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Level 3 charging as DCFC, the takeover

2509 Views 40 Replies 19 Participants Last post by  NortonCommando
@cwerdna sorry for your loss.


That would be ars, saying:

. But they're useful if you need to drive farther than your battery's range or if you don't have the ability to charge at home, as a level 3 charge鈥攎ore commonly called a DC fast charge鈥攚ill rarely take even an hour.
An authoritative source not even mentioning that level 3 is wrong or why. I been trying to tell you all it's a lost battle, not that I ever disagreed with you.
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@cwerdna sorry for your loss.


That would be ars, saying:



An authoritative source not even mentioning that level 3 is wrong or why. I been trying to tell you all it's a lost battle, not that I ever disagreed with you.
What is the lost battle you're talking about? I'm not sure what you mean. Thanks
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What is the lost battle you're talking about? I'm not sure what you mean. Thanks
@cwerdna is this forum's resident grammar nazi on kW vs kWh, and Level 3 vs DCFC term misuse.

The L3/DCFC debate arises from a Weber St. Automotive video from Prof. Kelley which described AC Level 1 and 2, and DC Level 1 and 2, and "proved" that there was in fact no Level 3 charging mentioned in the official specs issued by SAE/ISO.
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Found this rare footage of @cwerdna explaining about user education on the forum and charging.
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@cwerdna is this forum's resident grammar nazi on kW vs kWh, and Level 3 vs DCFC term misuse.

The L3/DCFC debate arises from a Weber St. Automotive video from Prof. Kelley which described AC Level 1 and 2, and DC Level 1 and 2, and "proved" that there was in fact no Level 3 charging mentioned in the official specs issued by SAE/ISO.
I agree completely with @cwerdna:

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The thing is, and I said it in my OP and will repeat it, there's an important point of confusion now, and the nay sayers on "L3" are right in the end.

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So what are we going to do when AC Level 3 is a thing for light duty trucks, for instance?
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Well we all know that many words and terms change meaning over time generally from misuse so that eventually it then becomes the accepted term. I think we are seeing that in this case.,
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Can we call the AC Level 3 "ACFC" to make up for calling DCFC "Level 3"?
So what are we going to do when AC Level 3 is a thing for light duty trucks, for instance?
AC L3 might become a thing in Europe, but not so much in North America. Why? 3-phase power is next to impossible to get in residential areas. That's simply a fact of the North American power grid. There could certainly be some public charging stations that could offer such power, but then there's no EVs capable of using such power. Another chicken/egg scenario. There's hardly any that can use 19.2 kW AC charging, although I imagine more will be coming.

But again, a home charging station that supports 100 amps is going to be a) massively expensive (look what 40 and 48 amp EVSEs cost now) and b) few "typical" homes will have the panel capacity for a dedicated 100 amp circuit, which adds additional expense. I don't know how high the current capacity of the home feed can be and still get residential service rates. I also don't know in what increments the home drop can be increased. Can it be bumped in 50 amp increments? 100 amp? Not something I could find in my utility's tariffs, although there are so many of them I might not have found the correct one.
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The thing is, and I said it in my OP and will repeat it, there's an important point of confusion now, and the nay sayers on "L3" are right in the end.

View attachment 45167

So what are we going to do when AC Level 3 is a thing for light duty trucks, for instance?
Level 3 would require a huge onboard charger for the AC to DC conversion. I mean the Lyriq's 19.2 kW charger is so large there's no space left for a frunk. I can't imagine L3 could be overall, more economical than DC Level 2 for a fleet operator.
If you named a weak version of something "level 1" and then a medium strength version "level 2", it doesn't matter what you try to call the strongest version because people will just wind up calling it "level 3". Details be damned.
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"In the parlance of our times."

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I propose "Level 2+" for AC Level 3.

I agree with @cwerdna that precision in technical terms is valuable, and generally speaking, I've tried to reference the correct term even if it's not commonly used. I'll say "Driver Information Center (DIC or dashboard)" even though most people would just say, "dashboard." I'll say "EVSE (or charger)" even though most people would just say, "charger."

The reason I try to do that is because the correct terms are used in things like owners manuals and online documents, so if people are trying to search for information, they need to know what the correct term is. Searching the 2020 Bolt owners manual for "dashboard" returns exactly 0 matches, while "Driver Information Center" appears 22 times.

