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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Let me start by saying the car is great. And yes, Chevy (in collaboration with LG Chem) did design and manufacture the car, and that is great. Thanks to the bolt, I don't think I'll own another ICE again in the future; but unfortunately I don't see myself going with Chevy again.

Companies like Nissan, Harley Davidson, Audi, and BMW have installed EV chargers at most of their dealerships and have allowed owners and sometimes the general public to charge. Those companies have also partnered with third party EV DC providers to provide actual charging.

Chevy has yet to offer DC charging at dealerships, or anywhere else. In fact, the extent of Chevy's partnerships, so far, is with EA to 'collect data.' ( sorry, but my car runs on electricity not Information )

Another soft spot is the Tech. It seems that when GM couldn't figure out Keypass on Android, they just deleted it. What.. Really?
And don't get me started on Energy Assist. I've NEVER been able to get it to display correctly on android auto. It's almost impossible to route plan, and completely impossible if you need to make changes to the recommended chargers, and you most certainly will as there are some terrible suggestions. (if they were going to partner for a company for info, why not Plugshare or ABRP?)

To me, it seems like Chevy hired 2 Brilliant developers. One created the MyChevy App (or whatever its called), and in his spare time worked on the user website. The other worked to allow certain aspects of the car to be controlled by the app, and in his spare time worked on Keypass. Once they got the car to be able to do neat little things like light up when you get close, display status on the phone, precondition and lock the doors from the phone.. Chevy decided to save some money by firing one of the devs and giving the other a 50% pay cut.
Its like they took the tech so far and then just stopped.

Finally, and not sure if this is Chevy, but while the interface to AA has improved, it seems we have lost features and reliability there as well.

One idea.. Chevy could deploy its own public charaging infrastruture.. sell more bolts, and use the profits to hire devs, fix bugs, imorove software instead of letting it flail in the wind, and be ahead of the EV curve.
 

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One idea.. Chevy could deploy its own public charaging infrastruture.. sell more bolts, and use the profits to hire devs, fix bugs, imorove software instead of letting it flail in the wind, and be ahead of the EV curve.
There is no money in selling the Bolt, and negative money in charging. The fact that the Bolt exists at all, and is a very good car, is a miracle itself.
 

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The other worked to allow certain aspects of the car to be controlled by the app, and in his spare time worked on Keypass.
Not he, but she.
Among her proudest achievements is Bluetooth technology that allows a car to communicate through a phone app without draining the car battery. The idea for Keypass鈥攁 product so cool GM made a commercial about it鈥攚as born in 2011 out of Amanda鈥檚 annoyance that she kept forgetting her car keys but never her phone.
Bloomberg Article
 

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We (the EV driving public) expect Chevy, and network providers such as EVgo, ChargePoint, Blink, EA, et. al. to accept the loss caused by the EV/EVSE imbalance. Yet, we desire and seek out the "free DCFC". Should we not, for those few long-distance trips we take each year, be willing to drive at 1/2 the cost of petrol travel (or even = to gas-price travel) instead of 1/5 the cost? Should we not decry free DCFC with its "encouragement to squat" and PAY those companies who installed and buy electricity for the DC Level 2 EVSE we use? The chicken/egg argument leans toward the "install the EVSE, they will buy the EV" side of the equation. The goal of "on-the-interstate-highway" DCFC EVSE is to make the trip POSSIBLE, NOT make it cheap to the tune of 10 year investment losses. We should be willing to pay our fair share or stay home!
 

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Companies like Nissan, Harley Davidson, Audi, and BMW have installed EV chargers at most of their dealerships and have allowed owners and sometimes the general public to charge. Those companies have also partnered with third party EV DC providers to provide actual charging.
I agree with your comment as a whole, and it's well worded. I wanted to point out that in Wisconsin and at Harley HQ, they put in 24 kWh DCFC chargers and although your point as a whole is that they indeed put their foot forward and put in the incentives for some dealers to install them ...... there still is an industry disconnect as a whole to put in the 'infrastructure.' I admit I'm wrong too most, maybe all, to suggest that Harley dealers could have put in not one charger, but 2???? And with a little more juice, if they truly have their eyes on the puck as their environment, save the planet BS, marketing material suggests. (Disclaimer: I'm all for saving the planet, but I don't think HD does just because their website says so, and I'm always skeptical when someone tells me they are ..... it's usually marketing and them lying to themselves which in itself is a big problem in this country).
 

