Chevy Bolt EV Forum banner

1 - 18 of 18 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,486 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
ChargePoint recently received a large investment from Linse Capital, Braemar Energy Ventures and Constellation Energy. These new investors along with their previous investors; Kleiner Perkins, Rho Ventures, and strategic investors BMW iVentures and Siemens, will given them a total investment of around $164 million.

That means we'll be getting more public charging stations on top of the 28,000 systems they already have!

Good news for current adn future EV owners. Now if only we can get ICE vehicles to stop parking in the charging spaces...

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
59 Posts
There are a couple of stations in the DC region which are free, but then there are others such as EVGO which charges $6 plus $.20 a minute (max of %1.50 per hr) to charge if you don't pay a monthly membership fee of $15 and then it's only $.10 a minute (max of $1 per hour).
I wonder if this would be considered reasonable as compared to other regions?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,486 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
I don't think all of the funds will be used in NA only. They plan to move beyond NA into other countries like Europe and maybe even China. There's no timeline for the international markets so I assume NA will be the first to benefit from this investment.

I have no idea how much the average cost is. I looked on plugshare.com and some are free while others charge you per charge. I found one that uses ChargePoint and there's no payment required but you need a ChargePoint card. There's no standardized payment method or price so it's hard to compare.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
862 Posts
ChargePoint does not own ANY charging stations, so none of the money raised will directly provide additional public charging.

They sell EVSE's, both commercial and residential.

For commercial (public) installations, ChargePoint also provides the cloud-based software so businesses can set prices as well as automate payment processing, reporting, and analytics.

The owners of the equipment set pricing levels.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,031 Posts
That's pretty interesting. Pricing based off owners judgement (commercial wise). But there are charging stations for residential that also have the aid from solar panels as well.. or is that only Tesla that offers that ?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,486 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Thanks for clarifying that DucRider, I thought they were somewhat similar to Tesla where they do the installations themselves.

Maybe charging stations will employ the use of solar panels in the future. Envision Solar and ChargePoint are in a partnership and they're working on chargers that uses Envision's solar charging products. Would be great if we saw more solar trees at mall parking lots and such. They offer shade too!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
862 Posts
That's pretty interesting. Pricing based off owners judgement (commercial wise). But there are charging stations for residential that also have the aid from solar panels as well.. or is that only Tesla that offers that ?
Solar panels are independent of EVSE equipment. AFAIK, Tesla does not offer solar panels. Solar City is another Elon Musk venture, but they have nothing to do with EVSE's.
Tesla does sell the Powerwalls - battery storage that can be used with solar panels. However, almost all new solar installations are "grid-tied". The meter spins backwards when you are producing power, and you use electricity from the grid as needed. No battery involved.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,031 Posts
Solar panels are independent of EVSE equipment. AFAIK, Tesla does not offer solar panels. Solar City is another Elon Musk venture, but they have nothing to do with EVSE's.
Tesla does sell the Powerwalls - battery storage that can be used with solar panels. However, almost all new solar installations are "grid-tied". The meter spins backwards when you are producing power, and you use electricity from the grid as needed. No battery involved.
That was were my confusion was, I thought the Powerwalls were pretty much large solar panels, Thank you :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
786 Posts
Here in my home city of Bayamon Puerto Rico, there is a huge $4.5 million charging station next to the sports facilities and the Metro train station. It has three Chargepoint Level 2 EVSE that are free, but the EV owner must request a Chargepoint Card to use them. The engineer who designed and help built this is the owner of the only 2009 red Tesla Motors Roadster in Puerto Rico (I have seen it and have pictures), and also was the only user of this system. Now that BMW and Nissan sell their BEVs here, maybe some of their customers do vist this site for a free charge. I have not visited this site because I have no EV.

Here is a full article from 2011 (all in Spanish) that described the station (Call Solar Zone) and has several pictures:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=85540913

As more EVs appear in the market, the price for a private EVSE will drop below $100 for a Level 1 and below $200 for a Level 2 EVSE. But more BEVs such as the Bolt EV will move the market for private DCFCs below the $1,000 level. For now my Level 2 EVSE can charge any BEV (including the Bolt EV) overnight. If I had two BEVs at my home, then I will design, buld, and install my own DCFC station probably at 20 kW ( I can get a new 100 A and 230 VAC power feed from my utility).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
862 Posts
As more EVs appear in the market, the price for a private EVSE will drop below $100 for a Level 1 and below $200 for a Level 2 EVSE. But more BEVs such as the Bolt EV will move the market for private DCFCs below the $1,000 level. For now my Level 2 EVSE can charge any BEV (including the Bolt EV) overnight. If I had two BEVs at my home, then I will design, buld, and install my own DCFC station probably at 20 kW ( I can get a new 100 A and 230 VAC power feed from my utility).
Most (all?) EV's come with a level 1 charge cord, so not sure there is much of a retail market for L1 cordsets.

I think you may be underestimating the component cost on an L2. Cable and connector costs are a not insignificant factor. Flexible cabling and a 40A or better J1772 will be at least half that cost ($100 wholesale) for the forseeable future. You can ebay them for less, but this is most definitely a case of you get what you pay for.

DCFC for the home is an unlikely option. There is little to no advantage after the battery reached 80% charge. The charge rate tapers and a 40A L2 will be just as fast after it reaches that point.

Plus, DCFC equipment uses 3 phase 480v and it is unlikely you will have that available in your home. It is possible to design you own system, but it would be much more cost effective to install a second L2 EVSE. You could then plug in both cars and not have to worry about swapping the cable in the middle of the night.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,486 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
It's not just private investors that are getting on the green bandwagon. Heard Ontario was investing 20 million into their electric vehicle charging station network. Maybe more provinces and states will follow.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
786 Posts
Let me defend my points, one-by-one:

The Level 1 EVSE market will continue because many EV owners do want an extra EVSE, and most of these will be permanently installed in their homes to keep the factory included plug-in as a "spare" in the EV itself. This is to avoid the "removal and return" routine every time they have to charge.

