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More fast charging stations just for Bolts! (unfortunately only Maven Bolts)

17K views 85 replies 23 participants last post by  raitchison 
#1 ·
#3 ·
On the negative side, us normal Bolt owners can't use these Maven EVgo stations. Pretty mixed bag IMO. I guess it's a very slight net positive.


(thinking out loud here)
$1,000/Month+ to rent a Bolt.
A 2017 survey by RideShareGuy blog found that drivers earned an average of $15.68 and $17.50 per hour at Uber and Lyft, respectively. But these are gross earnings, and it’s unclear what a driver’s real profits would be after expenses are factored in.
Expenses are the vehicle and associated cost, which is what Maven purports to solve. Using Lyft driver revenue, and assuming a single fixed cost with Maven (Free charging for the moment) of $300/week...a Lyft driver working 40 hours/week would need to work about 18 hours a week to pay the Maven expense. The remaining 23 hours would net them $402. Or about $20,000/year pre-tax.

U.S. Minimum wage is $7.25 average computes to $14,500/year pre-tax.

This could work as an additional income stream for a motivated individual, especially if they already have a main day-gig.
 
#7 ·
(thinking out loud here)
$1,000/Month+ to rent a Bolt.

Expenses are the vehicle and associated cost, which is what Maven purports to solve. Using Lyft driver revenue, and assuming a single fixed cost with Maven (Free charging for the moment) of $300/week...a Lyft driver working 40 hours/week would need to work about 18 hours a week to pay the Maven expense. The remaining 23 hours would net them $402. Or about $20,000/year pre-tax.

U.S. Minimum wage is $7.25 average computes to $14,500/year pre-tax.

This could work as an additional income stream for a motivated individual, especially if they already have a main day-gig.
Always appreciate your numbers approach to things to keep things in perspective.

Most leases include mileage limits, but if this service had no limits and free charging, it might make sense for full-time Uber/Lift drivers. My friend drives for Uber and Lift and averages about 200 miles per day. Depreciation is his biggest expense by far, but fuel is another. I wonder what those 2 expenses combined amount to in a typical month? At least with privately owned vehicles, the monthly payment builds equity in the vehicle so that there is residual value when it is paid off. There is no residual value in leasing a vehicle.
 
#10 ·
Really? The first mainstream automotive company to develop, produce, and sell a 238-mile EV at a sub $40,000 price is tone deaf? Does it make sense that people who will be Maven participants will not have L2 charging infrastructure installed at their home, so giving them priority at a public charging station supports the business case for car sharing where the cost of using the transportation device includes maintenance and fuel?
 
#11 ·
Very tone deaf indeed. The specs for the car aren't germane to this discussion. As person that actually bought a car, I expect to be treated at least equally to a person who is leasing. I have much more "skin in the game". GM is telling us, clearly and loudly, we are second class customers. I've bought several new GM vehicles in resent years. I was actually thinking of get a Volt this summer for a trip car. At this point, that doesn't look likely.
 
#13 ·
Very tone deaf indeed. The specs for the car aren't germane to this discussion. As person that actually bought a car, I expect to be treated at least equally to a person who is leasing. I have much more "skin in the game". GM is telling us, clearly and loudly, we are second class customers. I've bought several new GM vehicles in resent years. I was actually thinking of get a Volt this summer for a trip car. At this point, that doesn't look likely.
It is apparent you emotionally bruise quite easily. You are the one arguing the specs of the car are exactly germane to the discussion. If the Maven company was renting only gasoline cars to it's customers you'd not even have an issue, because the gasoline car could be recharged at any gas station in the USA. Maven isn't a leasing company, it is a transportation device rental company, which supplies the fuel as part of the rental price, so it must have some type of priority electrical recharge point to support the model of providing the electric fuel as part of the Bolt rental price. It is a completely different business model than either purchasing or leasing a Bolt. You are making a false comparison and getting upset about it. You are now not going to buy a Chevy Volt because you are ignorant in the understanding of the business case for the Maven transportation company. Put your money where your insulted mouth is and go sell your recently purchased Bolt (and take the huge depreciation hit) and buy a different EV. In fact go buy a Tesla Model S, X, or 3 so you can have a company-owned priority charging system all to yourself.

Sorry, but your bashing of GM is unwarranted in this case.
 