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I thought most Chevy dealers have DCFC, albeit at 24kW, but still....
It would be great if the EA network was built out and working reliably. I don't know if throwing more money at that would fix it or not, but Ford has partnered with EA and Greenlots so that their EV customers can charge for free for two years. BMW and Nissan did a similar thing with EVgo a few years ago. Of course Tesla has their own network. It seems GM is the only manufacturer that hasn't been active in DCFC, except for their dealer "network" which I guess is funded by dealers, not GM.
 

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..... Yet, we desire and seek out the "free DCFC". Should we not, for those few long-distance trips we take each year, be willing to drive at 1/2 the cost of petrol travel (or even = to gas-price travel) instead of 1/5 the cost? Should we not decry free DCFC with its "encouragement to squat" and PAY those companies ......
There are those that will go out of their way for something free, completely oblivious that they are spending time (which is more valuable than the electrons) to charge for 'free' when they not only don't need to and quite simply could at home.... I hope the hospice fairy whispers in their ear at the right moment how many hours and days they spent charging when they could have been hugging their dog. But the people that truly are the problem, and we know who they are, live in such a bubble of denial that there's no fixing it.
 

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I thought most Chevy dealers have DCFC, albeit at 24kW, but still....
It would be great if the EA network was built out and working reliably. I don't know if throwing more money at that would fix it or not, but Ford has partnered with EA and Greenlots so that their EV customers can charge for free for two years. BMW and Nissan did a similar thing with EVgo a few years ago. Of course Tesla has their own network. It seems GM is the only manufacturer that hasn't been active in DCFC, except for their dealer "network" which I guess is funded by dealers, not GM.
The largest and newest Chevrolet dealership in my state (WI) which opened now about 3 or 4 years ago is not only not 'electrified.' as they educated me on when they told me they couldn't sell Bolt's, which they still do not see to this day, but they have 1 L2 charger that they ICE over that 100% on their lot because it's literally up front and center. It's not a fast one btw. The dealership I bought from, does NOT have an L2. When I took delivery of my car, It had 60 miles of charge on it. The night before, they plugged the OEM charger into a socket in service, but when they closed up service they use the breakers as light switches and the charger was a casualty of that process. It kind of sucked, because I didn't have an EVSE for a few weeks.
 

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There are those that will go out of their way for something free, completely oblivious that they are spending time (which is more valuable than the electrons) to charge for 'free' when they not only don't need to and quite simply could at home.... I hope the hospice fairy whispers in their ear at the right moment how many hours and days they spent charging when they could have been hugging their dog. But the people that truly are the problem, and we know who they are, live in such a bubble of denial that there's no fixing it.
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I can't think of a single time when a Chevrolet (or even another auto manufacturer's) dealership would have been at all convenient to a trip that required a DCFC. If they want to spend money, they should leverage/subsidize an exiting network.

And Harley. They're putting chargers into their showrooms so they can sell leather wrapped, branded beer cozies and underwear to those foolish enough to spend 30k on a bike that can be had for 15k from Zero.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
We (the EV driving public) expect Chevy, and network providers such as EVgo, ChargePoint, Blink, EA, et. al. to accept the loss caused by the EV/EVSE imbalance. Yet, we desire and seek out the "free DCFC". Should we not, for those few long-distance trips we take each year, be willing to drive at 1/2 the cost of petrol travel (or even = to gas-price travel) instead of 1/5 the cost? Should we not decry free DCFC with its "encouragement to squat" and PAY those companies who installed and buy electricity for the DC Level 2 EVSE we use? The chicken/egg argument leans toward the "install the EVSE, they will buy the EV" side of the equation. The goal of "on-the-interstate-highway" DCFC EVSE is to make the trip POSSIBLE, NOT make it cheap to the tune of 10 year investment losses. We dhould be willing to pay our fair share or stay home!
I am realist. I'm not expecting Chevy to install 400 kW chargers everywhere.. I don't expect Chevy to take a loss. I do expect Chevy to invest in its existing customers and products at least as much as the companies listed above. While it is true that GM lost on every bolt sale in the early days, the jury is still out if they are still taking losses on per unit sales. In addition, the huge expenditure was an investment into future tech and industry. The 'investment' is only lost if it doesn't pan out.. and there are two ways it doesn't pan out. If electric cars are not the way of the future; or if they are, and Chevy is not competitive in the market.
I've never, ever seen a DC charger that was free, or cost 1/5 or even 1/2 of gas. The chargers here, to charge are bolt, are on par with the per gallon cost if your car were to get 30mpg. However, I totally agree about paying a fair share for DC charging. Of Course.. if those DC chargers are not available.. its pretty hard to pay for them. And, if there is no charging network, people will be less inclined to buy an EV and less inclined to travel.
 