The only time I won't search for the correct term is when I'm looking for things that are user created, like a Google image search. There, I'll search for "dashboard" or "charger" because that's how many people will name their images.
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I don't know how high the current capacity of the home feed can be and still get residential service rates. I also don't know in what increments the home drop can be increased. Can it be bumped in 50 amp increments? 100 amp? Not something I could find in my utility's tariffs, although there are so many of them I might not have found the correct one.
I just had my home service upgraded from 100a(1978 house) to 200a. Electrician said I could go to 300a instead if I wanted. Power company showed up while he was there to change the drop from the main line to 200a, No charge, and apparently would have done 300a if asked, also for no charge.

Level 3 would require a huge onboard charger for the AC to DC conversion. I mean the Lyriq's 19.2 kW charger is so large there's no space left for a frunk. I can't imagine L3 could be overall, more economical than DC Level 2 for a fleet operator.
I would think that if we could get 3-phase to our homes, there would be a market for an AC to DC EVSE, therein making it useful to all vehicle that are DCFC capable, old or new. the 25kW versions I see at dealerships, and our local power company look much smaller and less complicated than the bigger ones at EA, et al.(but too big for inside the vehicle). If they were sold in higher volume I wonder what the price would be for 25 or 50 kW units. Having a 100+ kW unit at home seems both overkill and overpriced.
For all those calling out the ludicrousness of level 3 AC in nearly all applications, there's a reason I specified light duty trucks. I can easily envision the F250/2500/etc's and highers of the world making use of this kind of pipeline. It may be cheaper for a lot businesses running 200kWh+ batteries to be running this kind of setup like say tow trucks or utility trucks or hows about any multitude of fire trucks?

I'm not saying we're going to see much of level 3 AC charging in peoples homes, it's going to be potentially huge in small businesses though. I also think we'll be surprised, a lot of contractors take there trucks home, right? How else are you going to charge 200+ kWh overnight? There's a point where 19.2kW isn't enough and it starts at just above the trucks we're seeing now and scales all the way to semi.
For all those calling out the ludicrousness of level 3 AC in nearly all applications, there's a reason I specified light duty trucks. I can easily envision the F250/2500/etc's and highers of the world making use of this kind of pipeline. It may be cheaper for a lot businesses running 200kWh+ batteries to be running this kind of setup like say tow trucks or utility trucks or hows about any multitude of fire trucks?

I'm not saying we're going to see much of level 3 AC charging in peoples homes, it's going to be potentially huge in small businesses though. I also think we'll be surprised, a lot of contractors take there trucks home, right? How else are you going to charge 200+ kWh overnight? There's a point where 19.2kW isn't enough and it starts at just above the trucks we're seeing now and scales all the way to semi.
I hope you can see that my post is agreeing with you. It's not ludicrous at all. In my situation, even in an older home, I could have a 300a service, a 200a subpanel and get a theoretical 28.8kW charging rate without even having access to 3-phase.
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I'm not saying we're going to see much of level 3 AC charging in peoples homes, it's going to be potentially huge in small businesses though.
In complete agreement there. Even if I could support more than a 200 amp service at my home (all utilities underground, so no idea if my feed could be bumped), I could never envision the need. For 90+% of my EV travel, 32 or even 16 amps is more than enough to top me off each day. For the upcoming trucks or other vehicles with 150+ kWh batteries, I can't see myself ever getting something with that large of a battery. I'm hoping for a 400 mile battery that isn't more than 90-100 kWh. That's about the range I need to make the wife comfortable with a long term EV. I can't afford any of the current EVs that have that much range.
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FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT.

Why does this issue cause Level 2 degrangment syndrome? L2DS.
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@cwerdna is this forum's resident grammar nazi on kW vs kWh, and Level 3 vs DCFC term misuse.

The L3/DCFC debate arises from a Weber St. Automotive video from Prof. Kelley which described AC Level 1 and 2, and DC Level 1 and 2, and "proved" that there was in fact no Level 3 charging mentioned in the official specs issued by SAE/ISO.
Yes on kW vs. kWh. I don't care about capitalization of it much. As long as the right letters are there, there aren't missing or extra characters (e.g. an errant /).

I don't harp on/correct the "level 3" terminology misuse nearly as much. That, I tend to just let go. I will sometimes step in and mention I prefer to call it DC charging, sometimes fast because some of it isn't very fast (e.g. "24" or "25" kW) DC chargers.

The no such thing as level 3 charging thing has come up well before that Weber video in 2019.

We perhaps should adopt the term "intermediate chargers" for not very fast DC chargers. In Japan, supposedly most <40 kW DC charging are those: 24KW DC Charging.
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We perhaps should adopt the term "intermediate chargers" for not very fast DC chargers. In Japan, supposedly most <40 kW DC charging are those: 24KW DC Charging.
I've been calling it medium speed DCFC.

ga2500ev
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