#8 ·
So I actually signed up for Maven way back in September, a full 5 months before I ended up buying my Bolt, for the express purpose of being able to "rent" a Bolt so I could get a very extended several hours long test drive. As soon as I signed up I found two problems:


  • The closest Maven location was 15 miles away from me, with most of them being well over 20 miles away. I live in Los Angeles which is one of the original Maven markets too but there weren't many locations and none of them were remotely convenient.
  • Even if I was willing to drive 20-25 miles away (easily an hour even with light (by L..A. Standards) traffic) to get into a Bolt there simply weren't any available in the system. I could get a Volt (lots of them) or an ICE vehicle but could not find the one car I was looking for even if I was willing to look a month in the future. I tried this multiple times over at least a 2 month period too and not once could I find a Bolt available within 50 miles of me.

Needless to say the whole Maven experience was beyond disappointing. I did still end up buying a Bolt in February, and I'm happy with it so far but yeah Maven was useless.

Also, the Maven app is pretty crappy, of course now that I've experienced the steaming pile of excrement that is the My Chevrolet app the Maven app is looking pretty decent.

Now they want to expend precious resources building L3 chargers that seemingly won't even ever be used.
 
#17 ·
Wishful thinking: GM eventually sees the futility of locking these EVSEs to the Maven service exclusively... And opens them up to be Bolt-only.;
Still the wrong approach. The Maven folks need exclusive parking and priority charging. But exclusive charging really should not be needed. CCS can do both automatic authentication and dynamic power sharing. So putting Maven folks in a walled garden, and sharing the power, with Maven folks getting as much as they can take, would accomplish the same thing and leave room for public charging too.

ga2500ev
 
#12 ·
I don't quite get the animus towards GM here - nor am I arguing GM is on the ball. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Maven is GM's version of Zipcar. They have reserved parking spots so that renters can retrieve or return cars easily. For locations with plug-ins, it makes sense for GM to place L3 chargers there so that customers can pickup a car with a decent state of charge. While I'd love the EV infrastructure to be better, I also kinda hope it will be manufacturer agnostic in the same way I'm glad there are no GM gas stations (or Tesla only + Nissan only + VW only, etc). I'm not sure what GM may or may not be doing behind the scenes, but it sure seems they could be doing more to promote the use of their products.

Obviously, at the end of the day I'd rather have a 240 mile Bolt without a charging tie-in than a 110 mile Leaf with one.
 
#15 ·
I don't quite get the animus towards GM here...
I agree. This is basically part of their Maven infrastructure, and it essentially has nothing to do with public charging. It wouldn't surprise me in the least to find that the chargers they're installing are designed with a potential capability to automatically plug into the autonomous cars that GM is planning to deploy with their ridesharing service.
 
#14 ·
I installed a Level 2 charger at home, and literally nobody else in the world can use it. Chevy also sells them, so that customers can charge exclusively in their garages. Maven-only chargers are the same thing, just owned by a company not a person.

Also because of my Level 2 charger at home, I'm not worried about finding power at those types of locations anyway. My concern will be finding DCFCs along the I5 or US 101 corridors on longer treks.
 
#18 ·
Here's the problem: everyone isn't you. Neither technically, or emotionally. Technically, there are folks who simply do not have the ability to put in a charging station at their home or work. The Bolt can actually fill this niche pretty well as long as there is public DCFC charging available.

Then there's the emotional frustration that others have expressed. GM has been explicit that they have no plans to deploy a charging network while selling electric vehicles. Then as part of a complementary transportation service GM deploys a charging infrastructure and then locks their own customers completely out of it. It really doesn't matter why they are doing it. What's important is that a large swath of Bolt owners are going to be really ticked off when they see Bolts charging somewhere convenient and there's no opportunity to use that infrastructure. Or even worse, the infrastructure in place and no cars there charging at all.

GM had a chance to promote their EV program, open another profit center, engender owner loyalty and do it all without impacting Maven at all.

Not smart at all.

ga2500ev
 
#21 ·
EV long distance driving - practical and fun.