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Maybe Chevy should pull a Ford and just claim that all stations on Plugshare is part of their 'network'.

BTW, I calculated the estimated cost to DCFC the Bolt for a road trip, would cost 25%-50% more than gas for my RAV4 Hybrid. Being lots of miles, that would reduce my 'fuel' savings significantly. Next road trip, will probably still take the RAV4 Hybrid.
 

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I am realist. I'm not expecting Chevy to install 400 kW chargers everywhere.. I don't expect Chevy to take a loss. I do expect Chevy to invest in its existing customers and products at least as much as the companies listed above. While it is true that GM lost on every bolt sale in the early days, the jury is still out if they are still taking losses on per unit sales. In addition, the huge expenditure was an investment into future tech and industry. The 'investment' is only lost if it doesn't pan out.. and there are two ways it doesn't pan out. If electric cars are not the way of the future; or if they are, and Chevy is not competitive in the market.
I've never, ever seen a DC charger that was free, or cost 1/5 or even 1/2 of gas. The chargers here, to charge are bolt, are on par with the per gallon cost if your car were to get 30mpg. However, I totally agree about paying a fair share for DC charging. Of Course.. if those DC chargers are not available.. its pretty hard to pay for them. And, if there is no charging network, people will be less inclined to buy an EV and less inclined to travel.
I agree with all you say. I live in Huntington, WV. There are NO SAE/CCS plugs (>15 kW) in the entire State. In Columbus Easton Gateway, at which I have charged (DC Level 2) more than 10 times to and from my way to Ann Arbor, Toledo, & Bowling Green (OH), I have never paid to charge. The restaurants in the mall paid for the EVSE AND for the electricity. I , in turn, pay a "little more" to eat (which I have done each time). I drove (226 miles in the summertime) to Lexington, VA on my way to DC and paid nothing for DCFC. These were the closest until the Lancaster, OH DCFC opened a few months ago. These three, and some Cincinnati EVSE, remain the ONLY in-range DCFC to which I can travel. Lancaster was not free but I was happy to pay. My wife and I had a wonderful leisurely lunch and spent not one minute waiting for the charge to end. Ahh, that's the way to travel!
 

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There's a dealer in my sorta wider geographic area that has a 25kw dc charger in one of their service bays. Along with an L2 in the same spot. Used to be they'd let Chev's charge there. They don't anymore.
They put in a few 14/50 plugs up front. If you don't have an EVSE then they have one (more?) to let you borrow. So I plug in and hop in another car to go somewhere else while the car charged and the guy runs out and tells me I can't leave the car unattended. Seriously!? You want to me to stay with the car for upwards to 8 hours waiting for it to charge?! Ridiculous. I disconnected and left.
They won't see me ever again. I'm even likely moving to that town in a while and if I need any kind of servicing, I'll go to the place I bought it 2 hours away. I'd have to be dead in the water being towed there to have anything to do with them.

It's all just so cheap of these companies. At my household rate of $0.10/kwh for electricity, that comes to $6 for a zero - full charge. I'd be willing to pay $5 for them to look like an owner benefit even though I would rarely do such a full charge.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
It seems we all got talking about charging here, including myself.
My main point (my 'dislike') is about Chevy's divestment in end user tech. Charging and charging infrastructure is part of that tech.. and I did discuss that.. but I also discussed Keypass, Energy Assist, android auto.. etc.

Also.. while I wouldn't be opposed to it.. I did not bring up dealership DC charging to say that it 'should' be free.

I was comparing how 'arguably' smaller companies have made at least some commitment to charging tech, starting with offering DC chargers to customers of their EV's.. for free or not I'm not really sure, but at least those owners could charge at the very place they purchased from. (most likely HD's mindset, although a lot of their dealership here are right off the highway and would make an incredible charging network.)

