[madmike]

Does anyone have any insight into how level three stations are maintained and how often they typically break down? Yesterday I drove down I-81 from the DC area to Roanoke and one of the chargers that Plug share information suggested would work didn't, another one said don't even try charging here (un plugshare) and the third worked just fine (Thank you Staunton!). They seem remain in that state (not working well) for a long time.

Is it user error, are stations hard to keep running, Is it all the crazy weather in the region? Can companies at least accurately report on their website if stations are down (I called electrify America before I left and they said one of the six stations was working A-OK? Does Tesla have this problem with the superchargers?

Its bad enough to be worried about a station being iced...it is just no fun to find out with a few miles left of range that you can't charge.

MadMike (

 

[GJETSON]

Its bad enough to be worried about a station being iced...it is just no fun to find out with a few miles left of range that you can't charge.

Welcome to the anarchy of the marketplace. Given that we have 10- 20 years to get off fossil fuels for transportation, you'd think we would find a more rational way of organizing the transition. Most Americans think the market is the best way to sort stuff out. I might live long enough to find out if they are right.

 

[daveo4Bolt]

if you want reliable L3 charging the only game in town right now is Tesla Supercharger Network. Since the other L3 chargers are a patchwork of various charging networks, billing methods, speeds, capacity and other factors it's pretty much a s**t show if you want to use L3 charging with any other car. No one knowns how long it will take to get better, but given that EV's still are less than 1% of new car sales and will be for quite awhile there is little if any incentive for this to change anytime soon - also there is virtually _NO_ money to be made in L3 charging as if you price it to cover costs it's quite expensive (more than gasoline per-mile) - the break even point is about $0.38/kWh - at that point in time electricity is about the same price per-mile as 28 mpg/$4.00 gallon gasoline....

traveling with a non-Tesla EV takes quite a bit more planning given the lack of reliable L3 charging networks.

 

[ZoomZoom]

if you want reliable L3 charging the only game in town right now is Tesla Supercharger Network. Since the other L3 chargers are a patchwork of various charging networks, billing methods, speeds, capacity and other factors it's pretty much a s**t show if you want to use L3 charging with any other car. No one knowns how long it will take to get better, but given that EV's still are less than 1% of new car sales and will be for quite awhile there is little if any incentive for this to change anytime soon - also there is virtually _NO_ money to be made in L3 charging as if you price it to cover costs it's quite expensive (more than gasoline per-mile) - the break even point is about $0.38/kWh - at that point in time electricity is about the same price per-mile as 28 mpg/$4.00 gallon gasoline....

traveling with a non-Tesla EV takes quite a bit more planning given the lack of reliable L3 charging networks.

I sadly don't see that changing in the midwest for awhile. The states that embrace EV will be far ahead. I'm going to 'Hobble' along in my Bolt when it arrives. I didn't even bother with the DC option, saved the $750 (+tax) as I will only need L2 charging at home at best.

 

[Vertiformed]

if you want reliable L3 charging the only game in town right now is Tesla Supercharger Network.

Not if you own a Bolt. For Bolt owners, Tesla Superchargers are 100% unreliable, never ever working to charge a Bolt.

 

[NewsCoulomb]

Does anyone have any insight into how level three stations are maintained and how often they typically break down? Yesterday I drove down I-81 from the DC area to Roanoke and one of the chargers that Plug share information suggested would work didn't, another one said don't even try charging here (un plugshare) and the third worked just fine (Thank you Staunton!). They seem remain in that state (not working well) for a long time.

Is it user error, are stations hard to keep running, Is it all the crazy weather in the region? Can companies at least accurately report on their website if stations are down (I called electrify America before I left and they said one of the six stations was working A-OK?

A number of factors are at play. We really only have two "networks" operating at a national level: Electrify America and EVgo. By "network" I mean that they own both the chargers and the billing network, so it is in their best interest as a business to upkeep and maintain their chargers. EVgo has been good about updating their sites and listening to users. With Electrify America, it remains to be seen; however, with Audi (and possibly other German automakers) advertising Electrify America "plans" with the purchase of their vehicles, I can see their sites being very well maintained.

ChargePoint and GreenLots own their billing network, but they might or might not own the physical chargers. They do, however, sell technical support plans, so it is on the businesses and individuals who actually own the station hardware to ensure that it is fixed and running. If they don't pay for the support plans, stations can be unreliable or remain broken for long periods of time.