Charging at home is one of the biggest advantages of the Bolt EV. I save that 6 minutes of refueling an ICE car every time I arrive home. The only time that 72 miles per 30 minutes is important is on long distance driving, which is relatively rare for most people who use their car mainly for routine trips to work, shopping, or visiting relatives and friends within the 238 round trip range of a Bolt EV. Further, long distance driving necessitates stopping for a break, for most people, so that 30 minutes or so is not necessarily enforced by the car, but, more often than not, coincides with food and bathroom breaks. A long distance drive of 450 miles might involve only 2 or 3 such breaks and is not a small distance for any long-distance drive whether in an ICE or EV. For me, the only disadvantage of EV charging is when it happens to be at a gas station, where I have to put up with the polluting odor of gasoline.

Many of the philosophies about charging an EV often come down to those who are repeating some basic facts that enable them to invent objections to owning a Bolt EV, or a Tesla, without actually having any experience whatsoever in owning and using an EV. I would say that those who own an EV, and use it for long distance driving find it to be practical and fun.
 
#29 ·
At the end of the day post is actually about: don’t buy a bolt if there’s not sufficient, publicly accessible charging infrastructure near you or you plan to install a level 2 charger at home.

Or if you absolutely *must* have cross country travel capabilities with the perfect charging network, go put down your M3 reservation and start waiting. There’s nothing wrong with that either, it’s just not what GM is trying to build right now.
 
#36 · (Edited)
I see this two ways.

Had I held out for (and assuming I could afford - not sure) the Tesla Model 3, it would be nice to know the charging infrastructure is there and I could use it.
Since I did not, I knew GM wasn't investing in charging infrastructure and that the majority (90% est.) of my charging would be at home, I'm ok with the current state of things.

Would I like to have a CCS network that could get me from here to family and friends and make a road trip possible? - absolutely.
Do I expect the Gov't or Auto manufacturers or dealers to pay for it? - no.

When is Shell, BP, etc.. going to wake up and roll out CCS in their existing stations?
Start with one or two and charge and arm & a leg for use.
People will pay for convenience.

What I don't like is more "supercharger" like infrastructure being deployed that is limited as to who can use it. Open it up, charge for it - first come/first serve - this will bring in more revenue and help us all.

my 2 cents...
 
#37 ·
When is Shell, BP, etc.. going to wake up and roll out CCS in their existing stations?
Start with one or two and charge and arm & a leg for use.
People will pay for convenience.


A local gas station chain in Las Vegas has a dozen EVgo DCFC's at it's locations. Probably invested well North of $1.5M.
At $5 + .20¢/Min. (Electricity cost here is about 11¢ kWh). Every time I pass any of these stations the chargers are almost always idle. The fact of the matter is there are some gas stations that have 'rolled out' fairly extensive CCS DCFC facilities. But it seems that their efforts and investments go unnoticed, conveniently ignored, unappreciated, and largely unused. A business model that simply can not survive considering EV's ARE NOT ICEv's, and thus don't have the same recurring retail fueling requirements ... for cryin' out loud.

I feel the whole DCFC charging network necessity argument is utterly absurd on it's face. It is more of a coded complaint that Bolt owners can not brag of having a Tesla-like network. Of course the parroted response is; "..bu, bu, but I want to drive across country from time-to-time, and it's soo inconvenient in a Bolt". To that I say; and I want a vehicle that will allow me or my passengers to take a dump while driving without having to stop, Tesla can't do that, but an RV can. Therefore an RV is the correct tool for that task. BEV's aren't for everyone...no more than RV's are. Get over it.

I am not singling anyone out individually here - I strongly suggest that all of those clamoring for a DCFC network, put their money where their Entitled Mouths are and invest in a company like EVgo. EVgo's CEO's name is Cathy Zoi and she can be reached at (855) 509-5581. Sign up for a $10/Month membership...even if one never uses them to show ones financial commitment. Or even just send them an email supporting their business: press@evgo.com

Perhaps Vegas is totally unique with respect to the number of DCFC stations?
 
#41 · (Edited)
A local gas station chain in Las Vegas has a dozen EVgo DCFC's at it's locations. Probably invested well North of $1.5M.
At $5 + .20¢/Min. (Electricity cost here is about 11¢ kWh). Every time I pass any of these stations the chargers are almost always idle. The fact of the matter is there are some gas stations that have 'rolled out' fairly extensive CCS DCFC facilities. But it seems that their efforts and investments go unnoticed, conveniently ignored, unappreciated, and largely unused. A business model that simply can not survive considering EV's ARE NOT ICEv's, and thus don't have the same recurring retail fueling requirements ... for cryin' out loud.

