct successor.
 

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Discussion Starter · #328 ·
No, it's not the end of GM, or even close. The writedown for the Bolt recall costs is just a minor inconvenience wallet-wise.

It IS very well the end of the Bolt, though. At least with the "Bolt" nameplate. The Bolt name is now forever linked with being a firebomb. I'm sure GM will come out with something similar to the Bolt's form factor with the Ultium platform, but sure as **** won't be called "Bolt", even if it is the direct successor.
If this puts GM several years behind for the Ultium program, I think it is indeed the end of GM as a major automaker. But we've covered that earlier.

What is new is your assertion that this is the end of the Bolt. I give that one a 50/50 chance. If GM and LG can assure everyone that really, true, for real this time, we've fixed the problem, then GM can continue with the Bolt because they have to. I'll start a new thread about it and explain why I think that.
 

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....then GM can continue with the Bolt because they have to. I'll start a new thread about it and explain why I think that.
Then this is the end of the "is this the end" thread? !!! (y)
 

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I've already laid out for you several times in numbers why you're wrong. At best this is would be a one of a series of events that would take down GM and can't take it down on its own.
You are missing the broad outline of the argument: that the future is electric, and between the toxic PR the Bolt provides and GM's hitching of its wagon to LG, GM does not have an electric future.

This has nothing to do with GM's ability to pay for a recall, and everything to do with GM's ability to transition to an EV company.

My own opinion is pretty flimsy, but I suppose it comes down to not believing that SKI can be the difference between success and failure for legacy automakers as a general remark on the industry; and specific to GM, it has a relatively ardent fan base and a very strong political lobby. It has weathered crazy toxic PR before (although don't ask me how.)
 

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But right now - manufacturers make their own engines, right (??), so aren’t they all gonna end up making their own battery packs?
If the current trend continues China will have a 14 to 1 ratio of heavy line battery factories. Endless EV production at that point. Cheaply built the way AMERICA likes to buy. Harbor freight , Walmart , Amazon. PLEASE US AUTOMAKERS DO SOMETHING. FAST.
 

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I don't see how that helps build Ultium cars in the next 5 years. They would have to throw away years of work and start over with a new design and new manufacturing process.
That is looking like a given.
The bottom line is that if GM and LG can't get their act together, GM is in danger.
Agreed.


Yeah, then we can start buying the cheaper foreign oil
Hmm... maybe it requires some thought beyond slogans, eh?
Excellent advice you should take. Google 'fungible commodity'
 

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between the toxic PR the Bolt provides and GM's hitching of its wagon to LG
Hard to get a good perspective as a Bolt owner.

IMHO;
The average GM buyer is either;
A. Never heard of a Bolt and might be vaguely aware of LG making batteries, but dayum, I want me a Hummer.
B. I heard that Bolts catch on fire. But these other GM cars have some fancy Ultiumatium batteries that must be better.
C. Don't really care as long as my shiny new SUV looks better than the neighbors.
 

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People worry about weird things.
If the current trend continues China will have a 14 to 1 ratio of heavy line battery factories. Endless EV production at that point. Cheaply built the way AMERICA likes to buy. Harbor freight , Walmart , Amazon. PLEASE US AUTOMAKERS DO SOMETHING. FAST.
It's the Americans buy habits that would have to change.
 

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Discussion Starter · #336 ·
People worry about weird things.

It's the Americans buy habits that would have to change.
Not sure what you are referring to here, but Americans will definitely buy an EV if the sticker price is cheaper. That's going to happen soon enough anyway, but if the tax credit passes then EVs will be far, far cheaper than ICE.

Plus the latest version of the tax credit even provides incentives for buying used EVs.

ICE cars will depreciate so fast that they are almost worthless as everyone realizes total cost of ownership is much higher for ICE. Why would anyone pay more for an inferior ICE car that you will eventually sell at a huge loss? It will be a race to the bottom for ICE.

At that point the winners are those who can produce EVs at scale. The rest go out of business, and it's looking like GM could be one of those, probably going the way of Chrysler.
 

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Not sure what you are referring to here, but Americans will definitely buy an EV if the sticker price is cheaper. That's going to happen soon enough anyway, but if the tax credit passes then EVs will be far, far cheaper than ICE.

Plus the latest version of the tax credit even provides incentives for buying used EVs.

ICE cars will depreciate so fast that they are almost worthless as everyone realizes total cost of ownership is much higher for ICE. Why would anyone pay more for an inferior ICE car that you will eventually sell at a huge loss? It will be a race to the bottom for ICE.

At that point the winners are those who can produce EVs at scale. The rest go out of business, and it's looking like GM could be one of those, probably going the way of Chrysler.
"Cheaply built the way AMERICA likes to buy."

Exactly this.
 

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I Doubt It. Currently the VAST majority of revenue for GM is truck and SUV sales. Even IF there was an accelerated adoption of the EV in coming years, Americans have short memories. VW is still around after they knowingly screwed over their customers. I have not seen anything to suggest GM has done anything nearly as corrupt with the Bolt. That being said, the handling of this recall has soured our view of GM and the last product we buy from them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #339 ·
I Doubt It. Currently the VAST majority of revenue for GM is truck and SUV sales. Even IF there was an accelerated adoption of the EV in coming years, Americans have short memories. VW is still around after they knowingly screwed over their customers. I have not seen anything to suggest GM has done anything nearly as corrupt with the Bolt. That being said, the handling of this recall has soured our view of GM and the last product we buy from them.
It's not the bad publicity that is the issue. The problem is that if the GM/LG relationship is souring and technical issues are causing Ultium to fall a few years behind then GM won't be able to compete.

If the bottom falls out of the ICE market and GM can't scale EV production then they are in serious trouble.
 

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..., Americans have short memories. VW is still around after they knowingly screwed over their customers. ...
I thought it was 'VW cheated EPA testing and requirements'.
Their customers were driving slightly more efficient, but slightly dirtier, diesels.
The customers didn't know a thing!
And weren't they eventually happy with the buyback program?

I know I am much happier driving an EV now that VW was fined, which brought about Electrify America!
 
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