To exacerbate the situation, many of the charging providers are now attempting to assert themselves in the mapping and route planning businesses, and ChargePoint is no longer updating their stations on PlugShare. Right now, PlugShare is still the go-to resource for charging locations, but it is updated and maintained mostly by the community... So it is imperative that EV owners update site information.

Does Tesla have this problem with the superchargers?

Tesla does still have issues with their Superchargers; however, they benefit from a few unique qualities:

• More redundancy than we currently see from the current public charging providers, making individual failures less of an issue
• Fast response times because their technical support crews are already well dispersed
• Single, proprietary connector, which means they don't need to worry about outside hardware, standards (e.g., CCS versus CHAdeMO), vehicles, etc.

My prediction is that Electrify America's experience and reliability will be similar to the Supercharger Network by about this time next year.

 

[Vertiformed]

Does anyone have any insight into how level three stations are maintained and how often they typically break down? Yesterday I drove down I-81 from the DC area to Roanoke and one of the chargers that Plug share information suggested would work didn't, another one said don't even try charging here (un plugshare) and the third worked just fine (Thank you Staunton!). They seem remain in that state (not working well) for a long time.

Is it user error, are stations hard to keep running, Is it all the crazy weather in the region? Can companies at least accurately report on their website if stations are down (I called electrify America before I left and they said one of the six stations was working A-OK? Does Tesla have this problem with the superchargers?

Its bad enough to be worried about a station being iced...it is just no fun to find out with a few miles left of range that you can't charge.

(Can you more specifically name and blame the locations that weren't operational?)

You've correctly identified the major problems with using the US CCS network right now. It's a patchwork of networks, low-power “fast” chargers, single-stall locations, and maintenance issues. People are always lauding PlugShare but it doesn't reveal the amperage of the chargers, nor is it always accurate whether they are operational.

The economics of the fast charging industry is pretty terrible right now. Fast chargers are very expensive, and date quickly — 100 amp chargers may have seemed great when they were put in, but seem annoyingly slow now, and their 65 amp (“25 kW”) predecessors seem like a bad joke, existing only to catch out the unwary; today's 150 amp chargers are good for Bolts, but not great for newly arriving vehicles that want to charge at 70 kW. On top of that, the amount of money the chargers make is negligible, perhaps $50 per day gross at best, before subtracting costs, overheads, depreciation, etc. Many will make far less.

Today charging companies do not make money. EVgo and Electrify America were both funded out of settlements for bad corporate behavior; in some sense their job is to spend money, not make money. They are likely to spend money on things that look good (opening new stations) rather than are largely invisible (maintaining existing ones).

In essence the ability to keep stations well maintained comes down to a mix of pride and a company's ability to execute well on mundane but important matters like network availability and monitoring. Unfortunately, it feels like there is a fair amount half-heartedness when it comes to these things right now.

 

[ZoomZoom]

The economics of the fast charging industry is pretty terrible right now.

Do you think that part of the game is securing fast charge locations? I wonder if there is some investment potential for these loss leaders to get a footprint established. Thoughts?
I have no insight nor knowledge in this aspect, but are these companies just basically securing locations more than anything else hoping that it pays off? I don't see how it will really be much of an ROI, but I am no expert.

 

[GJETSON]

My prediction is that Electrify America's experience and reliability will be similar to the Supercharger Network by about this time next year.

There are 112 Tesla DC fast chargers across 12 locations in Virginia alone. Electrify America has 9 DC fast chargers across 2 locations in Virginia, with no more planned. How is that remotely comparable?

 

[NewsCoulomb]

There are 112 Tesla DC fast chargers across 12 locations in Virginia alone. Electrify America has 9 DC fast chargers across 2 locations in Virginia, with no more planned. How is that remotely comparable?

Hmm... where is Virginia again?

 

[GJETSON]

Hmm... where is Virginia again?

Instead of cropping the map, why not give the page link?

https://www.electrifyamerica.com/locations

If you look at the right side of the page, you will see there are two locations in Virginia right now. One at the headquarters in Reston, and one near the interstate in Fincastle. If you look at "coming soon", there are no more DC fast chargers planned for Virginia. All those little lightning bolts are 240 volt trickle chargers..big f'ing deal.

 

[SparkE]

My prediction is that Electrify America's experience and reliability will be similar to the Supercharger Network by about this time next year.

There are 112 Tesla DC fast chargers across 12 locations in Virginia alone. Electrify America has 9 DC fast chargers across 2 locations in Virginia, with no more planned. How is that remotely comparable?

I guess it depends on what "experience" means. To be devil's advocate, he didn't talk about location density.