The Level 2 EVSE are presently over $200 in stores. I saw one for over $300 in a store in Ft. Lauderdale. I predict their price "will drop below $200", so your comment supports my point. My own Level 2 EVSE cost me less than $200, and it is ready for up to 16 kW.

I am an EE with enough experience to design and build my own DCFC. There are kits on the market for DC chargers already. EMW, the makers of the "JuiceBox" that I have, has several kits (up to 25 kW) and already sell the CHAdeMo interface for Nissan Leafs. I asked and received a written reply that they are presently working on a SAE J1772 interface for the new Chevy Bolt EV.

AS I posted, I can get a new 100A, 230 VAC service feed from my utility. Their buried service transformer is across the street and will cost me less than $1,000 for the DCFC itself (up to 24 kW) plus the new cable pull and new power meter. You can't criticize just because you can't do it yourself, but I can! For a fully discharged Bolt EV, I can recharge over 100 miles as I stop for lunch at home (my own "Supercharger").

I will only do it if I have two BEVs. I can still keep my Level 2 EVSE, but I also plan to post my DCFC station on PlugShare, too, as my Level 2 is there now (look for "Raymond" in Puerto Rico). Then I will offer my charging station to other EVs for a fee.

Here is the EMW DC charger kit page:
https://emotorwerks.com/index.php/store-juicebox-ev-charging-stations/dc-charging-systems/product/listing
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,486 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
Unfortunately, I'm not as adept as you when it comes to electric installations but if you can do it and have enough electric cars to use it, I don't see why not. Would be great if more of these in house superchargers were installed and open for public use.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
862 Posts
Unfortunately, I'm not as adept as you when it comes to electric installations but if you can do it and have enough electric cars to use it, I don't see why not. Would be great if more of these in house superchargers were installed and open for public use.
Raymond may indeed be an EE, but the numbers he are giving you are way off.

The DCFC units he is pointing to are closer to $3000, and that's without the cable, CCS connector & ccs charge controller. The CHAdeMO versions from them add $1600 (no CCS available at this time). Plus they require 3 phase AC, so you would need to live next to a commercial/industrial area as that is not something found in residential neighborhoods. A very simplified explanation of 3 phase AC power is that it essentially combines 3 "normal" service lines allowing high powered equipment to run with lower amperage. This allows for much smaller (and thus less expensive) wires, cables, relays, etc. As an example, a 50kW DCFC unit would require 200A single phase service, but 3 phase would bring the requirement down to 60A. Raymond says he can get an additional 240VAC service line run, but he in fact needs three separate transformers near his house to provide 3 phase (to use the equipment he refers to in his posts). This is almost never found in residential neighborhoods, and the cost for the utility company to run additional lines from a substation and install additional transformers would be way too much to even consider. 3 phase service would probably also be subject to commercial rates, and is often subject to demand charges.

He also claims he built an L2 EVSE for under $200, and the parts alone are more than that. EMW used to sell JuiceBox kits, but never at that low of a price. He may have scavenged them used, but if you are looking to buy an EVSE for a Bolt, you'll likely want at least a 30A unit (requires a dedicated 40A 240V circuit similar to a stove or oven). The 40A JuiceBox from Electronic Motor Werks is $500 (more for the "smart" version).

His signature indicates a 16kW JuiceBox, which they do not (and never have AFAIK) offer. That would be a 66.67A (@240V AC which is how EMW rates them) unit and require a dedicated 100A circuit and breaker and 4 AWG copper or better wiring.

I appreciate his enthusiasm, but some of what he is posting could create unrealistic expectations for those new to EV's.

As a general rule, a "full speed" L2 (240V AC) EVSE for the Bolt will run $500+, and installation will average around $300-400. Geographic location, site conditions and many other factors will affect installation costs, and prices can and will vary greatly.

My installation costs were ~$100 for the permit/inspection and ~$60 for wire, conduit and breaker. I do all my own electrical work and am comfortable doing so - most people will likely need to hire an electrician and that will add to the cost. The Honda Fit EV program provides a Leviton EVSE and installation kit with a NEMA 14-50 outlet, so I had no other costs.

DCFC installations (50kW) average around $50K. BMW does offer a slower 24kW version to "partners" for $6,458. Bosch sell the same unit for $9,995. They still require 3 phase AC input. There is a reason you don't see DCFC in homes. If fully charging over night isn't fast enough, you could charge at public DCFC stations (requiring payment) thousands of times and still pay only a fraction of what it would cost to have one at home. And DCFC is no faster than L2 once battery capacity reaches about 80%. L2 is also no faster than L1 after ~95%. As the battery gets "full" the charge rate tapers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,486 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
Thanks for breaking it down for everyone DucRider. I didn't really expect the average person to be able to get a DCFC for personal use, mostly because of the cost barrier but I wasn't aware that you need 240VAC service lines to be able to even use the units.

The basic charger is enough for my general needs and what residents aren't able to install, I assume the public charger providers will.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
862 Posts
Thanks for breaking it down for everyone DucRider. I didn't really expect the average person to be able to get a DCFC for personal use, mostly because of the cost barrier but I wasn't aware that you need 240VAC service lines to be able to even use the units.

The basic charger is enough for my general needs and what residents aren't able to install, I assume the public charger providers will.
3 Phase (in the US) is almost always 480V, but specs allow for 400-480V on most DCFC units.
 
1 - 18 of 18 Posts
Top