I feel the whole DCFC charging network necessity argument is utterly absurd on it's face. It is more of a coded complaint that Bolt owners can not brag of having a Tesla-like network. Of course the parroted response is; "..bu, bu, but I want to drive across country from time-to-time, and it's soo inconvenient in a Bolt". To that I say; and I want a vehicle that will allow me or my passengers to take a dump while driving without having to stop, Tesla can't do that, but an RV can. Therefore an RV is the correct tool for that task. BEV's aren't for everyone...no more than RV's are. Get over it.

I am not singling anyone out individually here - I strongly suggest that all of those clamoring for a DCFC network, put their money where their Entitled Mouths are and invest in a company like EVgo. EVgo's CEO's name is Cathy Zoi and she can be reached at (855) 509-5581. Sign up for a $10/Month membership...even if one never uses them to show ones financial commitment. Or even just send them an email supporting their business: press@evgo.com

Perhaps Vegas is totally unique with respect to the number of DCFC stations?

Yes Vegas is unique, no one will argue with that. I used to live there. Now I live in the great white north. Only DCFCs here are in Goodwill lots and only in the Twin Cities. a trip up to Duluth is possible but not really anywhere else without reducing charging to Level 2.

Why is it entitled to want access to DCFC and being willing to pay for it?

More electric cars are coming. If DCFC/CCS is the standard - would make sense to me for some enterprising organization to adopt it and charge what is needed to recoup their costs, cover maintenance & make a profit. They don't have to roll out to every location - just place a few where there aren't any to get started...

I see organizations like EVGO and Chargepoint offer ways to submit for new locations but they typically want an address, business owner and someone to pay for the equipment.

No doubt, DCFC/CCS is not a requirement but it opens up new possibilities in the Bolt, which I enjoy driving - sorry if that angers any - my comment on gas stations getting on-board was not meant as a rant but more of an embracing the evolution of transportation query....

https://imgur.com/a/sUJCG
 
#44 · (Edited)
Why is it entitled to want access to DCFC and being willing to pay for it?
As you all have noticed, I have a bug up my arse on this subject.
"The total cost of [public DCFC for a bare bones commercial] ChargePoint Express 200/-plug purchase and installation came in at around $50,000". This doesn't include ongoing Maintenance, Insurance, or Electricity expenses. A business needs to see some ROI. This can be hard ROI ; charging revenues & membership royalties, or soft ROI; patronizing the establishment & community goodwill. Assuming a gross margin of $3 per EV charging event, it would take 16,666 EV customer charging instances to break even.

As I recall, about 5% of Tesla owners use 90% of the Tesla charging infrastructure. Using that as a basis, there are 30,000 Bolts nationwide, and only 1500 owners will use chargers 90% of the time. For this single DCFC investment above, a Bolt (or other CCS enabled DC fast charge EV) would need to charge there 9.25 times/day for 5 years.

They're lucky if they get one a day. At 2 per day, that's 3,650 revenue generating charge events over 5 years to reach ROI. So they would need to price their charging at about $15 to connect, and 20cents/min with a one hour minimum ($32 to get an additional 90 miles max), just to break even over 5 years. This exercise exudes the added risk of new, longer range EV's (which reduce the need for charging), and competition from the DCFC at the burger joint across the street. This is all guesstimates on my part, but you can plug in your own numbers. Basically, I'm saying that whats required is what, ostensibly, Tesla does - a pre-paid subscription that funds a charging network.

When you say you're willing to pay for it, are you willing to...like Tesla owners, pony up $5,000 extra at time of Bolt purchase for the Privilege?
Tesla owners have this cost built into the mix at purchase. It's a premium they are paying up front for, even though 90% are subsidizing the 5%. If every GM Bolt owner is reluctant to pay this premium, and yet demand GM stand up some national charging network, I consider that an "Entitlement Mentality"

An entitlement mentality is a state of mind in which an individual comes to believe that privileges are instead rights, and that they are to be expected as a matter of course.
The lack of a remotely comprehensive inter-city DCFC network is absolutely a valid complaint. Yes driving cross country is something that people rarely do but trips of 300-500 miles? A lot of people make those kinds of trips at least once per year and the inability to make such a trip in an EV is a barrier to people choosing an EV for their primary vehicle. The whole notion that people can just rent an ICE vehicle when they need to take a longer trip is borderline absurd, few people are willing to go through that kind of hassle.
Look at this: http://evadoption.com/statistics-of...icle-charging-stations-chargers-and-networks/
and
Public charging stations don’t scale