However I doubt that EA will be able to duplicate the "grab fast charge cable/plug, stick it in car, do nothing else until you want to leave, unplug and leave" of the SC network (I am emphasizing the "no network card, no CC B.S., just plug and go" of the SC network).

I am positive that EA will have nowhere near the number of sites nor the number of plugs as the SC network at any time in 2019 (or 2020). However, they really don't have to - EA won't be providing free charging, so the demand will be less (only people needing the charge will be paying the high prices for it). Also, the network won't have to support 500,000 long distance EVs (or 1,000,000 in 2020) - only a small fraction of that.

Color me surprised if EA even manages to have a "every 100 miles east-to-west across the US using 3 different routes (north, middle, south)" network by the beginning Oct 2019 - Tesla currently has between 5 and 8 (depending on how you count, because they cross one another at various points). (The SC network has 'about' 1100 stations with over 8000 plugs at the moment.) But let's check back in Oct 2019, eh?

 

[SparkE]

Tesla SC map

Here's the 2018 SC map (supposedly) ...

Edit: the 'grey' teardrops were supposed to be added in 2018 ('coming soon') - the read ones were live in 2017.

 

[NewsCoulomb]

Instead of cropping the map, why not give the page link?

https://www.electrifyamerica.com/locations

If you look at the right side of the page, you will see there are two locations in Virginia right now. One at the headquarters in Reston, and one near the interstate in Fincastle. If you look at "coming soon", there are no more DC fast chargers planned for Virginia. All those little lightning bolts are 240 volt trickle chargers..big f'ing deal.

Okay, here's a breakdown of the page:

• The blue tags are currently open.
• The large grey tags are under construction.
• The small tags "little lightning bolts" are planned sites (not "240 volt trickle chargers").

According to this map, Electrify America has plans for six sites to be open in Virginia by June of 2019 (not to mention the dozen or so in the immediate area:

 

[NewsCoulomb]

I guess it depends on what "experience" means. To be devil's advocate, he didn't talk about location density.

However I doubt that EA will be able to duplicate the "grab fast charge cable/plug, stick it in car, do nothing else until you want to leave, unplug and leave" of the SC network (I am emphasizing the "no network card, no CC B.S., just plug and go" of the SC network).

I am positive that EA will have nowhere near the number of sites nor the number of plugs as the SC network at any time in 2019 (or 2020). However, they really don't have to - EA won't be providing free charging, so the demand will be less (only people needing the charge will be paying the high prices for it). Also, the network won't have to support 500,000 long distance EVs (or 1,000,000 in 2020) - only a small fraction of that.

Color me surprised if EA even manages to have a "every 100 miles east-to-west across the US using 3 different routes (north, middle, south)" network by the beginning Oct 2019 - Tesla currently has between 5 and 8 (depending on how you count, because they cross one another at various points). (The SC network has 'about' 1100 stations with over 8000 plugs at the moment.) But let's check back in Oct 2019, eh?

The topics of this conversation are availability and reliability; it's not a pissing contest.

My statement was that Electrify America's network would be established enough by this time next year that it would have resiliency if some chargers went down and enough dispersed support to bring broken chargers back online quickly. That's why I said "experience and reliability."

 

[Vertiformed]

There are 112 Tesla DC fast chargers across 12 locations in Virginia alone. Electrify America has 9 DC fast chargers across 2 locations in Virginia, with no more planned. How is that remotely comparable?

I'm not sure where you are looking, but I see 13 EA locations planned for Virginia by 2019.

 

[Vertiformed]

If you look at the right side of the page, you will see there are two locations in Virginia right now. One at the headquarters in Reston, and one near the interstate in Fincastle. If you look at "coming soon", there are no more DC fast chargers planned for Virginia. All those little lightning bolts are 240 volt trickle chargers..big f'ing deal.

You misunderstand the map. The gray ones are the ones where they have not announced (and sometimes don't even yet know) the exact location of the charger. They know it'll be within ten miles of the gray lightning bolt.

 

[GJETSON]

Here is a neat interactive map.

https://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/e...nnectors=TESLA&ev_levels=dc_fast&location=USA

OMG!...North Dakota.

 

[Vertiformed]

For chargers in Virginia, here are EAs plans for the general area. The Washington DC area is a bit hard to see, but there are four EA chargers planned for the Virginia side.

 

[Vertiformed]

Here is a neat interactive map.

Looks like if you're in Canada, you're better off with CCS. Hard to tell of course, since the DoE site doesn't list power ratings of the chargers. Lots of the DCFC chargers might be slow. But perhaps slow is still better than none.