Also, I think it's disappointing that nothing (tech-related) gets better for current owners of the Bolt. Not to say we should be getting OTA updates like some other companies, but my experience has
been;
Customer - "Keypass buggy on android" / Chevy - "We'll just remove it from the app."
Customer - "Backup camera not very clear" / Chevy "We'll just make the picture smaller, so the same low res will look a little better."
Customer - "There's a lack of chargers and reliability / Chevy "We'll just partner with charging companies to get consumer info - but we're not actually going to do anything"

The biggest thing that they did do was to develop their own app 'energy assist' and make it display on AA and probably ACP. They 'seemingly' went through a lot of trouble to do this based on how big of a deal they made the first the customer was able to display it on the car's screen.. and yet, in my opinion, it is STILL completely unusable.

There was already ABRP for Planning, and Plugshare for everything else. Couldn't they have partnered with either one of those companies (ABRP open source/ volunteer ??) .. or both to make a usable app that shows up on our car screens. But the obvious goal is that once they do get the software perfect, they'll make it part of the Onstar package, and charge a premium, and that option will only be available on the 2029, 3 years after everyone else has done it.

Now you may say, oh, but the new Bolts get 20 more miles per charge. Was that really Chevy, or was that LG?
 

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Chevy (GM) is a huge company, which has its advantages and disadvantages. One disadvantage is that it is certainly not a nimble company. It can't respond to customer complaints about its app and backup camera the way Tesla could because there are so many moving parts in just getting a car from design to out the door.

One advantage of such a structure is that the Bolt was apparently engineered to be rock solid from a safety / battery point of view.

Regarding adaptive cruise control, they could've obviously done that with the Bolt but only GM knows why it didn't. Perhaps the engineers and marketing wanted to but it was vetoed by management because the profit margin on the car was already so small or perhaps even negative, and they could argue that most of the people who were going to buy the Bolt would buy it anyway without ACC. They're right in my case, I would've loved ACC but it's definitely not a deal breaker for me.
 

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Thinking from a GM perspective, they want to sell a limited number of Bolts because there isn't profit in them. They don't want people with deep pockets who get top tier features like ACC to purchase the Bolt, but would rather have them purchase a more profitable vehicle and then load that one up. The people set on buying an affordable 200+ mile range EV were already going to buy the Bolt, and GM beat Tesla to market.

We've already heard that GM intends to utilize Cadillac as their EV brand, so we can expect the premium features to start showing up there.
 

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If GM could sell a million Bolts, I'm sure they would be happy to. Of course they lost money on the first Bolts, maybe still are. That isn't unusual for new tech. It was years before Toyota started to make a profit on the Prius. As for charging infrastructure, a consortium of EV manufacturers to build out the charging network would be a huge help. But, no need for free charging or manufacturer-branded charging stations. I don't mind paying as much for electricity on trips as I would pay for gas. I just want enough charging stations so that I can easily travel anywhere I want.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
But, no need for free charging or manufacturer-branded charging stations. I don't mind paying as much for electricity on trips as I would pay for gas. I just want enough charging stations so that I can easily travel anywhere I want.

HD is installing 24Kw chargers because that is what their e- bikes use. Nissan installed Cademo chargers at their dealerships and partnered with 3rd party vendors because that is what their cars use.

Chevy has been extraordinarily absent in infratstructure, partnerships, dealership charging, etc.

I dont mind paying for charges either.. however.. many of the pricing structures of 3rd party vendors are completely unfavorable to bolt owners vs either slower or faster charging vehicles. As a result we pay 2x what a tesla owner would pay at a super charger.. for 1/2 the rate.. or less.. and I believe Telsa has started to profit from charging.

It seems we fall in an 'unhappy' medium where we get charged a premium for 'fast' charging yet barely see a faster rate.

GM branded or partnered chargers would solve this problem. 80 Kw chargers would be 1/2 to 1/4 of the cost to install than 150/350 Kw.. So it's not unreal - again.. I am a realist.. to figure that GM.. or a partner could turn a profit form hypothetical 80kw units.
 

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Chevy has been extraordinarily absent in infratstructure, partnerships, dealership charging, etc.

GM branded or partnered chargers would solve this problem. 80 Kw chargers would be 1/2 to 1/4 of the cost to install than 150/350 Kw.. So it's not unreal - again.. I am a realist.. to figure that GM.. or a partner could turn a profit form hypothetical 80kw units.
Although GM could just pull a Ford and claim all J1772 and CCS Combo chargers are part of their 'network'.

The GM dealer does sell some never heard of brand wall EVSE along with their overpriced L1 portable EVSE.
 
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