Plenty in L.A. and plenty in Vegas, but only a single station (as of this writing) between them, in Victorville. There's one more that's coming online "soon" along the route in Baker, but even once that one becomes operational the only way to drive between L.A. and Vegas in a Bolt are either to plan for two charging stops in each direction or planning on driving your battery down WAY past most people's comfort zones (I estimate I'd roll into Baker with about 20 miles of range remaining).
Yes, multiple public DCFC's along highway corridors would be great! But there would need to be perhaps a 15% EV adoption rate overall for it to make financial sense.

This is what we need to do: I'm estimating cost for these companies like EVgo and Charge Point from edu'macated guesstimates I'm pulling out of my arse. I will email Charge Point and EVgo, invite them into the forum, and see if they will not only accept, but speak FRANKLY about their business model, their finance forecast model, and what's needed for them to become profitable.
 
#52 ·
I get that but really what CCS cars were there before 2017? The i3 and some Sparks?

Also, the Bolt was announced in Feb 2015 and was unveiled in production form in Jan 2016. I will grant that charge networks like ChargePoint and EVgo had no way to know that it would be as successful as it has been but they still had plenty of time to get ready and start seeding the inter-city CCS network.
 
#51 ·
My kingdown for a CCS station or 2 in Western MD. Would make trips to Deep Creek Lake much, much easier. Would even allow potential ski trips to Wisp Ski Resort possible in the winter. But nope, still nothing. Western MD is a fast charging desert.

It's ironic that there are so many CCS stations in the Baltimore area, because most of them I'll never use because I'll always have plenty of range in my Bolt. The only CCS stations in MD I've used because I *needed* to charge are 1 enroute to Ocean City, and the ones at the travel plazas in NE MD.
 
#56 ·
If you look at a map of the United States, towns are equally spaced along railway tracks. This was an artifact of the steam locomotive. Water was needed at regular intervals. Many of these towns still flourish today even though the steam locomotive is long gone.

I see a business opportunity with chargers, not in making money off of charging, but in the real estate. Buy cheap land along highways and bring in the power. Then resell the land at a nice tidy profit. Little Oases for people to spend an hour and maybe spend some money during their stay. Very few gas stations make their money off of gas. It's the rest of the infrastructure that brings in the profit.

Also, existing towns along highways need to get their chamber of commerce to get involved with local businesses to attract highway traffic. Many towns have been affected with highway systems that have bypassed them. This is an opportunity for all.
 
#86 ·
OK @shotel a number of topics here.

As for the viability of PHEVs as a bridge to EV ownership. PHEVs solve the range problem but they have their own problems, for example that you still need to perform most of the same maintenance tasks that you need to in a regular Hybrid or ICE vehicle and their lower capacity batteries is more likely to be discharged to a very low SOC which will adversely impact battery lifetime and potentially sour buyers of EVs in general.

My brother has a Gen 1 Volt and he's pretty happy with it. Of course he blows off the maintenance on the ICE for all his cars, he rents (leases) all his cars and the neglected maintenance never catches up with him before the car has to go back.

I know that I did not consider a PHEV when I was considering what car to buy, I also know that even if I were to consider a PHEV I would never have considered a Volt. At the same time I'm probably going to be looking at the CMax Energi when the time comes to replace my wife's Forester in a couple years.

The popularity of SUVs and CUVs despite their lack of suitability for the overwhelming majority of people who purchase them sells the idea that people are told what to think. Buy a minivan or station wagon? Nooooo can't do that those are uncool instead I'll buy an SUV like all the other soccer moms because the commercials have been telling me how very cool they are for more than 20 years now. Never mind that these are the most profitable vehicles that car companies sell.

I actually think it's highly insulting to Musk to compare him to Jobs. Jobs was nothing but a slick salesman who's most well known for being an a-hole. He took products that already existed, polished them up a bit and sold them for enormous profit. The only significant Apple products that were highly innovative were the original Macintosh and the original iPod (and maaaaybe the iPad) . It's true that Jobs had (arguably still has) and Musk has a cult following of sorts but there's a long list of technological innovations attached to his resume and no sign of that letting up. I will grant that there's a high level of overlap between Apple buyers/fans and Tesla buyers/fans.
 
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